Proposal: Give Dallas a scorer

bernmeister

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Jun 11, 2010
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Panarin has nothing to do with the deal and isn't a guarantee and either is Kravtsov. You're "looking ahead of the curve" but you're under the mindset that everything will work out way you think it will, completely shoving aside the notion of possible failure of 1. The Rangers acquiring Panarin and 2. Kravtsov panning out to what you think he can become.
Not a reasonable criticism, based on percentages.
Sure, we have seen in recent years there is no change from the history of how high picks can disappoint. Even a top pick can bust.
However, Kravtsov on paper and more importantly as to the eye test, looks very, very, very good - like most of Kreider's raw physicality + touch and scoring ability. There are also musings on our board somewhere that he has played C, or something else to the effect he would make a great pivot due to his vision. While I hate that we passed up on some other jewels, I got no complaints here.
Yes, I am acknowledging that therefore what remains is chemistry, and you don't know that until you experiment. But there is no reason to be pessimistic. He would be likely our top line, perhaps top 6. Who's there after my deal above, and we ship Lias+ for a top D prospect? Kreider, Chytil, Hayes, probably Panarin. Add Kratsov, that's 5. The weak link is Nieves, assuming he is not replaced by Kratsov at pivot. I have said Nieves in a vacuum is not a 1C; I have insisted we be open minded to see if he has chemistry with Kreider and the ideal RW, which is a reasonable hunch, given N's size and speed, solid defensive work, and ability to take draws/match up. He might cut it, he might not. But it costs us nothing to try, and we have an obligation to be open minded and go there. Nieves however, is only 1 piece of that equation. Other 1C options exist if the Nieves experiment fails. Howden looks like a bonafide 3C on day 1, with zip NHL experience beyond these few games to date. He looks like a good alternate to center K[reider] and K[ratsov].
So as to the above, that is more than reasonable.
Not a given, but strong %age wise.
Panarin is a totally known commodity.
Again, chemistry is a reality.
But no reason to think he will be ineffective esp since the top 6 above have talent, ability and potential to excel as a group.

So you're willing to give up core pieces in one big deal where the Rangers lose HORRIBLY value wise to in essence, take a gigantic gamble on bunch of futures, when three of the four pieces being moved by the Rangers are well shy of 30 years old.
The premise here is that if there is SO much on the table, Nil can't say no. That is a necessary sacrifice if you want a blue chip this intense a degree of blue. And it is a coin flip for Dallas. Either they don't want to go all in, and want to parallel Sabes' Eichel and Dahlin with Seguin and Heiskanen, each a C and a D anchor. Or, they figure we have our franchise level guy in Seguin now and locked up, if I am getting enough overpay now, I can kill it with the rest of the lineup, and go for win now, letting Heisk go.
Sure Zib + Buch + Skjei are mid 20s. We are getting younger but that is not the key here.
What this is about, and what naysayers are ignoring, is that to win in today's NHL, you must have a difference maker. Doughty, Stamkos, Crosby [and to lesser extent, banged up Malkin], McDavid, Matthews, Eichel, EK, etc., and most recently Ovie obviously carrying the Caps by sheer force of will over a good and gritty VGK team. The last team to buck this trend was the pre McAvoy, pre emerging Pasta Bruins.
The Rangers do not have a guy at this level. Kreider can do most of it, but he unfortunately does not have the shot to finish. He needs a scorer, or someone else who can force defenders to pay enough attention that better percentage shots for everybody emerge.

Heiskanen could still fall on his face, but the eye test says no, he's already arrived. He WOULD be to us what Letang has been as a difference maker for Pens, perhaps only better.

That's not good asset management at all, Bernie. You're selling for pennies on the dollar. Zuccarello alone could get a first being dealt separately at the deadline.
The Rangers need to add more horses, on that I think we agree.
But continuation of what started last yr [moving McDonagh, etc], will get us there as we continue to swap experience and established value for youth and potential.
However, getting a 1st is NOT the same as getting a 3OA, and more importantly, a guy who so far, eye test, is can't miss.
More horses is not enough.
We a need a Triple Crown winner to augment them.

You don't dictate the terms of Heiskanen because that much talent doesn't normally become available. You either say you can or cannot afford the overpay, and decide accordingly. But if you can, you take the deal, even if it effs up --- to a correctable and manageable extent --- the rest of the roster; and you do that b'c a franchise player is necessary [not for a winning club but to go beyond to seek the cup], and availability is EXTREMELY rare.

Dallas won't do it because they value Heiskanen more than anyone in the organization, sans Seguin, Benn and Klingberg.
Like I've explained there is a fork for Nil to consider.
Does he keep Heiskanen to add to Seguin?
Or does he say this is too much to pass up, I immediately become Cup favorite, I only need to keep an eye out for a little better D or G to get
even stronger?

From the Rangers perspective, this would be a fireable offense for Gorton.
If they retained the core depth I indicated above and added Heiskanen, no it would not be.

Thanks for the share.
 

bernmeister

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Jun 11, 2010
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I'd do the deal in a heartbeat probably. Not everyday you get an entire 2nd line and a top 4 dman (and a pretty young group at that) in a trade while dumping 2 contracts and including a 3rd liner and a likely late 1st. Would hurt to give up Heiskanen but that deal would make us very powerful offensively and Skjei fills his LD spot nicely. Spezza would likely not waive his NTC for the Rangers though cause he just wants to contend and if the Rangers give up that package they're pretty far from contending lol.

Our lineup could look like this if that deal happened:

Benn-Seguin-Radulov
Buchnevich-Zibanejad-Zuccarello
Janmark-Faksa-Nichushkin
Dickinson/Hintz-Shore-Ritchie
Smith

Lindell-Klingberg
Skjei-Johns
Methot-Carrick/Honka
Polak

With that being said, Nill would still turn it down just because I seriously don't think he'd move Heiskanen for anything. I'd do it though honestly

Thanks for the analysis, which jives with my perspectives. I say it is 50-50 that Nill does this for the same reason as you, it's too much to leave on the table, and he still has Seguin locked up 8 yrs to be that franchise guy anchor. In fact, if he does this, Seguin is more comfortable b'c he is the undisputed alpha male leader of the club, w/Heiskanen no longer in the picture.

That is a good observation on Spezza.
To defeat that, I say to him, look, make this deal, and I will authorize your agent to talk to everyone, and we'll eat 50% to give you away to the contender of your choice. We'll make it easy for them. All they gotta do is pick up the 3.75m balance of your current deal. I mean conditional 7th kind of easy.

The Stars are not a lock without this deal.
If he kills it, he takes his chances.
 

One Winged Angel

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May 3, 2006
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Not a reasonable criticism, based on percentages.
Sure, we have seen in recent years there is no change from the history of how high picks can disappoint. Even a top pick can bust.
However, Kravtsov on paper and more importantly as to the eye test, looks very, very, very good - like most of Kreider's raw physicality + touch and scoring ability. There are also musings on our board somewhere that he has played C, or something else to the effect he would make a great pivot due to his vision. While I hate that we passed up on some other jewels, I got no complaints here.

So you're banking on Kravtsov playing center on top of all of that?!? Holy shit.

Yes, I am acknowledging that therefore what remains is chemistry, and you don't know that until you experiment. But there is no reason to be pessimistic. He would be likely our top line, perhaps top 6. Who's there after my deal above, and we ship Lias+ for a top D prospect? Kreider, Chytil, Hayes, probably Panarin. Add Kratsov, that's 5. The weak link is Nieves, assuming he is not replaced by Kratsov at pivot. I have said Nieves in a vacuum is not a 1C; I have insisted we be open minded to see if he has chemistry with Kreider and the ideal RW, which is a reasonable hunch, given N's size and speed, solid defensive work, and ability to take draws/match up. He might cut it, he might not. But it costs us nothing to try, and we have an obligation to be open minded and go there. Nieves however, is only 1 piece of that equation. Other 1C options exist if the Nieves experiment fails. Howden looks like a bonafide 3C on day 1, with zip NHL experience beyond these few games to date. He looks like a good alternate to center K[reider] and K[ratsov].
So as to the above, that is more than reasonable.
Not a given, but strong %age wise.
Panarin is a totally known commodity.
Again, chemistry is a reality.
But no reason to think he will be ineffective esp since the top 6 above have talent, ability and potential to excel as a group.

What is with you and Nieves? He doesn't stand a chance of being a top-6 center. You need to stop penciling him in there.

The premise here is that if there is SO much on the table, Nil can't say no. That is a necessary sacrifice if you want a blue chip this intense a degree of blue. And it is a coin flip for Dallas. Either they don't want to go all in, and want to parallel Sabes' Eichel and Dahlin with Seguin and Heiskanen, each a C and a D anchor. Or, they figure we have our franchise level guy in Seguin now and locked up, if I am getting enough overpay now, I can kill it with the rest of the lineup, and go for win now, letting Heisk go.
Sure Zib + Buch + Skjei are mid 20s. We are getting younger but that is not the key here.
What this is about, and what naysayers are ignoring, is that to win in today's NHL, you must have a difference maker. Doughty, Stamkos, Crosby [and to lesser extent, banged up Malkin], McDavid, Matthews, Eichel, EK, etc., and most recently Ovie obviously carrying the Caps by sheer force of will over a good and gritty VGK team. The last team to buck this trend was the pre McAvoy, pre emerging Pasta Bruins.
The Rangers do not have a guy at this level. Kreider can do most of it, but he unfortunately does not have the shot to finish. He needs a scorer, or someone else who can force defenders to pay enough attention that better percentage shots for everybody emerge.

The premise is that it's poor asset management. You don't trade all of that for a gamble on futures in one deal where you lose by far. You deal all of those pieces separately and get futures for them.

Heiskanen could still fall on his face, but the eye test says no, he's already arrived. He WOULD be to us what Letang has been as a difference maker for Pens, perhaps only better.

Letang has had 4 seasons of 50+ points as well as a 67 point season. One of the best in the league. If you're banking on Heiskanen being that good to the point where you piss poorly deal off assets and lose tremendously in one single deal, that's an even bigger and poorly calculated gamble. The odds are not on your side at all and even if Heiskanen pans out to be that, you dealt away half of a team to get one piece, which leaves you like the Oilers, McDavid and spare parts.

The Rangers need to add more horses, on that I think we agree.
But continuation of what started last yr [moving McDonagh, etc], will get us there as we continue to swap experience and established value for youth and potential.
However, getting a 1st is NOT the same as getting a 3OA, and more importantly, a guy who so far, eye test, is can't miss.
More horses is not enough.
We a need a Triple Crown winner to augment them.

Having a "triple crown horse" means nothing without stable depth. Again, see: Oilers.

You don't dictate the terms of Heiskanen because that much talent doesn't normally become available. You either say you can or cannot afford the overpay, and decide accordingly. But if you can, you take the deal, even if it effs up --- to a correctable and manageable extent --- the rest of the roster; and you do that b'c a franchise player is necessary [not for a winning club but to go beyond to seek the cup], and availability is EXTREMELY rare.

That's why Dallas won't move him and the Rangers shouldn't be committing harakiri to get him.

Like I've explained there is a fork for Nil to consider.
Does he keep Heiskanen to add to Seguin?
Or does he say this is too much to pass up, I immediately become Cup favorite, I only need to keep an eye out for a little better D or G to get
even stronger?
No, because Nill can make smaller deals to add help at the deadline if necessary without giving up Heiskanen. If he refused to move him for Erik Karlsson, who is one of the top 5-10 players in the world, why would he move Heiskanen for this package?

If they retained the core depth I indicated above and added Heiskanen, no it would not be.

Thanks for the share.

No, it would be, because you don't gut a rebuilding team to add one asset. You gain assets in the draft and if necessary, free agency. There's nothing wrong with planning on signing Panarin. However, when you deal away your top young center, your top young winger, your top young defender and a UFA to be, who is arguably the team's most skilled player at the present moment for in essence, a kid who's played less than 10 NHL games and a 1st round pick, it's an awful deal considering you're depending something that's not even guaranteed to happen.

What you're doing is just pushing the team back even further by doing so. This isn't a move where you take two steps back to take 4-5 steps forward. You're losing 5 yards and hoping you get back to the original line of scrimmage.
 

bernmeister

Registered User
Jun 11, 2010
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So you're banking on Kravtsov playing center on top of all of that?!? Holy ****.
What is with you and Nieves? He doesn't stand a chance of being a top-6 center. You need to stop penciling him in there.
The premise is that it's poor asset management. You don't trade all of that for a gamble on futures in one deal where you lose by far. You deal all of those pieces separately and get futures for them.
Letang has had 4 seasons of 50+ points as well as a 67 point season. One of the best in the league. If you're banking on Heiskanen being that good to the point where you piss poorly deal off assets and lose tremendously in one single deal, that's an even bigger and poorly calculated gamble. The odds are not on your side at all and even if Heiskanen pans out to be that, you dealt away half of a team to get one piece, which leaves you like the Oilers, McDavid and spare parts.
Having a "triple crown horse" means nothing without stable depth. Again, see: Oilers.
That's why Dallas won't move him and the Rangers shouldn't be committing harakiri to get him.

thanks for the reply
we agree to disagree
I have adequately detailed what I said.
We simply are not, and will not be, on the same page here.
 

Walter t

Registered User
Mar 12, 2018
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Zucc at 50% retained for the Dallas 2019 1st rounder. The retention means Dallas can do the deal now and still add at the deadline.
 

pheasant

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Nov 2, 2010
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I don't get how Dallas is always dying for talented depth scorers. This was a clear issue from them all of last season, too. I mean, there's guys hitting the waiver wire all the time, and I never see them making a claim and giving them a shot.

You couldn't get Dano or Jaskin? GM's should know if guys like this are hitting the wire before it happens. So go scoop one up for a conditional 7th, like SJ did with Carrick. Or, I don't know, maybe just claim one of them. I'm sure some guys cleared in the last 12 months that might have helped.

I get that they probably want someone better than a guy on waivers. But if this has been a persistent issue, and both the Stars fans on HF told me it sunk them last season, then try something.

Bring in a has-been, like Camalleri, and try to squeeze something out of him at league minimum. Or Jusi Jokinen, or Stempniak, or Joel Ward (they're all UFA right now). Bring in an AHL scoring hero, like Chris Terry, and tell him it's his big chance so go nuts. Or Phil Varone, or Eric Tangradi, or Cal O'Reilly (they were all top 10 in AHL scoring last season and were all waived during camp).

Capfriendly says Dallas has 44 contracts used out of the 50 max, and they have about 1.4 million in cap space. That means if they try any one of those no-risk/low-reward options, they can easily fit them in. And if they don't work, try 5 more times! A depth scoring tweener should be the easiest position to find and fill. There's no excuse for needing one this bad for this long and doing nothing.
 

LT

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Jul 23, 2010
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I don't get how Dallas is always dying for talented depth scorers. This was a clear issue from them all of last season, too. I mean, there's guys hitting the waiver wire all the time, and I never see them making a claim and giving them a shot.

You couldn't get Dano or Jaskin? GM's should know if guys like this are hitting the wire before it happens. So go scoop one up for a conditional 7th, like SJ did with Carrick. Or, I don't know, maybe just claim one of them. I'm sure some guys cleared in the last 12 months that might have helped.

I get that they probably want someone better than a guy on waivers. But if this has been a persistent issue, and both the Stars fans on HF told me it sunk them last season, then try something.

Bring in a has-been, like Camalleri, and try to squeeze something out of him at league minimum. Or Jusi Jokinen, or Stempniak, or Joel Ward (they're all UFA right now). Bring in an AHL scoring hero, like Chris Terry, and tell him it's his big chance so go nuts. Or Phil Varone, or Eric Tangradi, or Cal O'Reilly (they were all top 10 in AHL scoring last season and were all waived during camp).

Capfriendly says Dallas has 44 contracts used out of the 50 max, and they have about 1.4 million in cap space. That means if they try any one of those no-risk/low-reward options, they can easily fit them in. And if they don't work, try 5 more times! A depth scoring tweener should be the easiest position to find and fill. There's no excuse for needing one this bad for this long and doing nothing.

I think you're misunderstanding the point. We don't need depth scorers - we're fine there, they're just not producing as of now (but it's only 6 games). What we want and need is a bonafide top 6 player (or two maybe) to help relieve the pressure put on our first line and to push our depth further down the lineup into positions where their skills are better suited.

Every player you listed does little for us.
 

pheasant

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I think you're misunderstanding the point. We don't need depth scorers - we're fine there, they're just not producing as of now (but it's only 6 games). What we want and need is a bonafide top 6 player (or two maybe) to help relieve the pressure put on our first line and to push our depth further down the lineup into positions where their skills are better suited.

Every player you listed does little for us.

I hear you. Maybe the need here is a little different than I thought.

But my point, mostly, was that Dallas fans on here were saying all of last season that they needed scoring. And I seem to remember that even depth forwards and 3rd line tweener types were being considered. How can a need like that go ignored for so long without so much as a single attempt at even just a bandaid solution?
 

LT

Global Moderator
Jul 23, 2010
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I hear you. Maybe the need here is a little different than I thought.

But my point, mostly, was that Dallas fans on here were saying all of last season that they needed scoring. And I seem to remember that even depth forwards and 3rd line tweener types were being considered. How can a need like that go ignored for so long without so much as a single attempt at even just a bandaid solution?

I don’t recall that. We’re quite happy with our third line and have 4-5 players most fans are comfortable on it. 4th line is fine as well, and we have enough depth to keep it fine. I wouldn’t describe either line as elite relative to others, but they’re definitely good and aren’t what’s holding us back.
 

M2Beezy

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Baertchi for a 2nd and depth D prospect
 

pheasant

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Nov 2, 2010
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I don’t recall that. We’re quite happy with our third line and have 4-5 players most fans are comfortable on it. 4th line is fine as well, and we have enough depth to keep it fine. I wouldn’t describe either line as elite relative to others, but they’re definitely good and aren’t what’s holding us back.

If that's the case, then don't mind me. I'll be on my way.
 
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WhatWhat

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Aug 7, 2014
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I don't get how Dallas is always dying for talented depth scorers. This was a clear issue from them all of last season, too. I mean, there's guys hitting the waiver wire all the time, and I never see them making a claim and giving them a shot.

You couldn't get Dano or Jaskin? GM's should know if guys like this are hitting the wire before it happens. So go scoop one up for a conditional 7th, like SJ did with Carrick. Or, I don't know, maybe just claim one of them. I'm sure some guys cleared in the last 12 months that might have helped.

I get that they probably want someone better than a guy on waivers. But if this has been a persistent issue, and both the Stars fans on HF told me it sunk them last season, then try something.

Bring in a has-been, like Camalleri, and try to squeeze something out of him at league minimum. Or Jusi Jokinen, or Stempniak, or Joel Ward (they're all UFA right now). Bring in an AHL scoring hero, like Chris Terry, and tell him it's his big chance so go nuts. Or Phil Varone, or Eric Tangradi, or Cal O'Reilly (they were all top 10 in AHL scoring last season and were all waived during camp).

Capfriendly says Dallas has 44 contracts used out of the 50 max, and they have about 1.4 million in cap space. That means if they try any one of those no-risk/low-reward options, they can easily fit them in. And if they don't work, try 5 more times! A depth scoring tweener should be the easiest position to find and fill. There's no excuse for needing one this bad for this long and doing nothing.

Because we dont need Dano's or Jaskins. Our depth scoring issue isnt for a lack of borderline waiver guys, it because there is no legit scoring threat after Benn, Seguin and Rads. We have 3rd liners for days and our 3rd/4th line arent bad, its just some of our best 3rd line players are getting tasked with 2nd line duties and they just arent at that level.

When our offense was dynamic it was thanks to Spezza still being a 1C but being on the second line, it was because Sharp was a 50 point 2 way winger in the top 6, and Hemsky was a top 6 guy. Sure we upgraded Sharp to Rads, but Spezza is in decline and no where near the 1C playing in a 2C role he once was and we dont have a player who can score at the level that Hamsky scored for us (at least no one looks like that player yet). So what we need is that 2nd legit top 6 piece player for the 2nd line so we can run 2 top 6 duos made up of Benn-Seguin-Rads-New Guy similar to how we had 4 legit top 6 scorer in Benn-Seguin-Spezza-Sharp a few years back.
 
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