GDT: Game of Thrones Episode 4

[ArGarBarGar]

Didn't Arya stab and murder some innocent kid back in Season 1? She isn't exactly right to judge the Hound and his redemption

The kid was trying to take her sword and was threatening her (this was while the Stark loyalists were all being murdered). It also seemed somewhat accidental.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

Given it a second rewatch. The scene with Jamie leaving is some brilliant acting out if Nikolaj. Jamie just seems consumed with self hatred for all his past sins he committed for Cersei.

Really not sure how anyone thought that was a total unraveling of his character development.

He said, "I would have killed everyone..for Cersei" not, "I will kill everyone...for Cersei"

Important past tense there.

 

[discostu]

I prefer happy or at least hopeful endings but that's me. I agree that Jon is a poor choice as king...but so are so many of the key players. Tommen with the right guidance would have actually done a good job LOL. The reality though is Dany came to break the wheel and it's simply not going to happen. There's going to be a power vacuum that someone who is more than likely not capable is going to fill. It's the same song and dance.

I prefer happy endings as well, but also recognize that Game of Thrones is a littlest different. I'll take happy, but it needs to feeling authentic, which becoems an issue when you take shortcuts, and where my concern lies.

The question of what makes a good leader has been a central theme of the series, and it's one that doesn't have a simple direct answer. No one person is going to come in and be able to solve all the issues.

The more I think about it, the more I recognize how I'll need to manage my expectations. I think everyone struggles with the concept of what makes a good leader, and knows there's no singular answer. If I'm expecting a tv show about breasts and dragons to do it for me, I'll likely be disappointed.

 

[HanSolo]

He said, "I would have killed everyone..for Cersei" not, "I will kill everyone...for Cersei"

Important past tense there.

Yeah it really struck me that he was taking full stock of how wrong he was. Or at least how reprehensible that his addiction guided so many morally debased decisions.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

So I don't think logical nitpicks and strict adherence to realism matter, and they're just proxies for deeper storytelling/ emotional issues, but man oh man do those ballistae push me to the limit in retrospect.
-Accurate enough to bulls eye a far away moving target on first volley (on water!!)
-powerful enough to punch through dragon
-adjustable by a single man in a split second
-reloads in seconds
-okay this is really, really, really nitpicky but: the reason ballistae didn't enjoy widespread naval deployment in antiquity is because the permanent wet environment and (if it applies) salt in the air f***s with the tension in the ropes, rendering ballistae consistently imprecise to the point of uselessness.

Emotionally, it seems they're aiming for something similar to the dothraki charge in episode 3 (build hope/quash it), but there's no build up, and it doesn't fit the story moment whereas the charge in 3 was built up and perfectly fit the story at that moment (which is why the consensus is, "cool, but dumb, but SO COOL!!!".

 

[Eisen]

Didn't Arya stab and murder some innocent kid back in Season 1? She isn't exactly right to judge the Hound and his redemption

She did, she was in panic, if I remember correctly, though. But that's not what I meant. She joined and left the Faceless Men because she wanted revenge (and because there was nowhere left to go), killed all the Freys for revenge but was Ok with the hound. Perhaps because he somewhat redeemed himself, butI would have liked it better if she still was on her list. I would have liked that development better.

 

[Daisy Jane]

You're missing the point completely.

It's not the essence of what is happening that's the problem, it's the execution in these final two seasons.

She's being driven to this conclusion because her advisers have suddenly become 21st century pacifists who want to bail on her for following their garbage counsel to the point of near defeat. She's being railroaded by writers who are just trying to make the threads meet at the end.

they've suddenly become? (there's other stuff, and it sounds like a lot of "oh look they are hating on the poor girl because reasons).

Dany is not being led down the garden path by the writers because she's a girl and the male demo couldn't handle it. that is the most simplistic thing i've ever read. This is where Dany - was always headed. her descent into madness. and again if people want to get mad that it's happening in a span of 1 episode, vs. being held by the hand in two-three more, then i get that, but let's not make it out to be that Dany was always going to win and everything was going to be peachy keen, jelly bean.


Let's start off with this.
1: suddenly become 21 century pacifists.

No. they aren't. they are trying to make Dany sympathetic to the people she wants to rule. The last Targ these people knew, was known as the mad king and literally wanted to destroy everyone by fire, ending up with his assassination. So his daughter is going to come swooping in, burning everything and then be "Hi i'm your salvation?" and the people are gonna be all. "right on, right on?"

They've been undermining Dany since season one. they first ignored her because she was over the sea, but Robert wanted to kill her because, she was just a Targ. then every time she got something - they were spreading whispers how ruthless she was. Season 3 when she got the unsullied - first thing Barristen said was, you can not have an army of slaves to take over Westeros. (she freed them yes, and she can't abide slavery)

She went in to so many cities, laying waste - and it's not like everyone (not just the slave owners FYI) were grateful on how she did it and changed the way of life. the Sons of the Harpy are proof of that.

So she crosses the Narrow Sea and literally wants to do the same thing. Burn people, instantly take over, have people bend to her will and people re telling her, "if you do it the way your family does it, you'll never truly be loved, you'll never truly be safe." and so even though this way is a bit more costly because she can't drop a medieval atom bomb - they are pacifists? No. they're trying to not have another Mereen situation.

2: They are changing who Dany is. by railroading her etc.

no. they aren't. This is who Dany always was.
Dany has no qualms in doing whatever it takes to getting whatever she wants.
She sacrificed her son/everything to bring back Drogo despite everyone telling her that lady was a crazy witch, blood magic was wrong, and don't trust her. She didn't intentionally (before people start at me) give up the baby, but still. she didn't think about any cost to get her husband back. Then when it didn't work/found out it was revenge, she was like "Cool. imma gonna kill you" Did anything have this feeling if the witch wasn't all. "ha ha I screwed you." and was like. "I'm sorry it didn't work." Dany would have been. "that's okay, keep riding with us?" It was tragic and sad but it was also quite frankly the first foray of us seeing Dany as a true Targ..

Season 3 - she annihilates the Unsullied master and everyone else in that square.
they see it as liberation (because they are no longer slaves), but lets look at it from another angle. as insulting and rude, and whatever else we want to lay at his feet - was the Unsullied Master cheating Dany? No. Did he not uphold his end of the bargain? Yes. Dany went there fully knowing she was going to lay waste to them, to get what she wanted. And again. bad-ass scene, (of course), was it completely altruistic? no.

Season 6 - even knowing what dead Khal Wives fate is - after the Khals find out who she is (and thus stop being actual gross people, and is like yah we can't touch you because you are a khaleesi ) she decides to take over the entire Khalasr by killing everyone in charge and bending people to her will, why? because she can..

if Dany wants something, she will - like Cersei - try to figure out how to get what she wants, and if she can't get it nicely, she goes in and dracarys everyone, and then people (being scared) is like. "Okay we yield, we serve.". Yes. Jorah, and Missandei etc, know the "real" Dany the sweet, caring person underneath all of that - but it doesn't change the fact that she is also bloodthirsty, entitled, and a conquerer. not a true ruler. she wants to own, and she'll do everything that it takes, including obliterating kings landing. so many times Jorah, Barristen, Tyrion, Varys had to hold her back. (again the only one that as like all "eff it, kill them." was Olenna because she lost everything).

heck, Dany gets to Westeros, gets mad that she's losing so does exactly what Cersei and others have been telling people for years what she'd do: Bring raping,murdering hoards to their shores, and lay waste, and what they don't take care of - the dragons will. Tarly flat out calls her on it, says no. you don't really have any claim, I don't see you as my queen (because seriously what if she were to lose?), and instead of showing clemency or throwing him in dragon stone or whatever - she burns him alive. Why? because he didn't yield.

Cersei might hate her people, and the people hate her too but is Dany going to be awashed with love and adoration because she burned up KL on her way to the throne? the Wheel she wants to break - cool line and all, but nothing in her actions indicate how she actually wants to break the wheel. she wants to dominate. What's the wheel she actually wants to break? anything/everything that stands in her way of ruling.

and that's why everyone is all team Jon (now on the show).because Jon, is tempered by fire and ice. he has shown time and again he is fair and just and will only impact justice, if there is no other way or actual rule etc were broken. each and every single time. he does what is best for his people, not for himself - which FYI is what got him killed.

this isn't anything new.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Season 3 - she annihilates the Unsullied master and everyone else in that square.
they see it as liberation (because they are no longer slaves), but lets look at it from another angle. as insulting and rude, and whatever else we want to lay at his feet - was the Unsullied Master cheating Dany? No. Did he not uphold his end of the bargain? Yes. Dany went there fully knowing she was going to lay waste to them, to get what she wanted. And again. bad-ass scene, (of course), was it completely altruistic? no.

This is a weird thing to pin on Dany as foreshadowing of her becoming the Mad Queen. This is one of the most morally correct actions she took in Essos, killing the masters who were responsible for thousands upon thousands of dead children and abuse/suffering of those under their control. And honestly the only way she could have liberated Astapor was by spilling blood.

It doesn't matter if the slavers had a deal and stuck to it. They were selling human beings as property to be left under the control of others to do what they wished. Ending that kind of tyranny is not evidence of madness, it is evidence of a good heart and the will to do what is right.

"Slay the masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who holds a whip, but harm no child. Strike the chains off of every slave you see!"

 

[Daisy Jane]

This is a weird thing to pin on Dany as foreshadowing of her becoming the Mad Queen. This is one of the most morally correct actions she took in Essos, killing the masters who were responsible for thousands upon thousands of dead children and abuse/suffering of those under their control. And honestly the only way she could have liberated Astapor was by spilling blood.

It doesn't matter if the slavers had a deal and stuck to it. They were selling human beings as property to be left under the control of others to do what they wished. Ending that kind of tyranny is not evidence of madness, it is evidence of a good heart and the will to do what is right.

"Slay the masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who holds a whip, but harm no child. Strike the chains off of every slave you see!"

but then as we see in Mereeen - not every master was cruel. (as evidenced by the petitions of some of the slaves wanting to go back to their masters). so yah. She liberated Astapor -but was everyone in Astapor that cruel? no they weren't. and then she left Astapor, and like we saw she left, and it went back to exactly how it was (which is why she stayed for a while and still struggled with it). she laid carnage, and then split.

 

[Daisy Jane]

 

[ArGarBarGar]

but then as we see in Mereeen - not every master was cruel. (as evidenced by the petitions of some of the slaves wanting to go back to their masters). so yah. She liberated Astapor -but was everyone in Astapor that cruel? no they weren't. and then she left Astapor, and like we saw she left, and it went back to exactly how it was (which is why she stayed for a while and still struggled with it). she laid carnage, and then split.

Her struggling to keep cities free isn't evidence of her madness (it is evidence of how difficult it is to overturn the status quo in such a large land where money is incredibly influential). And I would not call those who perpetuate such immoral acts as owning people as innocent in the first place. I am sure there were nice slave-owners in the states, but that didn't make their ownership of human beings anything but absolutely abhorrent.

Again, there is nothing mad about taking that kind of stance and liberating a city from slavery, even if it is only for a short time.

 

[Eisen]

Her struggling to keep cities free isn't evidence of her madness (it is evidence of how difficult it is to overturn the status quo in such a large land where money is incredibly influential). And I would not call those who perpetuate such immoral acts as owning people as innocent in the first place. I am sure there were nice slave-owners in the states, but that didn't make their ownership of human beings anything but absolutely abhorrent.

Again, there is nothing mad about taking that kind of stance and liberating a city from slavery, even if it is only for a short time.

I think the slaver did teach her in a way, though. Their ruthlessness when it comes to human life is reflected in a way in her. She never was cruel to the innocent before. In this episode she isn't considering her troops after a hard battle, she is urging them on, despite all advise against it. And she is willing to kill the innocent townfolk around Cersei. That is disregard to human life in a way the slavers would do.

 

[McOilers97]

The idea of Daenerys as "The Mad Queen" is definitely a narrative that is being forced, not earned, by the writers.

Daenerys has shown that she can be cold and/or cruel at times (often out of necessity or choosing the lesser of two evils), and maybe she is a bit too power-hungry, but "mad"? I don't see it. This narrative exists in order to shoehorn some political unrest into the show, because without it, there's very little actual plot left.

 

[Juicy Pop]

they've suddenly become? (there's other stuff, and it sounds like a lot of "oh look they are hating on the poor girl because reasons).

Dany is not being led down the garden path by the writers because she's a girl and the male demo couldn't handle it. that is the most simplistic thing i've ever read. This is where Dany - was always headed. her descent into madness. and again if people want to get mad that it's happening in a span of 1 episode, vs. being held by the hand in two-three more, then i get that, but let's not make it out to be that Dany was always going to win and everything was going to be peachy keen, jelly bean.


Let's start off with this.
1: suddenly become 21 century pacifists.

No. they aren't. they are trying to make Dany sympathetic to the people she wants to rule. The last Targ these people knew, was known as the mad king and literally wanted to destroy everyone by fire, ending up with his assassination. So his daughter is going to come swooping in, burning everything and then be "Hi i'm your salvation?" and the people are gonna be all. "right on, right on?"

They've been undermining Dany since season one. they first ignored her because she was over the sea, but Robert wanted to kill her because, she was just a Targ. then every time she got something - they were spreading whispers how ruthless she was. Season 3 when she got the unsullied - first thing Barristen said was, you can not have an army of slaves to take over Westeros. (she freed them yes, and she can't abide slavery)

She went in to so many cities, laying waste - and it's not like everyone (not just the slave owners FYI) were grateful on how she did it and changed the way of life. the Sons of the Harpy are proof of that.

So she crosses the Narrow Sea and literally wants to do the same thing. Burn people, instantly take over, have people bend to her will and people re telling her, "if you do it the way your family does it, you'll never truly be loved, you'll never truly be safe." and so even though this way is a bit more costly because she can't drop a medieval atom bomb - they are pacifists? No. they're trying to not have another Mereen situation.

2: They are changing who Dany is. by railroading her etc.

no. they aren't. This is who Dany always was.
Dany has no qualms in doing whatever it takes to getting whatever she wants.
She sacrificed her son/everything to bring back Drogo despite everyone telling her that lady was a crazy witch, blood magic was wrong, and don't trust her. She didn't intentionally (before people start at me) give up the baby, but still. she didn't think about any cost to get her husband back. Then when it didn't work/found out it was revenge, she was like "Cool. imma gonna kill you" Did anything have this feeling if the witch wasn't all. "ha ha I screwed you." and was like. "I'm sorry it didn't work." Dany would have been. "that's okay, keep riding with us?" It was tragic and sad but it was also quite frankly the first foray of us seeing Dany as a true Targ..

Season 3 - she annihilates the Unsullied master and everyone else in that square.
they see it as liberation (because they are no longer slaves), but lets look at it from another angle. as insulting and rude, and whatever else we want to lay at his feet - was the Unsullied Master cheating Dany? No. Did he not uphold his end of the bargain? Yes. Dany went there fully knowing she was going to lay waste to them, to get what she wanted. And again. bad-ass scene, (of course), was it completely altruistic? no.

Season 6 - even knowing what dead Khal Wives fate is - after the Khals find out who she is (and thus stop being actual gross people, and is like yah we can't touch you because you are a khaleesi ) she decides to take over the entire Khalasr by killing everyone in charge and bending people to her will, why? because she can..

if Dany wants something, she will - like Cersei - try to figure out how to get what she wants, and if she can't get it nicely, she goes in and dracarys everyone, and then people (being scared) is like. "Okay we yield, we serve.". Yes. Jorah, and Missandei etc, know the "real" Dany the sweet, caring person underneath all of that - but it doesn't change the fact that she is also bloodthirsty, entitled, and a conquerer. not a true ruler. she wants to own, and she'll do everything that it takes, including obliterating kings landing. so many times Jorah, Barristen, Tyrion, Varys had to hold her back. (again the only one that as like all "eff it, kill them." was Olenna because she lost everything).

heck, Dany gets to Westeros, gets mad that she's losing so does exactly what Cersei and others have been telling people for years what she'd do: Bring raping,murdering hoards to their shores, and lay waste, and what they don't take care of - the dragons will. Tarly flat out calls her on it, says no. you don't really have any claim, I don't see you as my queen (because seriously what if she were to lose?), and instead of showing clemency or throwing him in dragon stone or whatever - she burns him alive. Why? because he didn't yield.

Cersei might hate her people, and the people hate her too but is Dany going to be awashed with love and adoration because she burned up KL on her way to the throne? the Wheel she wants to break - cool line and all, but nothing in her actions indicate how she actually wants to break the wheel. she wants to dominate. What's the wheel she actually wants to break? anything/everything that stands in her way of ruling.

and that's why everyone is all team Jon (now on the show).because Jon, is tempered by fire and ice. he has shown time and again he is fair and just and will only impact justice, if there is no other way or actual rule etc were broken. each and every single time. he does what is best for his people, not for himself - which FYI is what got him killed.

this isn't anything new.

Nobody really understands what railroading is, do they?

I’m sorry but I’m not gonna bother going bit by bit because you’ve fundamentally misunderstood what my objection is.

I’ll rephrase it one last time in another manner.

The core problem is that Dany is going to be forced to make horrifying decisions because they are the only real way out of terrible situations brought on by characters who are acting in service to the plot instead of to their own nature.

 

[Duke33]

Daenerys has shown from time to time some ruthlessness, or cruelty, but it seemed like there were reasons. I didn't see madness in there, not to the extent of her father or brother.

Instead of going for the instant kill when she was fully loaded and outnumbered and outgunned Cersei by thousands plus three dragons upon arriving in Westeros, she listened to her advisors and acted with moderation and caution, and ended up taking losses. She agreed to help the North knowing even in victory she'd take heavy losses.

I don't see madness or a tyrant in there. That kind of ruler (like Cersei) would see those fights as a waster of resources. But it's painfully obvious the show is going to have her go full on Mad Queen in the last three hours of show. I could see it building over time, but like everything else in the show lately it's going to happen like overnight.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Nobody really understands what railroading is, do they?

I’m sorry but I’m not gonna bother going bit by bit because you’ve fundamentally misunderstood what my objection is.

I’ll rephrase it one last time in another manner.

The core problem is that Dany is going to be forced to make horrifying decisions because they are the only real way out of terrible situations brought on by characters who are acting in service to the plot instead of to their own nature.

i didn't.
railroading means to force something through via acceptance.

for a lot of people Dany's shown that she's done (or has had) those tendencies - it's already in her own nature, not acting service to the plot - but if you think i've fundamentally misunderstood your objection is, then sorry.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Tarly flat out calls her on it, says no. you don't really have any claim, I don't see you as my queen (because seriously what if she were to lose?), and instead of showing clemency or throwing him in dragon stone or whatever - she burns him alive. Why? because he didn't yield.

Tarly got the same choice he offered Sam. Exile or death. Karma's a b!**h.

I do like parallel between that scene and Robb Stark executing Lord Karstark, which is the reason Robb lost the war.

Dany's largest mistake was refusing Tarly's final request to spare his heir.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

but then as we see in Mereeen - not every master was cruel. (as evidenced by the petitions of some of the slaves wanting to go back to their masters). so yah. She liberated Astapor -but was everyone in Astapor that cruel? no they weren't. and then she left Astapor, and like we saw she left, and it went back to exactly how it was (which is why she stayed for a while and still struggled with it). she laid carnage, and then split.

She sacked the City of Genital Mutilating Slavers.

Was it also a demonstration of insanity when she sacked the City of Herpetic Pedophiles?

 

[bleedblue1223]

The reason why her advisors have been wanting her to tone it down and show mercy is that now that she is reasonably close to taking the throne, she will have to convince people that she isn't like her father. Otherwise, she'll never have the support.

 

[Osprey]

I cannot take youtube videos seriously with bombastic words like WASTE plastered on the thumbnail.

It does make it hard for reasonable people to click on them. Fortunately, most of the videos aren't as hyperbolic as their titles or preview images. For example, that "Euron Sucks!" video is actually a very sane one that makes a good argument without any hyperbole, cursing or otherwise raving that I recall. If the author were to have titled it "A study of Euron Greyjoy: Book vs Show," though, it probably wouldn't have gotten nearly as many views. I guess that that's just the way that it is.

 

[Knave]

The reason why her advisors have been wanting her to tone it down and show mercy is that now that she is reasonably close to taking the throne, she will have to convince people that she isn't like her father. Otherwise, she'll never have the support.

She's a whackjob and they're wondering what the hell she's going to do next and when they will no longer be able to walk her back from her fits of rage.

 

[HanSolo]

Daenerys has shown from time to time some ruthlessness, or cruelty, but it seemed like there were reasons. I didn't see madness in there, not to the extent of her father or brother.

Instead of going for the instant kill when she was fully loaded and outnumbered and outgunned Cersei by thousands plus three dragons upon arriving in Westeros, she listened to her advisors and acted with moderation and caution, and ended up taking losses. She agreed to help the North knowing even in victory she'd take heavy losses.

I don't see madness or a tyrant in there. That kind of ruler (like Cersei) would see those fights as a waster of resources. But it's painfully obvious the show is going to have her go full on Mad Queen in the last three hours of show. I could see it building over time, but like everything else in the show lately it's going to happen like overnight.

It's not so much pure madness as it is willing to satisfy her ambition at any cost. As in, if need be she'll take the city with civilian casualties or try to execute Jon if he stands in her way she will.

 

[MadDevil]

Yeah, I don't think they're going Aerys 2.0 with Dany. I think it's more of a how far will she go to see her dream fulfilled question. How many thousands have to die for her to bring peace? Does her ultimate end goal justify any means being used to get there? Is she willing to kill anybody that threatens that end goal?

 

[Osprey]

I can't see Jaime killing Cersei, especially not bearing a child (his?). I think that he's going to Kings Landing to simply confront her. After all, he never really did. He just slipped out in the night, perhaps to avoid a confrontation, her talking him out of it or even her preventing him from leaving. He's like a young man who was abused for years by his father and finally ran away, but eventually realized that he had to go home and tell his father off to put the past behind him. Jaime is going to similarly confront Cersi to get things off of his chest and try to alleviate his guilt. He wants absolution, which is why he rode north to join the other side in the first place, but it ended up not being enough and he now realizes that he needs to have the confrontation that he avoided before if he's ever going to be able to live with himself.

Also, in retrospect, Jaime bedding Brienne looks less like the act of pity that it initially seemed and more his saying goodbye to her, since he knows there's a chance that he's riding to his death.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

The idea of Daenerys as "The Mad Queen" is definitely a narrative that is being forced, not earned, by the writers.

Daenerys has shown that she can be cold and/or cruel at times (often out of necessity or choosing the lesser of two evils), and maybe she is a bit too power-hungry, but "mad"? I don't see it. This narrative exists in order to shoehorn some political unrest into the show, because without it, there's very little actual plot left.

I agree with this. She's had her moments but generally her actions have corresponded with a nobler mindset, a desire to not only be better than her father but better than the establishment. Not anymore! LOL.