OT: Game of Thrones SPOILER Discussion - Here be tales of SPOILERS and drinking giant’s milk!!!

[Kriss E]

It's not just Sansa, ARYA as well and Tyrion will also refuse to bend the knee. That's two more people close to Jon that will get executed FOR SURE.

Why would Dany have to mention names? Is Jon really that dumb? He knows who Dany is talking about.

Arya is not a leader and she's off exploring the world, so it doesn't matter.
Tyrion, he's bound to die anyways after freeing his brother anyway.

And yes, Jon is apparently that dumb. He couldn't see Tyrion was manipulating him into killing Dany.
Who benefited the most from her death? Sansa? Bran and Tyrion? Can you actually tell me the World is in a better place with Bran as a King? Someone who let Dany kill all those innocent victims because he wanted to be where he is today, King.

 

[ImNeverWrong]

I cant believe there are Daenerys apologists here. Haha. She was a genocidal mad queen. I can tell you right now she didnt have an ounce of good in her. She was actually rotten to the core from the start. Her freeing slaves was just an ends to a means...that being the throne. She didnt save slaves because it was inherently a good deed, she did it for the title, the prestige, the pat on the back, the accolades...for selfish reasons. She only wanted one thing from the start and that was unmitigated power. When she got a taste of that power like any crazed mad selfish ego maniac in kings landing, she wanted more. She wanted to "liberate" everyone an that meant mass genocide. Everyone should bow down before her, and if they dont...see yeah! Because apparently if your ruler doesnt bend the knee and you happen to live within the same vicinity you as a peasant just trying to live is just as much of a threat as the ruler that you live under. I mean when jon first met dani, the first thing she told him was to kneel. This chick was insane and full of herself, always so quick to tout her stupid titles. Yet we have some people infatuated by her psychotic words to Jon in the throne as a sign of her being morally righteous? She just murdered innocent children and didnt show an ounce of remorse. Shes a vile woman. Jon should have stabbed her 100 times.

 

[No More Subban]

My bad. But hey, let's put this one in perspective.
So...Tyrion, who betrayed the Queen by conspiring with her enemies, is now in ''prison'' where most believe it's only a matter of time when he'll be executed. Geez...I wonder if this guy has anything to gain from Dany dying..like...ASAP.
So he influences Jon to kill Dany....what happens next? Well, couple weeks after, he's not just freed, he's back as the Hand of the King! lolll

Yeah, let's pretend Bran is #teamdany all day. NOT.

Ya..I'm sure not everyone wants Dany as a Queen. Most people since forever have leaders they aren't happy with. So what? This isn't a Democracy. The most powerful person leads, that's how it went.

What do you mean, so what? I don't like a few powerful leaders we have today, will I get executed for it? People in GoT world will die for it.

Why do you think the mad king was stabbed in the back? Why do you think Joffrey was poisoned?

How do I not get that? That's the whole point.
We live in a democracy, you be opposed to the leader and be perfectly fine.
Back in those days though, if you openly opposed/defy/challenge the leader, it would usually get you killed. You don't have to like your leader, or respect them, but you do have to bend the knee and follow their orders. That's how it worked back in those days.

Again, this is NOT the world people want to live in anymore. They want to be able to CHOOSE. By getting rid of Dany, this buys them years of peace.

That's why Sansa refusing to bend the knee to Dany or consider her the Queen before even knowing Jon was a Tar made absolutely no freaking sense.

Sansa doesn't trust Dany. She's a Targaryen after all. All these houses are still obviously stuck in the past.

It makes even less sense after they saw how Dany can be just as evil as good. Jon should have been going straight to Winterfell to slap Sansa across the face telling her to bend the ****ing knee. Not...oh lemme just kill Dany.

Hahaha that's actually funny af.

Then maybe you should focus your anger on Jon because Sansa will do Sansa things. Jon will do Jon things and will never snap like that to Sansa and especially Arya, who is for sure not bending the knee as well.

 

[Kriss E]

I cant believe there are Daenerys apologists here. Haha. She was a genocidal mad queen. I can tell you right now she didnt have an ounce of good in her. She was actually rotten to the core from the start. Her freeing slaves was just an ends to a means...that being the throne. She didnt save slaves because it was inherently a good deed, she did it for the title, the prestige, the pat on the back, the accolades...for selfish reasons. She only wanted one thing from the start and that was unmitigated power. When she got a taste of that power like any crazed mad selfish ego maniac in kings landing, she wanted more. She wanted to "liberate" everyone an that meant mass genocide. Everyone should bow down before her, and if they dont...see yeah! Because apparently if your ruler doesnt bend the knee and you happen to live within the same vicinity you as a peasant just trying to live is just as much of a threat as the ruler that you live under. I mean when jon first met dani, the first thing she told him was to kneel. This chick was insane and full of herself, always so quick to tout her stupid titles. Yet we have some people infatuated by her psychotic words to Jon in the throne as a sign of her being morally righteous? She just murdered innocent children and didnt show an ounce of remorse. Shes a vile woman. Jon should have stabbed her 100 times.

It's not about being an apologist, it's about whether or not they developed the story enough for her to undoubtedly be this crazy Queen to be that absolutely needed to be assassinated.
There just wasn't there. She did a crazy massacre, okay, well..killing innocent people in a time of war especially when invading an area is extremely common.
It doesn't make it uncruel, it was, but to the point of having her lover turn on her? Nahhhh.

Jon is an idiot, he's been manipulated by Sansa and Tyrion to kill his Queen, the woman he love

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Dany clearly went overboard. Unsure how this can be debated. It was just rushed. Needed more dialogue, more threats to do more, better development.

It was her proper ending but the wrong execution.

 

[No More Subban]

Arya is not a leader and she's off exploring the world, so it doesn't matter.

What do you mean it doesnt matter?

Why do you think Arya gets to explore the world?

Do you really think she'd leave Winterfell knowing Dany is Queen?

Tyrion, he's bound to die anyways after freeing his brother anyway.

And that's why he made that speech to Jon. An obvious cry for help.

And yes, Jon is apparently that dumb. He couldn't see Tyrion was manipulating him into killing Dany.
Who benefited the most from her death? Sansa? Bran and Tyrion? Can you actually tell me the World is in a better place with Bran as a King? Someone who let Dany kill all those innocent victims because he wanted to be where he is today, King.

Hell, yes. I don't see any wars coming.

What about a world with Dany as Queen? Is that a better place for you?

 

[LyricalLyricist]

If Bran knew Dany would do this and did nothing he’s also a villain IMO. That simple. The whole Jon killed her after thing doesn’t save all those lost.

 

[Kriss E]

Yeah, let's pretend Bran is #teamdany all day. NOT.

What do you mean, so what? I don't like a few powerful leaders we have today, will I get executed for it? People in GoT world will die for it.

Why do you think the mad king was stabbed in the back? Why do you think Joffrey was poisoned?

The Mad King, as well as Joffrey, were very well established evil people. The Mad King went throught 10 years of good reign until he started losing it mostly due to his vanity. But it wasn't until he got captured and held for 6 months, barely escaping with his life, that he really went nuts. He became paranoid thinking everyone around him was out to get him. Then he became dellusional thinking if he sets fire to the city he would rise from the ashes as a Dragon.
That's very, very, very, very far from Dany doing what she did for her rational, albeit cruel, reason.

Joffrey was a young kid who was abusive to everyone and out of control from the start. Again. They established it very well before he was killed.
That's the whole point here.

We live in a democracy man...not them. For them, defying the ruler, whoever that is, usually leads to life threatening troubles.

Again, this is NOT the world people want to live in anymore. They want to be able to CHOOSE. By getting rid of Dany, this buys them years of peace.

The don't? Everyone laughs at the idea of change. They didn't even think of it until they had this meeting where they somehow needed Tyrion to explain this all to them.

Sansa doesn't trust Dany. She's a Targaryen after all. All these houses are still obviously stuck in the past.

She doesn't trust anyone.

Hahaha that's actually funny af.

Then maybe you should focus your anger on Jon because Sansa will do Sansa things. Jon will do Jon things and will never snap like that to Sansa and especially Arya, who is for sure not bending the knee as well.

I'm not angry man...we're just discussing a TV show. I think the writing was terrible and stupid. My life is going on perfectly fine though, thanks man.

 

[No More Subban]

If Bran knew Dany would do this and did nothing he’s also a villain IMO. That simple. The whole Jon killed her after thing doesn’t save all those lost.

Yeah but what about the people outside King's Landing? I'm sure they're still breathing.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Yeah but what about the people outside King's Landing? I'm sure they're still breathing.

Wars will happen forever. They continue to today.

The point was he let people die. If he knew this was going to happen he should’ve told people earlier.

 

[No More Subban]

Bran doesn't give a **** about Dany's death. Why would he punish Tyrion for it? If anything, he should throw a party for him. It made him a king.

The Mad King, as well as Joffrey, were very well established evil people. The Mad King went throught 10 years of good reign until he started losing it mostly due to his vanity. But it wasn't until he got captured and held for 6 months, barely escaping with his life, that he really went nuts. He became paranoid thinking everyone around him was out to get him. Then he became dellusional thinking if he sets fire to the city he would rise from the ashes as a Dragon.
That's very, very, very, very far from Dany doing what she did for her rational, albeit cruel, reason.

The fate of the mad king was also Dany's. It's as clear as day. Why wait for more massacres when Jon can put an end to it before it gets even worst?

Joffrey was a young kid who was abusive to everyone and out of control from the start. Again. They established it very well before he was killed.
That's the whole point here.

So what if he's a kid? He's still the most powerful person at that time. A kid just doesn't order someone to behead people.

Yeah, out of control, something Dany is.

We live in a democracy man...not them. For them, defying the ruler, whoever that is, usually leads to life threatening troubles.

Democracy or not, there will always be OPPOSITION to whoever's ruling their world. Whether good or evil, there's someone out there who will oppose you.And some people are prepared to die for conspiring if it means saving the people/realms. Just look at Varys.

The don't? Everyone laughs at the idea of change. They didn't even think of it until they had this meeting where they somehow needed Tyrion to explain this all to them.

They didn't think of changing because they had years of peace. The one we're watching had full of wars, night army and dragon fire. Something that hasn't happened in thousands of years. They just need to put an end to that.

I'm not angry man...we're just discussing a TV show. I think the writing was terrible and stupid. My life is going on perfectly fine though, thanks man.

Sorry, I didn't mean it like that. Maybe I should've said maybe it was all Jon's doing, not Sansa's. Sansa has Winterfell full time and has the right to rule it her way.

 

[Kimota]

The thing is killing civilians has only been considered wrong/evil for what the past 40-50 years? And that's just among "western" nations, as certainly quite a few countries around the world still believe in it. If we use modern morality to claim Dany is evil, then Tywin Lannister, Tyrion Lannister, Robert Baratheon, Stannis Baratheon, Ned Stark, Rob Stark, Bran Stark, Tormund Giantsbane, Jorah Mormont, and many more are also all evil.

I don't remember any of them burning kids(other than one kid like Stannis). Tywin did close to that when he sacked the Red Keep off the Targaryen. But this pissed off Ned Stark so much that he never saw his friend Robert Baratheon ever again. If Robert and Tywin would have done the same thing again, Ned would have killed them.

Because that's what being good and honorable means.

 

[No More Subban]

Wars will happen forever. They continue to today.

The point was he let people die. If he knew this was going to happen he should’ve told people earlier.

Yes, Bran is somewhat evil as well for letting it happen. I agree on that.

But they did save the lives of millions of people around the world (Lannisport, Dorne, Qarth, all those places Dany mentioned during her victory speech.)

 

[Kimota]

I cant believe there are Daenerys apologists here. Haha. She was a genocidal mad queen. I can tell you right now she didnt have an ounce of good in her. She was actually rotten to the core from the start. Her freeing slaves was just an ends to a means...that being the throne. She didnt save slaves because it was inherently a good deed, she did it for the title, the prestige, the pat on the back, the accolades...for selfish reasons. She only wanted one thing from the start and that was unmitigated power. When she got a taste of that power like any crazed mad selfish ego maniac in kings landing, she wanted more. She wanted to "liberate" everyone an that meant mass genocide. Everyone should bow down before her, and if they dont...see yeah! Because apparently if your ruler doesnt bend the knee and you happen to live within the same vicinity you as a peasant just trying to live is just as much of a threat as the ruler that you live under. I mean when jon first met dani, the first thing she told him was to kneel. This chick was insane and full of herself, always so quick to tout her stupid titles. Yet we have some people infatuated by her psychotic words to Jon in the throne as a sign of her being morally righteous? She just murdered innocent children and didnt show an ounce of remorse. Shes a vile woman. Jon should have stabbed her 100 times.

Yea that was the story GRRM wanted to tell about Dany. In many ways she was like the ultimate SJW going on a crusade with a moral high ground but willing to do everything possible, every bad habits and monstrous things to achieve her goals.

She wanted to do two things, be the Breaker of Chains/Breaking the wheel and take the Throne that her family built for it. But in the end her desire for the Throne was greater than saving people. And so she did horrible things to people and placed it in her concept of Breaking the Wheel into a sick twisted way. The Throne was the carrot hanging that seemed so irresistible. That is why Drogon burned the Throne because it was the cause of all Evil on the show. The source for people killing themselves for power. All the greed, deceit, lies, etc....people have done to get to it. And what Dany has done was the apex of the Evil that the Throne caused. A thing created by a powerful Targaryen.

Aegon created this source of Evil. Aegon killed the last people infected by it. And then it's no more.

 

[Kriss E]

What do you mean it doesnt matter?

Why do you think Arya gets to explore the world?

Do you really think she'd leave Winterfell knowing Dany is Queen?

Why not? Her life mission was to kill Cersei. That's done. She can go explore whatever she wants. She never had beef with Dany, not sure why she would now. Oh...but Dany mentioned Winterfell...that means she's going to kill everyone there I suppose...lol

And that's why he made that speech to Jon. An obvious cry for help.

Another way to say he manipulated Jon.

Hell, yes. I don't see any wars coming.

What about a world with Dany as Queen? Is that a better place for you?

Why wouldn't it be? Has the people she's liberated complained? I'm sure everyone is real upset she came to help defend against the Night King too. Oh what a better world that would be had she not shown up...

 

[Kriss E]

Bran doesn't give a **** about Dany's death. Why would he punish Tyrion for it? If anything, he should throw a party for him. It made him a king.

Not sure where I said Tyrion should be punished by Bran..

The fate of the mad king was also Dany's. It's as clear as day. Why wait for more massacres when Jon can put an end to it before it gets even worst?

You don't have any proof there would actually be more massacres. What if they all just agree to bend the knee?..
Like..right now they were all getting screwed by 1) fear of NK/WWs and 2) Cersei on the Throne. She got rid of those two problems.
They repay her by killer her.

Dany's evil arc wouldn't even cover the introduction compared to the Mad King. Calling her the Mad Queen is an insult to the backstory of the Mad King.

So what if he's a kid? He's still the most powerful person at that time. A kid just doesn't order someone to behead people.

Yeah, out of control, something Dany is.

Joffrey was always evil. If you can't seperate his behavior to Dany's....I don't really know what to tell you man..Watch the first 4 seasons again I guess..

Democracy or not, there will always be OPPOSITION to whoever's ruling their world. Whether good or evil, there's someone out there who will oppose you.And some people are prepared to die for conspiring if it means saving the people/realms. Just look at Varys.

Right..so...there will be people against Bran, and Sansa, and whoever else. They live in a time where justice usually comes from a swift swing of the sword. So what happens when someone will defy Bran exactly? They will pay him in the form of skittles I suppose...

They didn't think of changing because they had years of peace. The one we're watching had full of wars, night army and dragon fire. Something that hasn't happened in thousands of years. They just need to put an end to that.

Yes, and they had peace under a ruler, even under the Mad King.

 

[sandviper]

I don't think we're ''overthinking''...I believe we are simply ''thinking''. The writers don't want you to think, just swallow whatever was simply put in front.
<snip>
In any event...what's done is done.

Pretty much this, plus as you mentioned the rushed season.

 

[Sorinth]

I don't remember any of them burning kids(other than one kid like Stannis). Tywin did close to that when he sacked the Red Keep off the Targaryen. But this pissed off Ned Stark so much that he never saw his friend Robert Baratheon ever again. If Robert and Tywin would have done the same thing again, Ned would have killed them.

Because that's what being good and honorable means.

Robert hired assassin's to murder children and no Ned didn't kill him for it.
Tywin ordered Gregor Clegane to rape and pillage the riverlands and it was strongly hinted that he ordered him to kill Rhaegar's wife and children.
Rob's army raped and pillaged the land during his rebellion

They all have the blood of innocent children on their hands. But we don't considered them evil because we expect. Really the only reason people are saying Dany is worse is because they saw it instead of it being background info that you know happens but don't see.

 

[Kimota]

Robert hired assassin's to murder children and no Ned didn't kill him for it.
Tywin ordered Gregor Clegane to rape and pillage the riverlands and it was strongly hinted that he ordered him to kill Rhaegar's wife and children.
Rob's army raped and pillaged the land during his rebellion

They all have the blood of innocent children on their hands. But we don't considered them evil because we expect. Really the only reason people are saying Dany is worse is because they saw it instead of it being background info that you know happens but don't see.

-First, Ned never directly know that Robert sent assassins cause he gave him his Hand of ther King badge over Robert wanting to do that.
-Rob's army never attacked civilians.
-Tywin did order Gregor to kill the children, there's no doubt about it. And yea they did that to Riverland too. THAT IS WHY NED DECLARED TYWIN AND THE MOUNTAIN ENEMIES OF THE REALM.

Cause that is what a good guy does.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

They made a point of calling the episode "The Bells"

Some seem to have a hard time understanding the significance.

And to those saying it sets an example are out for lunch.

The city abdicated. She burned it down anyway. This makes it more likely that future targets will try to defend their cities. You die if you do something and still die if you don't. Might as well go out fighting.

She was mad.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Robert hired assassin's to murder children and no Ned didn't kill him for it.
Tywin ordered Gregor Clegane to rape and pillage the riverlands and it was strongly hinted that he ordered him to kill Rhaegar's wife and children.
Rob's army raped and pillaged the land during his rebellion

They all have the blood of innocent children on their hands. But we don't considered them evil because we expect. Really the only reason people are saying Dany is worse is because they saw it instead of it being background info that you know happens but don't see.

Dude it's worst because they had surroundered. It was pointless and careless. All the other actions you named were done to confront a problem. In her case, the problem was over and done with.

She was ALREADY on top of it. It was simply mindless.

 

[Habs]

I'm still wondering why they didn't just put Bran 15 miles from King's Landing, and use him as bait for the night King. His army would have tracked him down, and went through the entire area, doing all the dirty work without sacrificing anything. Oh, and if the Knight King wouldn't have GTA'd one of Dany's dragons, how would they have gotten past the wall?

 

[Sorinth]

-First, Ned never directly know that Robert sent assassins cause he gave him his Hand of ther King badge over Robert wanting to do that.
-Rob's army never attacked civilians.
-Tywin did order Gregor to kill the children, there's no doubt about it. And yea they did that to Riverland too. THAT IS WHY NED DECLARED TYWIN AND THE MOUNTAIN ENEMIES OF THE REALM.

Cause that is what a good guy does.

It wasn't Robert's first attempt to have Daenrys killed and yes Ned knew about it. I'm almost 100% sure he even mentioned it at some point. It's also the reason the claimed Jon as his bastard because it was the only way to protect him. I could be wrong but I don't think Tywin was declared an enemy of the realm. I think it was only The Mountain.

Rob's army absolutely attacked civilians. The brotherhood without banners confirmed it. And we saw it with Jon's army too, his soldiers were raping and killing women during the sack.

 

[Sorinth]

Dude it's worst because they had surroundered. It was pointless and careless. All the other actions you named were done to confront a problem. In her case, the problem was over and done with.

She was ALREADY on top of it. It was simply mindless.

So it's ok to hire assassin's to kill the infant Daenerys because she hadn't surrendered?

And Daenerys she very much still had problems, her enemies would continue to try to use her mercy as a weakness unless she proved to the world that it wouldn't stop her.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

So it's ok to hire assassin's to kill the infant Daenerys because she hadn't surrendered?

You're so lost in your own narrative that you can't see past your opinion.

It makes no difference any way you try to twist moral relativity. She was asked to stop and spare lives if the bells rung.

If you attack after a population has abdicated, its wholesale genocidal slaughter. Full stop.

And Daenerys she very much still had problems, her enemies would continue to try to use her mercy as a weakness unless she proved to the world that it wouldn't stop her.

Not if she had simply obliterated the keep.

It's funny you repeat this fallacy, as if it was the epitome of truth, but it's not.

Doing what she did would make future targets more likely to fight as surrendering would seem a worst option than to fight.

But yeah, keep repeating the mad queen's irrational logic.