OT: Game of Thrones SPOILER Discussion - Here be tales of SPOILERS and drinking giant’s milk!!!

[Lshap]

Which means he wasn't some Bhudda like person who just accepts everything the way it is which is what @Lshap was saying.

What did you hear/see that suggested Bran wanted power, or in fact wanted anything for himself? He revealed the truth, like a security camera. Not the camera's fault how people use the information afterwards.

 

[Sorinth]

That's true, revealing what he saw certainly had an effect on some of the characters. Varys died because of it. So did Baelish. Not sure I agree about it being the cause of Dany burning KL. But in all those cases, Bran's role was to reveal events as they happened, not to manipulate the events themselves.

Well Dany straight up said she would have to rule through fear a moment after Jon pulled away from her. And like you said Varys wouldn't have betrayed her, Jon wouldn't have betrayed her by telling his sisters. All in all it's pretty obvious that it was that information and how people reacted to it that sent her down the path where she felt like she had to send a message and rule through fear.

Choosing what to reveal and what not to reveal absolutely manipulates events. It's basically exactly how Baelish and Varys had any power, by collecting information and then using it to further their own ends.

 

[Sorinth]

What did you hear/see that suggested Bran wanted power, or in fact wanted anything for himself? He revealed the truth, like a security camera. Not the camera's fault how people use the information afterwards.

That's like saying Varys didn't manipulate things either, he simply was a security camera that told people what his spies found out.

 

[No More Subban]

I mean...come on. She was married to Drogo, who was abandoned when injured. It's part of their tradition remember, the widow of a Khal can't leave. She stayed, took on the abuse, then when they're deciding what to do with her..rape her or sell her for 10 000 horses, she tells them to hear her side where she proceeds to insultingly tell them they aren't fit to lead the Dothraki and that she will.
At that point, they laugh saying they'll take turn raping her and after that, they'll let their horses do it too. Then she kills them. She comes out of that flamming barn showing she's immune to fire and takes over as their Khaleesi.
So ya...you left out quite a fair bit of information there, and it took time to create this storyline.

Yeah not really buying that. The point is, the Dothraki didn't avenge their khals.

They can talk about anything they want, it's up to them. Jon could have told Tyrion he's going to rule with Dany if he wanted. Could have explored multiple different angles.

That probably was an option. Until Tyrion reminds him of his sisters. Jon's more obviously a Stark than a Targaryen. The tension will never go away if Dany still lives.

Yes the war is over. Dany wanted the Throne as it belongs to a Tar. She killed Cersei who was holding it.
I don't know Sansa will just bend the knee..that's the point, we don't know, hence killing Dany was rushed. Maybe Sansa would have refused as you claim....or....maybe not...We don't know as this wasn't developed. They killed Dany before we could even know.

The war is over.. yeah that's an assumption. Something you accused me of.

As viewers, maybe we don't. But Tyrion knows. Jon knows. They obviously know the woman Sansa has become.

Jon ended her reign because that's what the writers wanted. That's all.
She has the Throne. She is now the ruler of the Seven Kingdoms. Now, she can rule as a Tyrant but that means not talking about a world of Mercy and Good, as she told Jon.
Or she can rule with Mercy and Kindness...as she's demonstrated since moving towards the Throne except for that one evil act she just committed.
All in all. We don't know what type of leader she'd be. She was very loved by her followers up to that point. Outside of a few who found what she did apparently terrible, the rest (unsullied, Dothraki, Northmen) didn't seem to mind at all.

But again, Jon knows what type of leader she'd be.

"We can't hide behind small mercies."

"They don't get to choose."

She thinks she's the ONLY one who knows what's good.

She's not even sorry for what she's done.

USA dropped two Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII, killing hundreds of thousands innocent people.
It was done to show the force of the US and put an end to the war. Less than a week after those bombings, Japan surrendered. Couple weeks later, Germany did too.

A necessary evil act. Now you can say Hitler was committing even bigger atrocities himself, which is true, but we also know Cersei was an evil **** herself but GOT never went into the general feels of the populations so it's not as intense.

Hmmm, what the USA has done, sounds to me exactly what Bran allowed to happen. Let a few die to save millions.

Actually yes. She did. Even after them ambushing her killing one of her Dragons, she still showed up to negotiate a surrender. Cersei had none of it and decided to chop off Missandei's head in the process.
Yes, they don't get to choose...That's what happens when there is a King or Queen. They rule their Kingdoms. She also said it would be a world of Mercy and Good. It's not any different now. Bran is the King, he's going to choose how things go. He just let his sister get a small piece of the pie because she's a spoiled brat.

Yeah, she's obviously only interested in negotiating when a friend of hers is in danger. Put Dany in Cersei's shoes, do you see Dany negotiating?

And also, outside Westeros, people get to choose under Cersei's reign. Cersei only cared about the seven kingdoms.

Dany wants to take over the world.

I don't hate it, I think it just makes no sense.
They were all there in front of Dany cheering, celebrating joyfully over their conquest of the Throne. 5 minutes later, she dies...*whomp whomp*....damn...Alright then, guess we'll go back home. Ciao ciao!

Because it's a suicide mission for them if they even touch Jon. He has a lot of supporters. GW/Unsullied are no match if the other kingdoms join forces together. I guess they're not savages or barbarians afterall as you claimed them to be.

If she didn't do it, what would prevent another Lord that disagreed with her to just do the same thing?
Jon wanted that Wildling sex...he happy now.

That she's nothing like Cersei? That she's capable of showing mercy?

The fact that she's not even sorry for what she did, that should tell you a lot the type of queen she's becoming. She's delusional.

 

[No More Subban]

I never got the impression Bran controlled events. He mostly observed them. Yeah, I know, Hodor. But those were exceptions. Almost all of his powers involved seeing, not doing. Did he foresee himself being crowned King? Yes. Did he influence the circumstances surrounding it? I didn't get that impression. His comment, "Why do you think I came all this way?", certainly proves he knew his fate, but not necessarily that he had any control over it. Same with Danaerys destroying Kings Landing. He may have watched/foreseen/predicted it, but there was no sign he could have prevented it or approved of it in any way.

Bran seemed like the ultimate Buddha. All-knowing and all-accepting, without a personal agenda. There was no sign he wanted power, but he accepted it as his fate.

In the end, his true motives were left unanswered and up to us to interpret.

I like that. Even if he warned Jon about Dany burning KL, there was really no way to stop it.

 

[Lshap]

That's like saying Varys didn't manipulate things either, he simply was a security camera that told people what his spies found out.

I was referring to Bran's supernatural abilities to manipulate or control. Unlike Varys, he had powers that made him a 'security camera'; they didn't give him the ability to control events (other than with Hodor). Yeah, there were huge consequences when Bran revealed those secrets, but was it done as part of a deliberate long-term plan? I didn't see any hint of that in the character. Nothing he said or did suggested he was pursuing an agenda; in fact, he was almost totally indifferent to the human drama going on around him.

If Bran really did checkmate everyone with nothing more than a few whispers, that means he saw the entire playing board and planned his moves years in advance. I admit that's a cool theory because it casts him as the mastermind that nobody suspected. The problem with that theory is that you'd expect some foreboding, some hint that this character was hiding something. And you'd expect some dark satisfaction once he pulled off the ultimate scam on the entire seven kingdoms.

If I'm going to buy that, I'll need something more than, "Why do you think I came all this way?".

 

[Kimota]

I wished they would add something like Bran warged into Drogon for a short while so that he would not kill Jon and that he would burn the Throne at the same time. It's two hits with one stone, you prevent your bro from dying and you destroy Jon's claim by destroying this Targaryen symbol so that Bran can be King and not Jon.

Also Bran and Tyrion had a discussion we didn't see at Winterfell. Interesting how both end up in such position of powers after that. Maybe Bran told Tyrion a few things. That would explain why Tyrion was so sure that Dany was going to win against Cersei and burn everything. Cause Bran told him. Come on HBO, give me a proper epilogue.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

I was referring to Bran's supernatural abilities to manipulate or control. Unlike Varys, he had powers that made him a 'security camera'; they didn't give him the ability to control events (other than with Hodor). Yeah, there were huge consequences when Bran revealed those secrets, but was it done as part of a deliberate long-term plan? I didn't see any hint of that in the character. Nothing he said or did suggested he was pursuing an agenda; in fact, he was almost totally indifferent to the human drama going on around him.

If Bran really did checkmate everyone with nothing more than a few whispers, that means he saw the entire playing board and planned his moves years in advance. I admit that's a cool theory because it casts him as the mastermind that nobody suspected. The problem with that theory is that you'd expect some foreboding, some hint that this character was hiding something. And you'd expect some dark satisfaction once he pulled off the ultimate scam on the entire seven kingdoms.

If I'm going to buy that, I'll need something more than, "Why do you think I came all this way?".

The irony is that Bran could've easily be shown to be a twist at the end but the delivery didn't suggest as much. What I saw was something far less interesting. Many people kind of brushed off Bran being king, some calling it stupid. There was no foreshadowing of any of this so its rather empty.

 

[Skip Bayless]

Foreshadowing is cheap also. It doesn't replace character/plot development. This is what the "But DANY burned people before" crowd doesn't get.

 

[Kriss E]

Yeah not really buying that. The point is, the Dothraki didn't avenge their khals.

What do you mean you dont buy it? I just wrote what happened in the show. Loll That's not my opinion, I recounted the events in the show. That's what happened man. Go back to watch of you don't remember.
Dany was part of the Dothraki, she was the wife of Khal Drogo. Shes Khaleesi. Why the hell would they avenge? Shes their Queen.
Jon and Tyrion are not part of the Unsullied or Dothraki. Like...apples to oranges.

That probably was an option. Until Tyrion reminds him of his sisters. Jon's more obviously a Stark than a Targaryen. The tension will never go away if Dany still lives.

If Jon accepts to rule with Dany he could have easily negotiated what happens with the North. And why is the onus always on Dany here? Why is it not on Sansa to grow the f*** up, and do what everyone else does, accept Dany as her Queen?
Shes being petty and you make it seem like Dany is the problem.
But again, they could have come to an agreement. Theres no reason to think Sansa and Dany are at such a disconnect with one another that they couldn't agree on anything.

The war is over.. yeah that's an assumption. Something you accused me of.

As viewers, maybe we don't. But Tyrion knows. Jon knows. They obviously know the woman Sansa has become.

Euh no. The War IS over.

But again, Jon knows what type of leader she'd be.

"We can't hide behind small mercies."

"They don't get to choose."

She thinks she's the ONLY one who knows what's good.

She's not even sorry for what she's done.

She doesnt think that. Shes the Queen, so it's her way. That's how it worked under Kings and Queens.
She also said it will be a world of Good and Mercy...but hey..dont quote that.

Hmmm, what the USA has done, sounds to me exactly what Bran allowed to happen. Let a few die to save millions.

So it's okay then?

Yeah, she's obviously only interested in negotiating when a friend of hers is in danger. Put Dany in Cersei's shoes, do you see Dany negotiating?

And also, outside Westeros, people get to choose under Cersei's reign. Cersei only cared about the seven kingdoms.

Dany wants to take over the world.

So? Why are you assuming that's automatically bad?

Because it's a suicide mission for them if they even touch Jon. He has a lot of supporters. GW/Unsullied are no match if the other kingdoms join forces together. I guess they're not savages or barbarians afterall as you claimed them to be.

Loll..No. Jon doesnt even have an army.

That she's nothing like Cersei? That she's capable of showing mercy?

The fact that she's not even sorry for what she did, that should tell you a lot the type of queen she's becoming. She's delusional.

That sounds very naive, people have already tried taking advantage of her kindness, but sure, now they'd be all be cool with her...Nothing shes done has shown a delusional of reality.

 

[Kriss E]

The irony is that Bran could've easily be shown to be a twist at the end but the delivery didn't suggest as much. What I saw was something far less interesting. Many people kind of brushed off Bran being king, some calling it stupid. There was no foreshadowing of any of this so its rather empty.

Pretty much. On so many of their decisions, it didnt feel like twists of previous missions that made you got “omg!”...instead it made you go “wtf..lame..”

 

[Lshap]

The irony is that Bran could've easily be shown to be a twist at the end but the delivery didn't suggest as much. What I saw was something far less interesting. Many people kind of brushed off Bran being king, some calling it stupid. There was no foreshadowing of any of this so its rather empty.

Agreed. And yeah, the more I think about it, Bran-the-Chess-Master would've been a great twist. Pawn takes King. Pawn takes Queen. But that's a different story that previews a different vision for this world.

I can accept Bran-the-Passenger because it presumes a nicer, gentler era, with a king who'll never behead people in a moment of pique. The last episode was all about a degree of social progress, so a ruler who isn't obsessed over power is a positive step in that direction. Now all they need is a high-council who can accomplish more than banter about the societal value of hookers.

 

[Lshap]

Foreshadowing is cheap also. It doesn't replace character/plot development. This is what the "But DANY burned people before" crowd doesn't get.

Foreshadowing isn't a gimmick (or at least shouldn't be). It's part of character development, in that you see traits that suggest motives/values/desires. Then later on those traits are manifested. In real life we often miss foreshadowing because we're not looking for it. We only recognize the danger signs in hindsight. In a fictional character the foreshadowing has to be a bit more explicit because we know there's a story arc.

 

[Kriss E]

Agreed. And yeah, the more I think about it, Bran-the-Chess-Master would've been a great twist. Pawn takes King. Pawn takes Queen. But that's a different story that previews a different vision for this world.

I can accept Bran-the-Passenger because it presumes a nicer, gentler era, with a king who'll never behead people in a moment of pique. The last episode was all about a degree of social progress, so a ruler who isn't obsessed over power is a positive step in that direction. Now all they need is a high-council who can accomplish more than banter about the societal value of hookers.

That's the thing though...why do you presume Bran to be “the passenger” is nicer?
That's the issue here, we have absolutely no idea what Bran is thinking, ever.
And plot twist, what we thought of Bran, ie he doesnt care about the throne and is entirely neutral, uninterested, just a presenter of facts, now we know he is fully personally driven. This is a side of Bran that was never explored. Is Bran nice? or is he a self serving nutter? We actually have no idea. Tyrion pushing for him made no sense what so ever.
If anything, Tyrion is calculated, like Varys, like Littlefinger, those guys use their smarts to get them ahead. How can Tyrion do that with someone he...never even communicated with?..It makes no sense man. It feels like they wanted to just throw a curveball into the mix just for the sake of it.

 

[McGuires Corndog]

What do you mean you dont buy it? I just wrote what happened in the show. Loll That's not my opinion, I recounted the events in the show. That's what happened man. Go back to watch of you don't remember.
Dany was part of the Dothraki, she was the wife of Khal Drogo. Shes Khaleesi. Why the hell would they avenge? Shes their Queen.
Jon and Tyrion are not part of the Unsullied or Dothraki. Like...apples to oranges.

If Jon accepts to rule with Dany he could have easily negotiated what happens with the North. And why is the onus always on Dany here? Why is it not on Sansa to grow the **** up, and do what everyone else does, accept Dany as her Queen?
Shes being petty and you make it seem like Dany is the problem.
But again, they could have come to an agreement. Theres no reason to think Sansa and Dany are at such a disconnect with one another that they couldn't agree on anything.


Euh no. The War IS over.


She doesnt think that. Shes the Queen, so it's her way. That's how it worked under Kings and Queens.
She also said it will be a world of Good and Mercy...but hey..dont quote that.


So it's okay then?


So? Why are you assuming that's automatically bad?

Loll..No. Jon doesnt even have an army.


That sounds very naive, people have already tried taking advantage of her kindness, but sure, now they'd be all be cool with her...Nothing shes done has shown a delusional of reality.

That’s... not true.

He had all the houses in the North behind him. He has the free folk/wildlings behind him. He has storms end (Gendry/House Baratheon) behind him, plus it’s hinted that others would stand behind him too. He’s a legitimate war hero in the eyes of most of the Westerosi.

If you think GW could just murder Jon Snow and sail off to Qaarth without consequence... It would trigger another war, whether or not the forces standing behind Snow are enough to take down the remaining Unsullied&Dothraki are up to debate, but there would be massive losses regardless of who won. They also don’t have any more dragons, which is what allowed them to win the Battle of Winterfell and take Kings Landing with minimal losses.

 

[Adam Michaels]

That's the thing though...why do you presume Bran to be “the passenger” is nicer?
That's the issue here, we have absolutely no idea what Bran is thinking, ever.

If you couldn't tell what Bran was thinking, that's on you, man. Look at that range.

 

[MC94]

I like that. Even if he warned Jon about Dany burning KL, there was really no way to stop it.

The past is written, the ink is already dry. Perhaps the future is no different in a sense. Just like how the show is done and we will never get a the ending we all craved no matter how many people sign that petition

 

[Lebowski]

I’m fine with the conclusion of major story arcs, even though I was surprised in Bran’s case.

What I absolutely hate is how the show got us to that point. With the amount of material they had to work with, the show could have easily gone on for an extra season for the sake of making it all more cohesive. Apparently, HBO offered D&D 10 episodes for the final season and they declined...

 

[Lshap]

That's the thing though...why do you presume Bran to be “the passenger” is nicer?
That's the issue here, we have absolutely no idea what Bran is thinking, ever.
And plot twist, what we thought of Bran, ie he doesnt care about the throne and is entirely neutral, uninterested, just a presenter of facts, now we know he is fully personally driven. This is a side of Bran that was never explored. Is Bran nice? or is he a self serving nutter? We actually have no idea. Tyrion pushing for him made no sense what so ever.
If anything, Tyrion is calculated, like Varys, like Littlefinger, those guys use their smarts to get them ahead. How can Tyrion do that with someone he...never even communicated with?..It makes no sense man. It feels like they wanted to just throw a curveball into the mix just for the sake of it.

My lasting impression of Bran as the passenger is because he said and did nothing that suggested he cared about anything. "Why do you think I came all this way?" sounded like he was called for jury duty. You show up because you're expected to, not because you really care. That was Bran. He got summoned to meetings with the Night King and the council of leftover lords, and then he was summoned to become king. Each of those developments were major story moments for everyone else, meanwhile Bran barely registered an expression. He did what was expected of him while staring into space.

It's hard to attach any motivation to a character who was consistently disengaged from everything around him. Dude looked like he was on a four-season acid trip.

I agree about Tyrion being a weird choice to push for Bran's ascension. Arya would've been the best character to select Bran. She stands up and argues on behalf of her silent, weird brother. The older men ridicule this upstart young girl. Then somebody reminds them that this is the girl took out the Night King and the men quietly slink back to their seats.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

That's the thing though...why do you presume Bran to be “the passenger” is nicer?
That's the issue here, we have absolutely no idea what Bran is thinking, ever.
And plot twist, what we thought of Bran, ie he doesnt care about the throne and is entirely neutral, uninterested, just a presenter of facts, now we know he is fully personally driven. This is a side of Bran that was never explored. Is Bran nice? or is he a self serving nutter? We actually have no idea. Tyrion pushing for him made no sense what so ever.
If anything, Tyrion is calculated, like Varys, like Littlefinger, those guys use their smarts to get them ahead. How can Tyrion do that with someone he...never even communicated with?..It makes no sense man. It feels like they wanted to just throw a curveball into the mix just for the sake of it.

While I agree, one correction.

Earlier in the season Tyrion sat down with Bran and did have a conversation. I believe it was episode 2.

 

[OldCraig71]

It's over.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

It's over.

You 100% sure?

 

[OldCraig71]

You 100% sure?

Well, tbh I kind of felt like they left the door open for something in the future but there is no point in debating what was, it's over. The series went downhill once they had to improvise and try and keep it going. Looking back on old scenes, the dialogue was so much better and the story much more interesting even without all of the violence. They went Hollywood at the end and it failed.

 

[Kriss E]

That’s... not true.

He had all the houses in the North behind him. He has the free folk/wildlings behind him. He has storms end (Gendry/House Baratheon) behind him, plus it’s hinted that others would stand behind him too. He’s a legitimate war hero in the eyes of most of the Westerosi.

If you think GW could just murder Jon Snow and sail off to Qaarth without consequence... It would trigger another war, whether or not the forces standing behind Snow are enough to take down the remaining Unsullied&Dothraki are up to debate, but there would be massive losses regardless of who won. They also don’t have any more dragons, which is what allowed them to win the Battle of Winterfell and take Kings Landing with minimal losses.

He has people backing him up, they're not his armies. The only army he commanded was the Night Watch, and that's over and done with.
Also, those people behind him, they do it because of a threat he's convinced them of. It wouldn't be the same in a war versus the Unsullied and Dothrakis. They could easily tell him to fight his own battles.
Also, GW wouldn't kill Jon out of nowhere. Ya...it would upset some, but then, he killed Dany so payback is warranted. Furthermore, Dany herself had multiple armies, and she was loved, yet they did nothing after her assassination but if they killed Jon to retaliate, that would cause a War?..Ya, no.

 

[Kriss E]

My lasting impression of Bran as the passenger is because he said and did nothing that suggested he cared about anything. "Why do you think I came all this way?" sounded like he was called for jury duty. You show up because you're expected to, not because you really care. That was Bran. He got summoned to meetings with the Night King and the council of leftover lords, and then he was summoned to become king. Each of those developments were major story moments for everyone else, meanwhile Bran barely registered an expression. He did what was expected of him while staring into space.

He said that after he was asked whether he would accept being named the King, so that's him saying yes, not literally asking Tyrion why he thought he came here.

It's hard to attach any motivation to a character who was consistently disengaged from everything around him. Dude looked like he was on a four-season acid trip.

Agreed. That's why it was such a stupid plot twist.

I agree about Tyrion being a weird choice to push for Bran's ascension. Arya would've been the best character to select Bran. She stands up and argues on behalf of her silent, weird brother. The older men ridicule this upstart young girl. Then somebody reminds them that this is the girl took out the Night King and the men quietly slink back to their seats.

Bran becoming King would be bad no matter who suggests it. He's never shown any interest, he says that he's not even Bran Stark anymore, he's the 3 eyes Raven. He can see into the past and future, therefore, when politically driven, he will do some serious damage. He's just a terrible pick as we know him. His character wasn't developed enough.