TV: Game of Thrones | Season 8 (Final) | Part IX -TV talk ONLY -NO Books, Spoilers, NO LEAKS

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Daisy Jane

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I'm pretty sure he's just full of **** and is self-serving and manipulative to anyone he talks with.

that makes sense. I haven't read the books so i don't now if that was supposed to be something that should have been shown more on the show.

I also feel so bad for Shae but this makes me confused too. she's not dumb, and she should have figured out why Therion was mean to her, but to go from 0 to I'm gonna kill Therion and sleep with Tywin never made sense to me
 

Siamese Dream

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that makes sense. I haven't read the books so i don't now if that was supposed to be something that should have been shown more on the show.

I also feel so bad for Shae but this makes me confused too. she's not dumb, and she should have figured out why Therion was mean to her, but to go from 0 to I'm gonna kill Therion and sleep with Tywin never made sense to me

Shae was an idiot, she is indeed dumb.

She either didn't understand or flat out refused to understand anything Tyrion said or did, throughout. Her only redeeming qualities/actions were anything she did to help Sansa.
 
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Shae was an idiot, she is indeed dumb.

She either didn't understand or flat out refused to understand anything Tyrion said or did, throughout. Her only redeeming qualities/actions were anything she did to help Sansa.
Yeah. She never understood the gravity of the situation despite Tyrion telling her over and over.
 

x Tame Impala

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doing a GoT re-watch and watching the aftermath of the red wedding.
Roose said that Robb ignored his advice at every turn. When exactly was this? the only thing i can remember when everyone told Robb not to cut off Carstark's head but i don't remember anything else.

I'm pretty sure he's just full of **** and is self-serving and manipulative to anyone he talks with.

Didn't he also tell him not to marry that girl?

Regardless, seasons 5 & 6 being kinda average and season 7 being more focused on epic scale and action instead of character development and plot...it's easy for me to forget how well GoT handles plot, characters, storytelling, and world building. There are so many main characters with their own growths and regressions and it's done very well. Poor Robb...put into a position he was too young for and was a victim of his own inexperience
 

Daisy Jane

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Didn't he also tell him not to marry that girl?

Regardless, seasons 5 & 6 being kinda average and season 7 being more focused on epic scale and action instead of character development and plot...it's easy for me to forget how well GoT handles plot, characters, storytelling, and world building. There are so many main characters with their own growths and regressions and it's done very well. Poor Robb...put into a position he was too young for and was a victim of his own inexperience

that was Cat.
Robb basically went "Okay." then married her. in the first few episodes Carstark said that the war was lost the moment Robb did it.

see... yes. but no. Robb was smart. remember he won every battle, but lost the war, but the reasons why was because of "Starkism" that i've called it. It's true that he was able to see issues that were arising but he never saw the game from their eyes (like Ned and Jon, reasons why all 3 ended up dead).

for example.
he says he'd do anything to get his father
Cat goes "you need to marry the Frey girl."
Robb says yes. and a good chunk of the reason why he didn't was because he thought they were all plain and ugly (remember everyone's reaction when Edmure saw Rosalyn for the first time? Even Robb was like 'whoa." and Walder had that look).

Then he meets Talisa and basically everyone's like. have your fun but keep your eyes on the prize. Cat and he talked and she pointed out that she never chose her father, nor loved him but she grew to love him, and Ned her. It was literally in one ear and out the other.

Then where he lost people was
1: Cat letting Jaime go.
2: Not understanding how mad people were about that (he kept saying it, but he never truly comprehended it)
3: Not allowing the carstarks to satisfy their need for justice.
4: Not explaining to people what his plans were (see: Edmure, Mountain and the Mill).
5: not understanding/not caring how mad Frey would be about slighting him (though the Red Wedding wouldn't have been in anyone's world. considering it broke Guest rights).

The think with Starks is that they expect everyone to play the game the way they view the world. (which as was pointed out, the world as everyone knows it is falling apart so maybe...). but the utter lack of communication or not seeing how other people will assume things (or think how they figure it out they'll be "well ill be honourable).

He also didn't have the "fear of God" that Tywin commanded (this is due to age imo). Tywin would have done something to shut up Carstark about vengeance (though, had Carstark had done what he had, Tywin would have taken the long game in punishing them).
 
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Blender

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Robb won every battle but lost the war because he was tactically brilliant and strategically incompetent.
 
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CokenoPepsi

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Am I the only won who agrees with Robb in letting Jamie live?

He knew what Tywin thought about family and Jamie he could have ended the war I thought by auctioning him back to Tywin or at least the threat of harm.
 
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x Tame Impala

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Then where he lost people was
1: Cat letting Jaime go.
2: Not understanding how mad people were about that (he kept saying it, but he never truly comprehended it)
3: Not allowing the carstarks to satisfy their need for justice.
4: Not explaining to people what his plans were (see: Edmure, Mountain and the Mill).
5: not understanding/not caring how mad Frey would be about slighting him (though the Red Wedding wouldn't have been in anyone's world. considering it broke Guest rights).

Seems he ultimately failed in unifying the North. It clearly wasn't enough for him to gather everyone up with solely through Ned's beheading. The separate houses were too focused on their own individual wants and needs and at times didn't see the bigger picture. The rebellion wasn't built on a strong enough foundation and Robb didn't see it. When you're apparently dealing with such myopic house leaders who can't understand the politics of Jamie's life being spared (Karstark) or seeing marriage as the end all be all of houses (Frey), Robb failed to see that they couldn't be counted on to focus on defeating the Lannisters and deal with the rest later.

Stratocracies are bad ways to get things done, especially when the leader is some 21 year old kid. It was all so sloppy. Again, Robb was a victim of his own youth and inexperience, as well as the weak people who surrounded him. He never stood a chance
 

Blender

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He was a great soldier and a **** politician.
That as well, but for all his battle victories he gained very little strategically. He essentially overextended his forces and was drawn into a war of attrition he couldn't win.
 

x Tame Impala

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I wonder how if Robb's and Jon's roles were switched, how their characters would've handled things differently
 

Daisy Jane

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Am I the only won who agrees with Robb in letting Jamie live?

He knew what Tywin thought about family and Jamie he could have ended the war I thought by auctioning him back to Tywin or at least the threat of harm.

he was right
and Cat was wrong in letting him go (which hurt the effort).
I think once Ned died it stopped (for Robb imo) being about "getting the girls back." and just hurting Lannisters.

If i were Robb, as much as it sucked. you sue for peace.
let the North be independent
get his sisters, trade Jaime.
 

Daisy Jane

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Seems he ultimately failed in unifying the North. It clearly wasn't enough for him to gather everyone up with solely through Ned's beheading. The separate houses were too focused on their own individual wants and needs and at times didn't see the bigger picture. The rebellion wasn't built on a strong enough foundation and Robb didn't see it. When you're apparently dealing with such myopic house leaders who can't understand the politics of Jamie's life being spared (Karstark) or seeing marriage as the end all be all of houses (Frey), Robb failed to see that they couldn't be counted on to focus on defeating the Lannisters and deal with the rest later.

Stratocracies are bad ways to get things done, especially when the leader is some 21 year old kid. It was all so sloppy. Again, Robb was a victim of his own youth and inexperience, as well as the weak people who surrounded him. He never stood a chance


which is why he shoulda listened to his mother ;)
or. apparently Roose Bolton. (to which again, I don't remember, and I've just watched the first 4 seasons, Roose telling Robb anything).

That as well, but for all his battle victories he gained very little strategically. He essentially overextended his forces and was drawn into a war of attrition he couldn't win.

well to Tame Impala's point maybe it was due to youth.
he was making inroads though. Tywin's rant in Harranhal to Arya and his lords were proof, but i guess just lacked the smarts that Tywin had to twist it. I don't even remember when they lost so many people (though the Lannister army was always one of the largest of the land).

it was also interesting - that Tywin went straight to Olenna and forged an alliance (basically ending it all). strange that Olenna/Margery didn't think to back the North. (but I'm assuming because everyone thought Lannister was the richest/second richest and already had "the claim" to the throne, and that was more important than the largest kingdom that of the North - (and they always want independence).


I wonder how if Robb's and Jon's roles were switched, how their characters would've handled things differently

the same.
a lot of Jon's growth was due to Mormont teaching him how to be a leader. (and even then - he Stark'ed himself in season five). - but he's still grew a lot in the role of being a leader, which is why leadership keeps finding him (Lord Commander, King of the North,and of course ultimately, unless the show does a twist - King of of... whatever the whole spiel is).
 

darko

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Correct. Jon had his Stark moment too, he was just more fortunate than Robb.
 

Blender

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Correct. Jon had his Stark moment too, he was just more fortunate than Robb.
I don't think Jon ditches his oath to the Freys for love though. He essentially sacrificed someone he loved for the greater good in Ygritte.
 

Blender

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ping.
and he didn't lie to Cersei about bending the knee to Dani.
he would have married Frey girl that day if necessary.
Jon is honest and noble to a fault, which is why he commands so much respect and loyalty from people around him, but also why he's so vulnerable to scheming.
 

Eisen

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Shae was an idiot, she is indeed dumb.

She either didn't understand or flat out refused to understand anything Tyrion said or did, throughout. Her only redeeming qualities/actions were anything she did to help Sansa.
She didn't care about it. She wanted to go away with him. I thought that was made pretty obvious.
 
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