GDT: Game #9 | Detroit Red Wings @ Phoenix Coyotes | 9:00 PM EST | FS-D

[Brandel*]

No.

That's lazy. This isn't a "professional debating league." So feel free to say whatever you want. Just don't expect anyone to take you seriously unless you have at least a modicum of support for it.

Again, didn't do that either. I just said he had no evidence for his assertion. It's amazing how upset people get when they get called out for that. You should see what happens to people who get asked to provide a source for "Datsyuk specifically asked to play with Abdelkader."

I disagree with your top post, but there's nothing more I can really say on the topic. And for the bold, I have seen, many times, when you ask for it in r/detroitredwings or r/hockey. I'm with you there, no such thing exists, yet you'll get downvoted and get thrown nonsense.

 

[Henkka]

Would not surprise me if they have agreed in principle to trading Tootoo and that is why he isn't dressing.

The are dressing Sammy, because one guy (Kronwall) is missing from the PP point.

Kindl will take Kronner's spot at 1st unit and Sammy will go to 2nd unit to replace Kindl.

 

[golffuul]

Per Babcock: "Sammy is going in, Toots is coming out. Not because Toots did anything wrong, without Kronner on the PP we want to put Sammy in to have a PP guy." (Source)

As much as we all would LOVE a trade to happen, doesn't mean every little detail is a trade brewing.

But if you are actually sincere in wanting your PP to be better...who would you put in, Samuelsson or Tatar? Samuelsson is less likely to be able to get to a puck because of his lack of speed. And that's important because he is on the blue line.

That Tatar has only seen one game, thus far, just reads to me as Samuelsson and Tootoo being shown around as being useful for someone to think about in a trade...which is ultimately what Detroit wants to shed some salary for when Helm/Eaves return in 7 days.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Yeah, just to be clear. I think both of them should be in the lineup and getting some top 6 and PP time. I just don't think Babcock and Holland deserve all the scorn they get around here. I think they've done a good job guiding this team through a transition. We haven't had to endure what Pittsburgh, Chicago, Edmonton, Toronto, etc. fans have had to endure over the years. I think the future is bright in Detroit.

For the future to be truly bright we need to start playing some of these kids. We are stuck in kind of a limbo right now, it is a competitive team, so fine you don't want to play Tatar, get aggressive and go land Vanek and ship him out of town before he leaves scorned anyway.

But they are hedging bets, it is part of the reason we have not had to deal with some of the same things as the teams you named over the last two and a half decades, but it is time to pull the trigger one way or the other. Either play these kids or go all out to be a top dog contender.

We have two different windows for this team, one is the future and one is now. Well the bottleneck is getting serious enough we need to make some hard choices, choices they failed on by in large this summer. But it is time, if Babcock won't play him it is time to trade him.

Tatar is an RFA at the end of this year
Nyquist out of options after this year
Sheahan same
Ferraro same
Glendening same
Callahan same
Almqvist same

Now they can control some of these guys with RFA status, but still the logjam is just getting completely out of control. People need to be moved or cut or waived, it is going to happen, they got their two week bye on it but this problem is just becoming worse and Holland needs to be honest with himself about it. He also needs to remember he is the GM and not the coaches best friend, if Babcock wants to quit over maybe losing some of his guys for Hollands guys, get on with it, your the boss.

He got a nice little two week reprieve from doing his job the last two weeks, well it is hard decision time with Helm coming back of LTIR, so get to it. But this bright future is turning into a bunch of rightfully angry prospects that are having their growth stunted and their wallets hurt, that is going to be bad at some point in the long-run if we don't start addressing this.

 

[DatsyukToZetterberg]

Just curious, has Tatar made comments to any media lately, like any at all since his last start? Just wondering because I would definitely expect him to be getting very frustrated at this point with Sammy being put in after only playing 1/8.

I follow him in facebook, I'm not sure if it's the real him, and he said this a couple of days ago:

"Day off in Pheonix seems like vacation. I hope I ll be in line up soon just have to continue work hard and stay positive. thanks a lot for support guys"

The original quote was in Slovakian (?) so that's the translated version.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

But if you are actually sincere in wanting your PP to be better...who would you put in, Samuelsson or Tatar? Samuelsson is less likely to be able to get to a puck because of his lack of speed. And that's important because he is on the blue line.

That Tatar has only seen one game, thus far, just reads to me as Samuelsson and Tootoo being shown around as being useful for someone to think about in a trade...which is ultimately what Detroit wants to shed some salary for when Helm/Eaves return in 7 days.

Best part being from about February on last season in GR, Billins slid down to the half wall and guess who played the point?

Um... Yeah Tatar.

 

[The Zermanator]

Claims without any evidence can be dismissed out of hand. That's how it works. You can't go around claiming that everything in the universe works by undetectable pink unicorns and expect people to take you seriously. If you make an assertion, support it with something or don't expect anyone to take you seriously.

And I hardly scolded him. "I don't make assumptions about bad character when there's 0 evidence for it." That's one hell of a tongue lashing I tell you what.

All I said was ''Maybe he's an attitude case or he doesn't work hard enough in practice, I don't know.''

That's not a claim. That's speculation. A claim would be "Tatar HAS an attitude case and doesn't work hard in practice." But that's not what I said, is it? As for evidence, I'll freely admit that the evidence (if you can even call it that) is circumstantial. Here's the reality about Babcock's coaching career:

- 1994 CIS National Champion with U of Lethbridge
- 1997 IIHF World Junior Championship - Gold
- 2004 IIHF World Hockey Championship - Gold
- 2008 Stanley Cup Champion
- 2010 Winter Olympics Gold Medal

So I was speculating due to the circumstantial evidence which is that a great coach (FACT) is not playing an exciting, talented young player which led me to think that maybe something was happening behind the scenes that we anonymous internet posters would not be aware of.

And finally, why so hostile? We're all rooting for the same team, right?

 

[golffuul]

Best part being from about February on last season in GR, Billins slid down to the half wall and guess who played the point?

Um... Yeah Tatar.

Exactly my point. Tatar is the better natural scorer...has a hard shot and better speed to reach a puck.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

The are dressing Sammy, because one guy (Kronwall) is missing from the PP point.

Kindl will take Kronner's spot at 1st unit and Sammy will go to 2nd unit to replace Kindl.

With Helm coming back though, a shoe has to drop unless an injury happens. I get the reasoning behind the PP decision if you truly believe Sammy should be that guy and Babcock does which is unfortunate.

But a guy that has played well in three straight, but still is an aggressive player coming off a shoulder injury also is an ideal guy to sit if you think you will be able to move him or he is waiver fodder early next week.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

I follow him in facebook, I'm not sure if it's the real him, and he said this a couple of days ago:

"Day off in Pheonix seems like vacation. I hope I ll be in line up soon just have to continue work hard and stay positive. thanks a lot for support guys"

The original quote was in Slovakian (?) so that's the translated version.

His attitude seems good to me. I'm sure he wishes he was in the lineup, but it sounds like he still has the idea that he's going to work his way in with time. He's saying the right things.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

All I said was ''Maybe he's an attitude case or he doesn't work hard enough in practice, I don't know.''

That's not a claim. That's speculation. A claim would be "Tatar HAS an attitude case and doesn't work hard in practice." But that's not what I said, is it? As for evidence, I'll freely admit that the evidence (if you can even call it that) is circumstantial. Here's the reality about Babcock's coaching career:

- 1994 CIS National Champion with U of Lethbridge
- 1997 IIHF World Junior Championship - Gold
- 2004 IIHF World Hockey Championship - Gold
- 2008 Stanley Cup Champion
- 2010 Winter Olympics Gold Medal

So I was speculating due to the circumstantial evidence which is that a great coach (FACT) is not playing an exciting, talented young player which led me to think that maybe something was happening behind the scenes that we anonymous internet posters would not be aware of.

And finally, why so hostile? We're all rooting for the same team, right?

Believe only one coach in NHL history has gone more than five seasons in between winning a Stanley Cup with the same franchise, Bowman with us.

Babcock has a lot of accolades to be sure, but he isn't infallible either. The Ducks won directly after they replaced him.

Some of the luster on Babcock is likely going away as soon as February is over and Canada fails to medal.

Still he is a HHOF coach, but Bowman, Phil Jackson, Larry Brown have talked about the merits of moving around as a head coach and how a message can get stale or ideas too entrenched if you stay in one place too long.

I think he has too much power on this team right now.

 

[Henkka]

Here's the reality about Babcock's coaching career:

- 1994 CIS National Champion with U of Lethbridge
- 1997 IIHF World Junior Championship - Gold
- 2004 IIHF World Hockey Championship - Gold
- 2008 Stanley Cup Champion
- 2010 Winter Olympics Gold Medal

You forgot something...

- 1989 Provicial Collegiate Championship - Red Deer College (Coach of the Year)
- 1994 CIS National Champion with U of Lethbridge (Coach of the Year)
- 1996 WHL West Division - Coach of the Year
- 1997 IIHF World Junior Championship - Gold
- 2000 WHL West Division - Coach of the Year
- 2001 AHL Cincinnati Mighty Ducks - 41 wins, 95 points - Regular season Franchise record
- 2003 Stanley Cup finalist
- 2004 IIHF World Hockey Championship - Gold
- 2006 President's Trophy Winner
- 2008 Stanley Cup Champion
- 2009 Stanley Cup finalist
- 2010 Winter Olympics Gold Medal

 

[Brandel*]

Believe only one coach in NHL history has gone more than five seasons in between winning a Stanley Cup with the same franchise, Bowman with us.

Babcock has a lot of accolades to be sure, but he isn't infallible either. The Ducks won directly after they replaced him.

Some of the luster on Babcock is likely going away as soon as February is over and Canada fails to medal.

Still he is a HHOF coach, but Bowman, Phil Jackson, Larry Brown have talked about the merits of moving around as a head coach and how a message can get stale or ideas too entrenched if you stay in one place too long.

I think he has too much power on this team right now.

heh

 

[Chance on Chance]

Why don't we have Smith who we drafted for his offense play 2nd PP instead of dressing Sammy to play the point

 

[Frk It]

Why don't we have Smith who we drafted for his offense play 2nd PP instead of dressing Sammy to play the point

Babcock seems to think having right-handed forwards play the left point is neccessary. Even though they would all be better served to play LW on the PP.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

heh

Best I can see them doing is Bronze, I think Russia and Sweden are hooking up for the Gold Medal game.

One of Canada or USA is going home empty handed maybe both, but I will go with the team that is going to have the worst goaltending of the power hockey countries and that is Canada. You might be able to say Russia depending on what you think of Varlamov or Bobrovsky. I give them the edge over what I expect out of Canada, plus I think home ice and more importantly international ice is a big factor in that tournament.

 

[DatsyukToZetterberg]

Why don't we have Smith who we drafted for his offense play 2nd PP instead of dressing Sammy to play the point

Because for whatever reason the Wings feel like offense won't be Smith's game & they rather he develop into a Stuart like player. Both were highly regarded offensive inclined prospects but fell flat on their faces, Stuart was given a chance to produce offense though & failed.

 

[Sadekuuro]

Samuelsson doesn't produce a ******* thing on the point anyway so why the insistence to get him there?

Babcock has a lot of accolades to be sure, but he isn't infallible either. The Ducks won directly after they replaced him.

What? In between they completely revamped the lineup, cleaning house with the team's previous top players, acquiring the league's second and third best defensemen, and bringing up kids like Getzlaf, Perry and Penner. It's not like Carlyle won with even remotely the same roster.

Also not sure on your Bowman point, as there were only three seasons between the '98 and '02 Cups?

 

[Syckle78]

The reactions on here if Canada failed to medal would be hilarious and epic. Sorry friends from the north I hope it happens for my own selfish entertainment.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Samuelsson doesn't produce a ******* thing on the point anyway so why the insistence to get him there

It's called stubbornness and an inability to adapt.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Samuelsson doesn't produce a ******* thing on the point anyway so why the insistence to get him there?



What? In between they completely revamped the lineup, cleaning house with the team's previous top players, acquiring the league's second and third best defensemen, and bringing up kids like Getzlaf, Perry and Penner. It's not like Carlyle won with even remotely the same roster.

Also not sure on your Bowman point, as there were only three seasons between the '98 and '02 Cups?

I don't understand anything to do with Sammy on the point, perhaps the coaching decision I dislike the most about Babcock's entire tenure is that one.

I think it is actually Toe Blake or Jack Adams, got a little crossed up, but the point is it is actually unusual once you get a couple seasons away for them to return to their winning ways. You can talk about team turnover and some of those things, but it is worth noting if you look at the list, there aren't big long breaks in between titles with the same team and coach often.

Like I said many famous coaches have talked about the fact they feel if you're in the same place to long your message gets stale.

 

[Henkka]

Like I said many famous coaches have talked about the fact they feel if you're in the same place to long your message gets stale.

I don't buy this theory in our case, because our team has changed a lot during these years. Also, it seems like there isnt any kind of problem with our leading players hearing this "same message". When your leading players (Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall) are buying this "same message", everybody is doing it.

9th season with Babcock:
- Datsyuk
- Zetterberg
- Kronwall
- Franzen
- Cleary

6th season with Babcock:
- Ericsson
- Helm
- Abdelkader
- Bertuzzi
- Samuelsson

5th season with Babcock:
- Howard
- Eaves
- Miller
- Quincey

4th season with Babcock:
- Kindl
- Emmerton

3rd season with Babock:
- Smith
- Nyquist

2nd season with Babcock:
- Andersson
- Tatar
- Tootoo
- Lashoff
- Gustavsson
- DeKeyser
- Mrazek

1st season with Babcock:
- Alfredsson
- Weiss
- Glendening

 

[Sadekuuro]

He's right in general though; it is indeed rare for a coach to win with a team, stick around, and then do it again several years later (without consistent success in the interim).

 

[DatsyukToZetterberg]

He's right in general though; it is indeed rare for a coach to win with a team, stick around, and then do it again several years later (without consistent success in the interim).

Might be the sample size isn't really large enough. Once a coach wins with a team the expectation is for them to be contenders every year from there on out. It's not very often you would see a coach stick with a team long enough to win the cup, go through a rebuild/retool & then win it again.

 

[TKB]

He's right in general though; it is indeed rare for a coach to win with a team, stick around, and then do it again several years later (without consistent success in the interim).

The reality is that since the end of the Oilers Dynasty, it is very rare for a coach to win the Stanley Cup twice under any circumstances.

Since the end of the "Dynasty Era" there are only two coaches who have one the Stanley Cup more than once:

Scotty Bowman
Joel Quenneville