GDT: Game #9 | Detroit Red Wings @ Phoenix Coyotes | 9:00 PM EST | FS-D

[Sadekuuro]

Samuelsson in for tootoo

Ansar Khan ‏@AnsarKhanMLive 12m
Babcock said Samuelsson in for Tootoo is only change up front.

Well damn, the winning streak was fun while it lasted

Seriously, as far as we already are from icing the best possible lineup, this is yet another step in the wrong direction.

 

[Brandel*]

Yes. Since there are so many assumption based discussions, shouldn't be hard for you to identify a couple.

Also, you calling it an assumption that the coach of a hockey team would be in charge of deciding which hockey players are playing is hilaaaaaarious.

My analogy is spot on.

Are you kidding me? Other than pure statistical discussion this entire website is "If this were to happen what would be the consequences" If you don't see that then I really don't know what to say. You don't have to look furth than the today's posts section if you're interested in seeing assumption-driven discussion. Even your argument here is assumption based, as there really isn't any fact behind it whatsoever. It's driven by past experiences and past situations involving Babcock's decision making.

In regards to your second part, I never made a single claim that someone else was in charge or anything along those lines. We're discussing the reasons Babcock has to bench Tatar, not whether it's his decision or not...

 

[Kronwalled55]

Keep it rolling. The last time Phoenix beat us 2 times in a row, playoffs included, was March of 2011 (and the games were 5 months apart), so I think odds are on our side.

 

[Flowah]

You guys are saying that Babcock doesn't give new players a chance and has an obsession with size. Doesn't explain DeKeyser (skinny) and Brunner (small) who were both rookies when playing for Babcock. Also Babcock loves Helm, who isn't big at all.

The defense is easy to explain. Dekeyser is 6'3 200 pounds. You can call him skinny, and he can surely pack on a few more pounds, but he's not small. Tatar is 5'9 and 176. The difference is obvious, and to say otherwise is willful blindness. Moreover, our defense has been decimated in the past 3 years. We lost a ton of talent with no one to replace them. Of course it's easier for someone to be inserted into a lineup when in the span of a few years, guys like Lidstrom, Stuart, Rafalski, all left and no one was signed to replace them.

As for Brunner, he was hardly a rookie. He was 26 years old who had been playing professional hockey for years in Europe and was signed as a right handed shooter which is another attribute that Babcock is obsessed with. And again, is 5'11 and 184. Not "big" certainly, but obviously bigger than Tatar.

Darren Helm is also 5'11, 192. And he's plays the exact type of hockey that Babcock loves. The mucking, grinding, dump and chase style of hockey.

It goes like this. Are you a grinder? He already likes you. He loves Glendening already. If you're a biggish/big grinder, he loves you the most. Are you a skill guy? You will have to earn every inch you get from him unless you're an all-star like Datsyuk or Zetterberg. Are you a small skill guy? You're going to have to score a hattrick every game or risk the bench.

Even your argument here is assumption based, as there really isn't any fact behind it whatsoever. It's driven by past experiences and past situations involving Babcock's decision making.

Okay, I suppose I'll spell it out for you. There are two kinds of "assumptions." There's the kind that people make that has *no basis for it whatsoever.* And there's the kind I make, that is informed by past experience and Babcock's history and what he says and does.

Now the first is crap. You can make baseless assumptions about anything. "Oh the reason Tatar is not playing is because he doesn't want to. He's going to go into the fashion industry instead. He's just riding out this last year." "He's not playing because he got injured in a car accident." You can literally just make **** up. That's clearly worthless to do.

The latter is more grounded. "Based on what Babcock has said, and what he has done in the past and this season, I think the reason Tatar is not playing is because he is too small for Babcock. I believe this because of the way he uses and talks about certain players on the team."

I think if you want to conflate an assumption based on nothing with an "assumption" based on past experience and evidence, well, I don't know what else to say I guess.

 

[Brandel*]

@Flowah

I never said both assumptions should garner the same value. Obviously the assumptions you just listed are far more likely, as there is more deductive reasoning and support behind them. But, that doesn't mean his is automatically incorrect and that he should be scolded for bringing it up.

 

[Frk It]

The defense is easy to explain. Dekeyser is 6'3 200 pounds. You can call him skinny, and he can surely pack on a few more pounds, but he's not small. Tatar is 5'9 and 176. The difference is obvious, and to say otherwise is willful blindness. Moreover, our defense has been decimated in the past 3 years. We lost a ton of talent with no one to replace them. Of course it's easier for someone to be inserted into a lineup when in the span of a few years, guys like Lidstrom, Stuart, Rafalski, all left and no one was signed to replace them.

As for Brunner, he was hardly a rookie. He was 26 years old who had been playing professional hockey for years in Europe and was signed as a right handed shooter which is another attribute that Babcock is obsessed with. And again, is 5'11 and 184. Not "big" certainly, but obviously bigger than Tatar.

Darren Helm is also 5'11, 192. And he's plays the exact type of hockey that Babcock loves. The mucking, grinding, dump and chase style of hockey.

It goes like this. Are you a grinder? He already likes you. He loves Glendening already. If you're a biggish/big grinder, he loves you the most. Are you a skill guy? You will have to earn every inch you get from him unless you're an all-star like Datsyuk or Zetterberg. Are you a small skill guy? You're going to have to score a hattrick every game or risk the bench.


Okay, I suppose I'll spell it out for you. There are two kinds of "assumptions." There's the kind that people make that has *no basis for it whatsoever.* And there's the kind I make, that is informed by past experience and Babcock's history and what he says and does.

Now the first is crap. You can make baseless assumptions about anything. "Oh the reason Tatar is not playing is because he doesn't want to. He's going to go into the fashion industry instead. He's just riding out this last year." "He's not playing because he got injured in a car accident." You can literally just make **** up. That's clearly worthless to do.

The latter is more grounded. "Based on what Babcock has said, and what he has done in the past and this season, I think the reason Tatar is not playing is because he is too small for Babcock. I believe this because of the way he uses and talks about certain players on the team."

I think if you want to conflate an assumption based on nothing with an "assumption" based on past experience and evidence, well, I don't know what else to say I guess.

I think it has more to do with lunch-pail guys vs skill guys, than small guys vs skill guys.

He clearly prefers "well-rounded" or "coaches players" over talented guys.

-Benching of 6'1" 1st round pick Brendan Smith for undrafted Brian Lashoff.
-6'3" Jakub Kindl getting the shortest leash of any Red Wings player I have ever seen in my life for years and years, before he was finally given a spot and allowed to play.
-2nd round pick goal scorer, and AHL Finals MVP Tomas Tatar off the roster.

It's quite clear the type of players that he favors.

 

[Frk It]

I'm not sure why everyone thinks being mad is synonymous with an attitude problem. Just because he's justifiably upset doesn't mean he cannot have a problem with his attitude as well. Just saying that because his anger is justified, doesn't rule every other potential off-ice issue out.

You make a good point. I would say that I'm sure at some point, you just start to feel defeated.

If I'm Tatar I have to wonder "what's the point of busting my butt in practice every day, when they're just going to keep finding ways not to play me"?

At some point there is a breaking point. Maybe that's dressing 36 year old Samuelsson over you. Maybe it's undrafted Glendening getting called up to play over you, instead of switching around centers to get you a spot. Maybe it's Franzen going 5-6 games without a goal and with terrible effort, and not getting a shot to play in the top 6 for a game.

Maybe it's coming fresh off a Calder Cup win where you were MVP, or coming off a NHL call-up where you were one of the most productive players at ES.

At some point enough is enough, and it's going to affect your attitude and the way you approach the game. You can try to act like it doesn't, but it does. These guys are human beings. Not robots with hockey sticks. The way the Red Wings have treated Tatar has shown absolutely no regard for fairness, or rewards for doing things well.

 

[Brandel*]

Just curious, has Tatar made comments to any media lately, like any at all since his last start? Just wondering because I would definitely expect him to be getting very frustrated at this point with Sammy being put in after only playing 1/8.

 

[Roy S]

Hudler was small and slow but very skilled and he almost always had a place in the lineup-although it was usually in a bottom 6 role to shield him from defensive responsibility until his last season with the team. Tamar's height and weight are not solely keeping him out of the lineup- that is way too simplistic. Babcock must not think much of his play without the puck, his ability to win board battles, be strong on the puck, go to the inside or hard areas of the ice, back check and cover well in man-to-man coverage, pass well both coming out of the zone and in the neutral zone, etc compared to other options he has available to him. It also could be a teaching lesson/used as a way to motivate him.

That's not to say he shouldn't be playing, but I think the assumptions that Babcock is some simpleton who just prefers size and dump and chase hockey is not giving enough credit to one of, if not the best, coach in the NHL.

 

[Chip39]

Because if there is anything professional sports teams care about it's fairness.

 

[Flowah]

@Flowah

I never said both assumptions should garner the same value. Obviously the assumptions you just listed are far more likely, as there is more deductive reasoning and support behind them. But, that doesn't mean his is automatically incorrect and that he should be scolded for bringing it up.

Claims without any evidence can be dismissed out of hand. That's how it works. You can't go around claiming that everything in the universe works by undetectable pink unicorns and expect people to take you seriously. If you make an assertion, support it with something or don't expect anyone to take you seriously.

And I hardly scolded him. "I don't make assumptions about bad character when there's 0 evidence for it." That's one hell of a tongue lashing I tell you what.

Babcock must not think much of his play without the puck, his ability to win board battles, be strong on the puck, go to the inside or hard areas of the ice, back check and cover well in man-to-man coverage, pass well both coming out of the zone and in the neutral zone, etc compared to other options he has available to him.

Do you watch him?

I don't just take Babcock's word for it. I watch all the games too, and plenty of people here agree, if that is your assessment of Tatar, it is wrong. Hell, even just looking at where he scores his goals, they are all in the hard areas. He goes right to the front of the net to get his shots in.

It also could be a teaching lesson/used as a way to motivate him.

rofl. What's the lesson? "I don't care how well you play or how badly other people play, you go in when I feel like it, not when you earn it." That's the same lesson Nyquist is getting! "You're ready, no one denies. We want you to play, no one denies. But you're going to be down here in the AHL because I done ****ed up the roster. Hehehehehe."

 

[Fine young man]

Samuelsson getting the go tonight was predictable, who else are we going to put on the point on the 2nd PP unit? Quincey? It's probably gonna be:

Kindl - Alfie
Smith - Sammy

I don't think Babcock really has a problem with Nyquist either, he's just in the minors because of cap issues (Holland wants to hoard all the forwards). Babcock kept Nyquist in the lineup last year in the playoffs over Sammy and Bert and gave him some top6-time.

Babcock just loves Cleary and until someone gets injured or the Wings start losing, Tatar's probably not going to get much playtime.

 

[Frk It]

but I think the assumptions that Babcock is some simpleton who just prefers size and dump and chase hockey is not giving enough credit to one of, if not the best, coach in the NHL.

Typically, I would agree with this.

But if you look at every single time Babcock has been quoted in the media this year. All indications are in fact that he is a simpleton who prefers size and dump and chase hockey.

His message has been very, very clear. "Heavy on the puck". "Win battles". blah blah blah. It's every single post game conference. It's before every game. You can't get past it.

Also all of his roster moves reflect this thought process as well.

So it's kind of hard to discredit that.

 

[Brandel*]

Claims without any evidence can be dismissed out of hand. That's how it works. You can't go around claiming that everything in the universe works by undetectable pink unicorns and expect people to take you seriously. If you make an assertion, support it with something or don't expect anyone to take you seriously.

This is a hockey discussion forum, not a professional debating league. Similarly to when people have everyday conversations, people can say things without any evidence at all in hopes of sparking further discussion on the topic and then potentially others can provide support towards what the person initially commented.

And I hardly scolded him. "I don't make assumptions about bad character when there's 0 evidence for it." That's one hell of a tongue lashing I tell you what.

I never said you verbally abused him

You attempted to silence him and any discussion on that topic immediately. Maybe scold wasn't the best word to describe it, trivial stuff.

 

[jfrank21]

You kind of have to wonder, what if it's a contract thing? If tats isn't playing, he isn't scoring. If he isn't scoring he can't ask for the moon. Maybe they want to lock him up for the next few years at a low rate compared to 3 mil or more if he's putting up .5 ppg or better on the 2nd or 3rd line with 2nd pp duty. Food for thought. I'd tell them F off at this point but then again I've been pulling for him for a couple of years now.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

You kind of have to wonder, what if it's a contract thing? If tats isn't playing, he isn't scoring. If he isn't scoring he can't ask for the moon. Maybe they want to lock him up for the next few years at a low rate compared to 3 mil or more if he's putting up .5 ppg or better on the 2nd or 3rd line with 2nd pp duty. Food for thought. I'd tell them F off at this point but then again I've been pulling for him for a couple of years now.

Simply put, no.

 

[Roy S]

rofl. What's the lesson? "I don't care how well you play or how badly other people play, you go in when I feel like it, not when you earn it." That's the same lesson Nyquist is getting! "You're ready, no one denies. We want you to play, no one denies. But you're going to be down here in the AHL because I done ****ed up the roster. Hehehehehe."

I'm not aware of what Babcock or any of the coaches tell him he needs to work on to improve in order to play- that's what the lesson would be. Nobody on the board is aware of what goes on behind the scenes. Nyquist being in the AHL is entirely because of the roster issue until guys like Tootoo and Eaves can all be waived and I'd guess he is well aware of that and may know that he'll be back on the team as soon as that's fixed. But, Tatar is on the roster and its been a 3 way battle between him and Tootoo and Sammy for the 12th spot and he's lost out on it quite a bit. That's partly on Babcock for not getting through to Tatar to get his skill in the lineup, but Tatar is also somewhat at blame for not doing what he needs to in order to get in the lineup. Placing 100% blame on the coach or organization and none on the player and just playing the victim card for the player is entirely unrealistic.

 

[Roy S]

Typically, I would agree with this.

But if you look at every single time Babcock has been quoted in the media this year. All indications are in fact that he is a simpleton who prefers size and dump and chase hockey.

His message has been very, very clear. "Heavy on the puck". "Win battles". blah blah blah. It's every single post game conference. It's before every game. You can't get past it.

Also all of his roster moves reflect this thought process as well.

So it's kind of hard to discredit that.

Since when does being heavy on the puck and winning battles= size and dump and chase hockey? Z and D play "heavy" and win board battles and they aren't big and don't play dump and chase hockey. Being "heavy" and winning board battles just helps us keep the puck and get the puck back so we can maintain puck possession. I don't think the quotes in the media are being interpreted correctly.

 

[golffuul]

Honestly...I think Tootoo and Samuelsson are simply in "show" mode, to try and attract interest for a possible trade. That's why it seems so inconsistent as to who plays and when.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Samuelsson getting the go tonight was predictable, who else are we going to put on the point on the 2nd PP unit? Quincey? It's probably gonna be:

Kindl - Alfie
Smith - Sammy

I don't think Babcock really has a problem with Nyquist either, he's just in the minors because of cap issues (Holland wants to hoard all the forwards). Babcock kept Nyquist in the lineup last year in the playoffs over Sammy and Bert and gave him some top6-time.

Babcock just loves Cleary and until someone gets injured or the Wings start losing, Tatar's probably not going to get much playtime.

I seriously doubt he is going to put Smith in a position to be most successful. You are going to get Quincey or DeKeyser there, why because it is Babcock.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Honestly...I think Tootoo and Samuelsson are simply in "show" mode, to try and attract interest for a possible trade. That's why it seems so inconsistent as to who plays and when.

Would not surprise me if they have agreed in principle to trading Tootoo and that is why he isn't dressing.

 

[Flowah]

This is a hockey discussion forum, not a professional debating league. Similarly to when people have everyday conversations, people can say things without any evidence at all in hopes of sparking further discussion on the topic and then potentially others can provide support towards what the person initially commented.

No.

That's lazy. This isn't a "professional debating league." So feel free to say whatever you want. Just don't expect anyone to take you seriously unless you have at least a modicum of support for it.

You attempted to silence him and any discussion on that topic immediately. Maybe scold wasn't the best word to describe it, trivial stuff.[

Again, didn't do that either. I just said he had no evidence for his assertion. It's amazing how upset people get when they get called out for that. You should see what happens to people who get asked to provide a source for "Datsyuk specifically asked to play with Abdelkader."

Tatar is also somewhat at blame for not doing what he needs to in order to get in the lineup.

What he needs to do is invent magic and grow 5 inches.

Placing 100% blame on the coach or organization and none on the player and just playing the victim card for the player is entirely unrealistic.

No. Not here.

Just as I can lay 100% of the blame on the Nyquist situation at management's feet, I believe I can do the same for Tatar. I watched all the games he played up last year. And I watched the AHL playoffs. The eye test and the statistics agree that he is productive, responsible, and tough. Moreover, if we take Babcock's own words of "tie goes to the veteran" we can take that to mean that Tatar was at least as good as some of the veterans. But hey, tie goes to the vet.

I think Babcock is simply wrong on both counts. I think a tie going to the veteran is garbage. I am confident in my own ability to see hockey to identify when a player is or is not good, or when a player is or is not better than another player.

And to just head off anyone coming in and saying "derp derp maybe you should be a pro coach then." We all do that. Whenever we say X player is better than Y player. Or whenever we say someone made a bad play or should have done this instead of that, you're doing exactly what I'm doing. Just for good measure, it's also a fallacious appeal to authority.

You kind of have to wonder, what if it's a contract thing? If tats isn't playing, he isn't scoring. If he isn't scoring he can't ask for the moon. Maybe they want to lock him up for the next few years at a low rate compared to 3 mil or more if he's putting up .5 ppg or better on the 2nd or 3rd line with 2nd pp duty. Food for thought. I'd tell them F off at this point but then again I've been pulling for him for a couple of years now.

And if you can come up with that idea, then so can Tatar and his agent. And guess who he won't want to be dealing with when his contract is up. That would be a terribly short-sighted move.

 

[golffuul]

Would not surprise me if they have agreed in principle to trading Tootoo and that is why he isn't dressing.

They could have traded him to Phoenix and didn't want him playing against them, tonight. Who knows.

 

[Frk It]

Since when does being heavy on the puck and winning battles= size and dump and chase hockey? Z and D play "heavy" and win board battles and they aren't big and don't play dump and chase hockey. Being "heavy" and winning board battles just helps us keep the puck and get the puck back so we can maintain puck possession. I don't think the quotes in the media are being interpreted correctly.

That was 1 quote. Go through and look at what he has said so far this year. All indications point one way.

If this isn't good enough evidence for you LOOK AT THE ROSTER. Specifically the bottom 6. Since actions are more important than the words Ken and Mike say anyways.

3th and 4th line. No scoring line. That's not Red Wings hockey. That's crap Anaheim Ducks hockey.

 

[SimplySolace]

Honestly...I think Tootoo and Samuelsson are simply in "show" mode, to try and attract interest for a possible trade. That's why it seems so inconsistent as to who plays and when.

Per Babcock: "Sammy is going in, Toots is coming out. Not because Toots did anything wrong, without Kronner on the PP we want to put Sammy in to have a PP guy." (Source)

As much as we all would LOVE a trade to happen, doesn't mean every little detail is a trade brewing.