GDT: Game 2: Wild @ Avs - 8 PM CT / 4 AM Finland - FS-N

[P10p]

I dont think Aceofspades actually understands how to translate raw stats into actual analytics. The numbers are only one part of it. You also need to be able to put the numbers into context. It helps explain why a advanced stat is what it is. His problem is he is looking at corsi without even watching what happened on the ice.

Guys like you are why people hate advanced stats. You've got half a picture and then you come in here and relentlessly defend it.

 

[Aceofspades]

Here's a perfect example of the point that I'm trying to make.

In the 3rd period Greenway wins a puck battle, cycles up the LW boards in the offensive zone.Hands the puck off to Suter skating towards the goalline. Suter throws the puck back to Greenway in the faceoff circle. Greenway gets a shot on net and the rebound falls at the feet of Kunin who is fighting for position with a Avs defenseman. Kunin swings at the puck while falling down and the puck is cleared.

On the analytical side of things, this is a HDSC for Kunin. Pretty much the best thing a player can do short of actually scoring a goal.

On the watch the game side of things, this a failure for Kunin. I'm not going to really hold it agaisnt the kid for losing a puck battle, but it certainly isn't something that he should be getting any credit for either.

Yes he should, for being in the right place trying to do the right thing.
If he is in the right place doing the right thing more often than not that offensive potential will translate to results.

 

[2Pair]

Yes he should, for being in the right place trying to do the right thing.
If he is in the right place doing the right thing more often than not that offensive potential will translate to results.

Keep digging, you'll get yourself out eventually

 

[Bazeek]

Here might be an issue, actual scoring chance might mean very different things to different people.
Your general impression, did you see offensive potential, with better passing, speed, timing, rythm, flow?
Or did you see it as a wholly barren desert?

Jesus, it's a good thing I did my drinking on Friday night, I guess.

My recollection of that line last night was that it spent most of it's time in the offensive zone stuck along the boards and that they didn't generate much from the middle of the ice or even up around the net where you'd expect those three to be good. I don't recall many shifts of sustained pressure, though I think there were a few decent ones early in the 3rd. Maybe it was the 2nd?

There wasn't a lot of "flow" or "rhythm" though. Parise's complaints about a lack of chemistry weren't exactly unfounded, because they didn't seem to connect on much.

 

[Aceofspades]

I dont think Aceofspades actually understands how to translate raw stats into actual analytics. The numbers are only one part of it. You also need to be able to put the numbers into context. It helps explain why a advanced stat is what it is. His problem is he is looking at corsi without even watching what happened on the ice.

Guys like you are why people hate advanced stats. You've got half a picture and then you come in here and relentlessly defend it.

Do tell how to put the numbers into context and actual analytics, describe the process, so we can all converge what we see on ice and stats.

 

[TaLoN]

Corsi was big when it was new and analytics were new. Corsi has become an antiquated advanced stat as newer and better analytic stats have come around.

Cosi is so easy to miss read due to context it's crazy.

 

[2Pair]

Do tell how to put the numbers into context and actual analytics, describe the process, so we can all converge what we see on ice and stats.

It's a lot easier to do if you actually watch the games

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Do tell how to put the numbers into context and actual analytics, describe the process, so we can all converge what we see on ice and stats.

I watch the game. I take a look at the stats to see if they confirm or differ from what I think I saw. If they confirm, then I feel pretty good about being "right" in what I saw. If they differ, then I go back and re-think about why they might differ, what might cause those differences, and what I should maybe look for in future games.

For example, my eyes told me that Parise, Staal and Zuccarello have been pretty bad, and the stats back that up pretty concretely. I feel pretty good that neither of them are lying to me.

 

[Aceofspades]

Keep digging, you'll get yourself out eventually

When has there a been a time in hockey that a forward battling in front of the net for the puck has not gotten credit?

 

[Aceofspades]

Jesus, it's a good thing I did my drinking on Friday night, I guess.

My recollection of that line last night was that it spent most of it's time in the offensive zone stuck along the boards and that they didn't generate much from the middle of the ice or even up around the net where you'd expect those three to be good. I don't recall many shifts of sustained pressure, though I think there were a few decent ones early in the 3rd. Maybe it was the 2nd?

There wasn't a lot of "flow" or "rhythm" though. Parise's complaints about a lack of chemistry weren't exactly unfounded, because they didn't seem to connect on much.

Thanks for a useful answer without snarling.

 

[2Pair]

When has there a been a time in hockey that a forward battling in front of the net for the puck has not gotten credit?

This is the NHL. You don't get credit for trying but failing. Like I said, I'm not going to hold it against anyone for losing a battle, but I'm also not going to give them credit for doing it either.

 

[Aceofspades]

This is the NHL. You don't get credit for trying but failing. Like I said, I'm not going to hold it against anyone for losing a battle, but I'm also not going to give them credit for doing it either.

I see the logic in that and will correct my ways, not.

 

[Bazeek]

Here's a perfect example of the point that I'm trying to make.

In the 3rd period Greenway wins a puck battle, cycles up the LW boards in the offensive zone.Hands the puck off to Suter skating towards the goalline. Suter throws the puck back to Greenway in the faceoff circle. Greenway gets a shot on net and the rebound falls at the feet of Kunin who is fighting for position with a Avs defenseman. Kunin swings at the puck while falling down and the puck is cleared.

On the analytical side of things, this is a HDSC for Kunin. Pretty much the best thing a player can do short of actually scoring a goal.

On the watch the game side of things, this a failure for Kunin. I'm not going to really hold it agaisnt the kid for losing a puck battle, but it certainly isn't something that he should be getting any credit for either.

Yeah, I feel like this has turned into some kind of referendum on Kunin, which I don't think was anyone's point. My actual gripe is that our centers, as a group, haven't been good and that Koivu's the only one that's really looked reliable. Ek's been alright relative to expectations, but that's not really high praise.

I don't really hold it against Kunin for not knocking this out of the park in 2 games, but I have a hard time accepting that he's been secretly good.

 

[Digitalbooya]

Here's a perfect example of the point that I'm trying to make.

In the 3rd period Greenway wins a puck battle, cycles up the LW boards in the offensive zone.Hands the puck off to Suter skating towards the goalline. Suter throws the puck back to Greenway in the faceoff circle. Greenway gets a shot on net and the rebound falls at the feet of Kunin who is fighting for position with a Avs defenseman. Kunin swings at the puck while falling down and the puck is cleared.

On the analytical side of things, this is a HDSC for Kunin. Pretty much the best thing a player can do short of actually scoring a goal.

On the watch the game side of things, this a failure for Kunin. I'm not going to really hold it agaisnt the kid for losing a puck battle, but it certainly isn't something that he should be getting any credit for either.

This play starts at 6:45 of the above video. Kunin literally gets a prime time shot off! Where exactly did he lose the puck battle? Why shouldn't this be counted as a HDSC? He put himself in a position to get the rebound (Parise-esque) and just couldn't lift it over the pad or between the legs of the goalie as the puck was bouncing.

Is losing a puck battle just not scoring a goal in that situation? Or are you defining statistics using your own terms now?

 

[Aceofspades]

This play starts at 6:45 of the above video. Kunin literally gets a prime time shot off! Where exactly did he lose the puck battle? Why shouldn't this be counted as a HDSC? He put himself in a position to get the rebound (Parise-esque) and just couldn't lift it over the pad or between the legs of the goalie as the puck was bouncing.

Is losing a puck battle just not scoring a goal in that situation? Or are you defining statistics using your own terms now?

Kunin is looking very strong against that defender, stick is on the ice the whole time, open and free for a pass and gets two shots at the goal after it comes.

(mod)

 

[2Pair]

This play starts at 6:45 of the above video. Kunin literally gets a prime time shot off! Where exactly did he lose the puck battle? Why shouldn't this be counted as a HDSC? He put himself in a position to get the rebound (Parise-esque) and just couldn't lift it over the pad or between the legs of the goalie as the puck was bouncing.

Is losing a puck battle just not scoring a goal in that situation? Or are you defining statistics using your own terms now?

1. I already said that it was a HDSC
2. He swings and misses twice and barely touches it onto the pad of Grubauer
3. Kunin really did nothing to create this chance and did absolutely nothing to finish it


edit- as a bonus, if you let the video run you can see Kunin take a terrible penalty shortly after this play

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Kunin is looking very strong against that defender, stick is on the ice the whole time, open and free for a pass and gets two shots at the goal after it comes.

Considering putting 2Pair on ignore for pure trolling.

The communication may be terse, but it's not trolling to say that watching the game should be a part of analyzing the game.

 

[Digitalbooya]

1. I already said that it was a HDSC
2. He swings and misses twice and barely touches it onto the pad of Grubauer
3. Kunin really did nothing to create this chance and did absolutely nothing to finish it

1. You said he shouldn't get credit for it even though he got a shot off from literally in the blue paint.
2. Sometimes all you need is a light touch to score a goal.
3. This is where you are 100% wrong. You think him positioning himself in front of the net and then WINNING the puck battle against the defender is doing nothing to create the chance. Greenway wasn't trying to pass the puck to Kunin. He was shooting. He didn't create the opportunity for Kunin. The chance was created because Kunin put himself in position to get the rebound off the pads.

 

[Aceofspades]

The communication may be terse, but it's not trolling to say that watching the game should be a part of analyzing the game.

The one play he previously described has now been watched and we still disagree on it.

 

[2Pair]

1. You said he shouldn't get credit for it even though he got a shot off from literally in the blue paint.
2. Sometimes all you need is a light touch to score a goal.
3. This is where you are 100% wrong. You think him positioning himself in front of the net and then WINNING the puck battle against the defender is doing nothing to create the chance. Greenway wasn't trying to pass the puck to Kunin. He was shooting. He didn't create the opportunity for Kunin. The chance was created because Kunin put himself in position to get the rebound off the pads.

I don't know what else to tell you if you think that Kunin won that battle. He had the puck at his feet and 3 feet from an empty net and missed it twice.

 

[Digitalbooya]

The communication may be terse, but it's not trolling to say that watching the game should be a part of analyzing the game.

He can't even describe the one useful play he brought up correctly.

 

[Aceofspades]

1. You said he shouldn't get credit for it even though he got a shot off from literally in the blue paint.
2. Sometimes all you need is a light touch to score a goal.
3. This is where you are 100% wrong. You think him positioning himself in front of the net and then WINNING the puck battle against the defender is doing nothing to create the chance. Greenway wasn't trying to pass the puck to Kunin. He was shooting. He didn't create the opportunity for Kunin. The chance was created because Kunin put himself in position to get the rebound off the pads.

I would not bother, this is so basic stuff that this must be some frustrated person just pulling our leg.

 

[Digitalbooya]

I don't know what else to tell you if you think that Kunin won that battle. He had the puck at his feet and 3 feet from an empty net and missed it twice.

Still can't describe it correctly.

 

[Aceofspades]

I don't know what else to tell you if you think that Kunin won that battle. He had the puck at his feet and 3 feet from an empty net and missed it twice.

He did not loose a battle, he won the battle and got two shots of, (mod)

 

[Digitalbooya]

He did not loose a battle, he won the battle and got two shots of, (mod)

I only saw one shot, but the overall point still stands.