GDT: Game 2: Wild @ Avs - 8 PM CT / 4 AM Finland - FS-N

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Bazeek

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He did not loose a battle, he won the battle and got two shots of, (mod)
I'm seeing about three swings and one shot right into the pad.

I get that Kunin is doing good things in that play (and it looks like one of the shifts I was thinking about earlier), but it's hard for me to square what actually happened (a battle in front that resulted in a "shot" stuffed into a pad) with what the stat says (a premium scoring chance). In terms of where the play took place, yeah, that's a great scoring area. In terms of what Kunin managed to do with the puck once he got it? Not that great.

This goes back to the question of how useful advanced stats are on a game-to-game basis though. That play, repeated many times over the course of a season by a player with Kunin's history in college and the AHL, is probably going to result in goals. But when you ram that specific play onto the Procrustean bed of a HDSC, it gives it more weight than it deserves in evaluating Kunin's game last night. Or at least that's what I'm seeing.
 
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Aceofspades

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I'm seeing about three swings and one shot right into the pad.

I get that Kunin is doing good things in that play (and it looks like one of the shifts I was thinking about earlier), but it's hard for me to square what actually happened (a battle in front that resulted in a "shot" stuffed into a pad) with what the stat says (a premium scoring chance). In terms of where the play took place, yeah, that's a great scoring area. In terms of what Kunin managed to do with the puck once he got it? Not that great.

This goes back to the question of how useful advanced stats are on a game-to-game basis though. That play, repeated many times over the course of a season by a player with Kunin's history in college and the AHL, is probably going to result in goals. But when you ram that specific play onto the Procrustean bed of a HDSC, it gives it more weight than it deserves in evaluating Kunin's game last night. Or at least that's what I'm seeing.


I am very impressed that he is looking strong as a bull against Zadorov, who is a 6'5 / 229 lbs crease-clearer, keeping himself open to play.
So I think he very much created that offensive opportunity, I see huge potential, others see failure.
 

Digitalbooya

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That drawing conclusions from only looking at numbers isn't very reliable. That it's better for the overall analysis to put those numbers into context by combining them with what you see.
Sure, but taking someone's word for something doesn't mean they are right and the statistics are wrong just because they watched the game. 2Pair literally can't describe the play that actually happened and he supposedly watched the game and has seen the advanced statistics AND we have the replay of it!

I've seen 1 and 1/3 of the 2 games played. I haven't got the impression that any of the centers have been playing well and it wouldn't and doesn't shock me that Kunin has the best advanced stats of the bunch based on what I have seen. Staal has been garbage. Koivu is a third defenseman type center and it doesn't shock me that his advanced stats don't jump off the page.
 
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Dr Jan Itor

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Sure, but taking someone's word for something doesn't mean they are right and the statistics are wrong just because they watched the game. 2Pair literally can't describe the play that actually happened and he supposedly watched the game and has seen the advanced statistics AND we have the replay of it!

I've seen 1 and 1/3 of the 2 games played. I haven't got the impression that any of the centers have been playing well and it wouldn't and doesn't shock me that Kunin has the best advanced stats of the bunch based on what I have seen. Staal has been garbage. Koivu is a third defenseman type center and it doesn't shock me that his advanced stats don't jump off the page.

I think Koivu's advanced stats are jumping off the page considering he's lining up against Johansson/Duchene and MacKinnon, whenever Boudreau is able to do it. I have Kunin pretty firmly in 2nd place (which, by the way, is an increase from where he was before after looking at the advanced stuff), Eriksson Ek in 3rd and Staal 4th.
 
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Dr Jan Itor

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Well it seems even combining them does not bring agreement.

Welcome to a subjective world.

I disagree with 2pair in that I don't believe Kunin "did nothing" to generate that HDSC. I disagree with the other side that somehow that play is evidence that he's been the best center on the team through 2 games.
 
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Bazeek

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I am very impressed that he is looking strong as a bull against Zadorov, who is a 6'5 / 229 lbs crease-clearer, keeping himself open to play.
So I think he very much created that offensive opportunity, I see huge potential, others see failure.
Like I said, he's doing good things and I don't think 2Pair's point was to rake him over the coals for not converting there. It's just an example of how the stats tend to distort things when looking at a single game.

As another way of looking at it, my understanding of HDSC is that rebounds are always more valuable than non-rebounds. As such, Kunin's shot qualifies as "high-danger" while Greenway's shot (probably) doesn't. So the stats imply that Kunin was contributing more offensively on this play, but I think most observers would say it was Greenway. The shot-based stats just aren't very good at encapsulating how a single player did in a single game (or two games, since I think that's what the table posted earlier is showing).
 
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2Pair

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Like I said, he's doing good things and I don't think 2Pair's point was to rake him over the coals for not converting there. It's just an example of how the stats tend to distort things when looking at a single game.

As another way of looking at it, my understanding of HDSC is that rebounds are always more valuable than non-rebounds. As such, Kunin's shot qualifies as "high-danger" while Greenway's shot (probably) doesn't. So the stats imply that Kunin was contributing more offensively on this play, but I think most observers would say it was Greenway. The shot-based stats just aren't very good at encapsulating how a single player did in a single game (or two games, since I think that's what the table posted earlier is showing).
I would like to point out that this entire conversation was started by aceofspades claiming that Kunin has been the best center on the team and then followed that with saying that he has arguably been the best PLAYER on the team. This didn't start out as or was never intended to be a "shit all over Kunin's game" argument.
 

Aceofspades

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I would like to point out that this entire conversation was started by aceofspades claiming that Kunin has been the best center on the team and then followed that with saying that he has arguably been the best PLAYER on the team. This didn't start out as or was never intended to be a "**** all over Kunin's game" argument.

I still stand by that claim, considering the team has been pretty mediocre that is not a huge merit yet.
 

Aceofspades

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Welcome to a subjective world.

I disagree with 2pair in that I don't believe Kunin "did nothing" to generate that HDSC. I disagree with the other side that somehow that play is evidence that he's been the best center on the team through 2 games.

One play does not prove anything either way but Kunin was good on that particular play.
Wild will need to do a lot of goals from plays like that to have any chance at the playoffs.
 

Bazeek

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Amusingly, if you just go by Corsi you know who our best player was at even strength last night?

You guessed it: Joel Eriksson-Ek.
 

Aceofspades

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You'll be standing alone. Luckily for you though, there's no rules against being wrong.

download.php
 

Aceofspades

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There is a lot of effort being spent on arguing which one of the Wild's centers is better. The reality is they have all been playing like average 3Cs on good hockey teams.

This was my second point but it was lost under the first point.
 

Mookie Blaylock

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I find it entreating to read other fans thoughts on the Wild and I'll chime in if I think I have anything to contribute. However with such a low number of posters, relative to other subs, I don't understand why certain posters in this sub are so condescending.
 

Webster

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There is a lot of effort being spent on arguing which one of the Wild's centers is better. The reality is they have all been playing like average 3Cs on good hockey teams.

They're not elite players, but I'd say Koivu has played better than expected, and certainly better than Kunin.
 

Digitalbooya

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I still stand by that claim, considering the team has been pretty mediocre that is not a huge merit yet.
Kunin is 100% not the best player on the team. His stats might say he is the best forward, but I don't expect that to continue. The best player on the team is a toss up between Suter and Dumba. It's not even particularly close after those two because of the lack of elite forwards.
 
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Aceofspades

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Kunin is 100% not the best player on the team. His stats might say he is the best forward, but I don't expect that to continue. The best player on the team is a toss up between Suter and Dumba. It's not even particularly close after those two because of the lack of elite forwards.

Well it is an subjective opinion as has been established by now, my favourite defender is Spurgeon.


Coach Bruce Boudreau expects Kunin to take a significant step in terms of his production this season. They worked him in on the power play during Friday’s practice and Boudreau says Kunin has been “one of the best players if not the best player in camp so far.”

Playing with diabetes, Luke Kunin has kept on skating all...
 
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