Pre-Game Talk: Game 2: Pens vs. Sens (Friday)

[WVP]

I'll just say this, because I agree with both sides of the argument.

I wish the Iggy trade hadn't happened. Revisionist history of course, considering I had an epic meltdown when it looked like Boston got him, but I wish it hadn't happened. I also wish the Morrow trade hadn't happened.

The team got older and slower, and I feel that some guys who SHOULD be playing now aren't.

There, I said it.

It's going to depend what Joe Morrow does, and also what Brendan does in the next few weeks. But that one stings a bit when BM is having one of his quicksand games. Other nights he looks fine though...

Iginla trade I am fine with. We did not give up critical pieces and we kept him off of Boston. He's been great for the PP....

 

[Shockmaster]

I'll just say this, because I agree with both sides of the argument.

I wish the Iggy trade hadn't happened. Revisionist history of course, considering I had an epic meltdown when it looked like Boston got him, but I wish it hadn't happened. I also wish the Morrow trade hadn't happened.

The team got older and slower, and I feel that some guys who SHOULD be playing now aren't.

There, I said it.

Against the Islanders, yes, guys like Morrow and Murray were not very effective (although Nabokov made Murray look like a sniper at times ). The good news in that regard is the Penguins will not face a team faster than the Islanders in these playoffs. I could see those two having a better series against the Sens.

 

[MtlPenFan]

Against the Islanders, yes, guys like Morrow and Murray were not very effective (although Nabokov made Murray look like a sniper at times ). The good news in that regard is the Penguins will not face a team faster than the Islanders in these playoffs. I could see those two having a better series against the Sens.

You know what though? I really, really didn't like the last two regular season games against the Rangers. We lost 6-1, and even though we won the next game in a shootout, we should have lost 6-1 again.

Watching Chicago last night though...my God. I know it's looking way ahead, but if the Isles gave us fits, I can't imagine what the Hawks would do. Detroit simply had no answer, and you can't tell me that team got outcoached.

 

[cheesedanish87]

I don't get the hate for Morrow, Shero didn't bring him here to score goals, Morrow was brought here to make the pens tougher to play against, Morrow is our Chris Neil, you need guys like this in the playoffs.

 

[Richard]

The last three playoff games Morrow has been killing players. Love it. Wish he had a bit more zip in the legs but he is still physical. That being said, he is done after this playoff run.

 

[IcedCapp]

I'll just say this, because I agree with both sides of the argument.

I wish the Iggy trade hadn't happened. Revisionist history of course, considering I had an epic meltdown when it looked like Boston got him, but I wish it hadn't happened. I also wish the Morrow trade hadn't happened.

The team got older and slower, and I feel that some guys who SHOULD be playing now aren't.

There, I said it.

I agree with a lot of this. I never wanted Morrow, though I was proven wrong for a couple of weeks in the regular season. I did want Iggy, but I just always thought it would be Kunitz - Crosby - Iginla. Iginla would play Neal's role on that line and Kunitz would play Kunitz role.

On Geno's line, I wanted Bennett - Malkin - Neal. For the life of me, I cannot understand what the team saw with Bennett - Malkin - Neal that made them think they needed to continue to tinker with it. I thought that line was great, both in production and in "eye test."

I would still like top-6 player (no sarcasm) Pascal Dupuis on the 3rd line. A 3rd line of Cooke - Sutter - Dupuis would have more speed and scoring presence than Morrow - Sutter - Cooke, as well as being better defensively.

The 4th line, if I had my way, would be Morrow - Vitale - Kennedy / Adams / Jokinen. You could rotate based on what you need.

So there's what my lines would be, including everyone they traded for.

Kunitz - Crosby - Iginla
Bennett - Malkin - Neal
Cooke - Sutter - Dupuis
Morrow - Vitale - Kennedy

I think that's the best lineup for the team

 

[Shockmaster]

You know what though? I really, really didn't like the last two regular season games against the Rangers. We lost 6-1, and even though we won the next game in a shootout, we should have lost 6-1 again.

You also have to consider in those games that Bylsma was forcing the Neal-Malkin-Iginla combination, Crosby was out, and the Pens were without their best two puck-moving d-men.

Watching Chicago last night though...my God. I know it's looking way ahead, but if the Isles gave us fits, I can't imagine what the Hawks would do. Detroit simply had no answer, and you can't tell me that team got outcoached.

I'm still a little unsure about Chicago. They haven't exactly been facing offensive powerhouses in Minnesota and Detroit. Also the Blackhawk PP is very sub-par for the talent they have up front. If the Penguins do meet the Blackhawks I could see the Penguins at least winning the special teams battle.

 

[cheesedanish87]

The last three playoff games Morrow has been killing players. Love it. Wish he had a bit more zip in the legs but he is still physical. That being said, he is done after this playoff run.

Exactly, imagine Morrow on Boston taking runs at Sid and Geno all series long, Morrow just isn't a pleasant guy to play against.

 

[cheesedanish87]

This is thinking way to far ahead, but i don't think Chicago gets by LA, and i think Pens would match up good against LA, Kings are much better then Boston and NYR, but there teams are built the same way, Pens play good against those type of teams.

 

[Waffle Fries]

I agree with a lot of this. I never wanted Morrow, though I was proven wrong for a couple of weeks in the regular season. I did want Iggy, but I just always thought it would be Kunitz - Crosby - Iginla. Iginla would play Neal's role on that line and Kunitz would play Kunitz role.

On Geno's line, I wanted Bennett - Malkin - Neal. For the life of me, I cannot understand what the team saw with Bennett - Malkin - Neal that made them think they needed to continue to tinker with it. I thought that line was great, both in production and in "eye test."

I would still like top-6 player (no sarcasm) Pascal Dupuis on the 3rd line. A 3rd line of Cooke - Sutter - Dupuis would have more speed and scoring presence than Morrow - Sutter - Cooke, as well as being better defensively.

The 4th line, if I had my way, would be Morrow - Vitale - Kennedy / Adams / Jokinen. You could rotate based on what you need.

So there's what my lines would be, including everyone they traded for.

Kunitz - Crosby - Iginla
Bennett - Malkin - Neal
Cooke - Sutter - Dupuis
Morrow - Vitale - Kennedy

I think that's the best lineup for the team

Why have we been arguing while we actually agree?

The only change I would make is I want Morrow on the third with Dupuis. I loved them together when the lines were Morrow-Jokinen-Dupuis and Morrow-Dupuis-Bennett. I think Dupuis just brought the absolute best out of him.

 

[regard]

Its too early even for revisionist history. We have no idea what Morrow and Iginlas contributions might be if we go deep. At times thier speed may not be an issue and thier other attributes might be a huge boon. Like if we play Boston.

 

[KIRK]

Okay, I'll lie to myself, but I'll hate myself for it in the morning.

I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. Either way, you have plenty of other stuff to keep yourself busy in the 'hate myself for it in the morning' department.

 

[KIRK]

Yeah to me it's not about Sid's comfort or Geno's, it's really about creating the best lines and putting players in the best position to succeed. Malkin-Neal as a combo with Neal on the right has to be set in stone. Sid-Duper is set in stone as well. I will concede Kunitz to that line if you really want, but taking a career hall of fame right winger and putting him on the left and expecting it to work is stupid. THAT is why we were *****ing that Iginla should be on Crosby's right.

So the other solution is Iggy to the 3rd line. Cool I'm good wit that. So put Bennett, Morrow, Jokinen on Geno's left. Great we are happy.

Quit acting line everyone who doesn't want Iggy or Neal on Malkin's left wing is a Geno apologist that only cares about his production.

I couldn't care if MTLPenFan's proverbial shaved monkey were playing LW with Malkin and Neal. I really do wish Malkin had an ounce of selfishness to say 'I'd feel a little more comfortable with Morrow or Jokinen or Bennett or a shaved monkey with me and lazy than Iginla'. But, he'd never do that. The coach tells him it's best for the team, then he's fine with it.

 

[KIRK]

The Kunitz - Crosby - Dupuis line scored 1 even strength goal in each of the 3 games they were together. They also drew the overtime penalty.

And in the last game before Kunitz - Malkin - Neal was put together (and only game where we saw the exact same lineups with Iggy playing right wing to Neal - Malkin), Neal scored from Iggy and Malkin and Malkin scored from Iggy and Fleury. I believe it was Dupuis that also scored that game from Crosby.

And the +/- stat is kind of useless in this case considering Sid and his line was out there for basically every laugher that Fleury gave up in both game 2 and game 4.

In the end, I don't think either Crosby or Malkin need Kunitz, nor do I think either have been weighed down that heavily by Iginla. I think it's in part a bit of unrealistic expectations combined with confirmation bias when they already have their mind up what the best lines are.

I was with you until the bolded part.

 

[KIRK]

I'll just say this, because I agree with both sides of the argument.

I wish the Iggy trade hadn't happened. Revisionist history of course, considering I had an epic meltdown when it looked like Boston got him, but I wish it hadn't happened. I also wish the Morrow trade hadn't happened.

The team got older and slower, and I feel that some guys who SHOULD be playing now aren't.

There, I said it.

Well, in hindsight, there might have been some other targets that might have made more sense, especially when one considers the assets given.

**** it . . . move Vitale to Malkin's LW. Have Sutter center Cooke and Iginla and Adams center Morrow and Kennedy. The way Vitale is hopping, plus his FO ability . . . maybe you get a Talbot deja vu.

Alas, we have a coach who would rather see the second line die than Iggy be somewhere he doesn't 'belong'. Or, maybe it's just too bad that Bylsma has a guy running the forwards who thinks like this instead of a guy like he had in 2009.

I agree with a lot of this. I never wanted Morrow, though I was proven wrong for a couple of weeks in the regular season. I did want Iggy, but I just always thought it would be Kunitz - Crosby - Iginla. Iginla would play Neal's role on that line and Kunitz would play Kunitz role.

On Geno's line, I wanted Bennett - Malkin - Neal. For the life of me, I cannot understand what the team saw with Bennett - Malkin - Neal that made them think they needed to continue to tinker with it. I thought that line was great, both in production and in "eye test."

I would still like top-6 player (no sarcasm) Pascal Dupuis on the 3rd line. A 3rd line of Cooke - Sutter - Dupuis would have more speed and scoring presence than Morrow - Sutter - Cooke, as well as being better defensively.

The 4th line, if I had my way, would be Morrow - Vitale - Kennedy / Adams / Jokinen. You could rotate based on what you need.

So there's what my lines would be, including everyone they traded for.

Kunitz - Crosby - Iginla
Bennett - Malkin - Neal
Cooke - Sutter - Dupuis
Morrow - Vitale - Kennedy

I think that's the best lineup for the team

Now this part is where I do concur with you. Let's not let our debate over what's a crappier way to use Iginla obfuscate our agreement that Bylsma has been a dumb*** either way.

 

[Waffle Fries]

I don't know if anyone watched the interviews from today (specifically Bylsma and Sid), but it seems like the lines aren't set in stone either direction. I think they will keep changing.

Sid HCDB

Edit: Go to about 3:15 for Dan talking about lines

 

[Shockmaster]

Kunitz definitely is a guy both Crosby and Malkin want, and he plays well with both of them. Since he can't be cloned, you have to go with the combination that is best for the team and not for one of Crosby's or Malkin's ego. Since it's unlikely Dupuis will be moved to the third line and considering the fact that Bennett was very lack-luster after game 1 against the Islanders, 9-87-12 and 14-71-18 are the better options for the top 6 moving forward.

 

[IcedCapp]

One quick point I wanted to make: I really feel like Sids vision is crap right now. He's having trouble along the boards and struggling on the dot. Maybe he just wants two guys who will be where he expects them to be 100% of the time until his vision and awareness is back to 100%.

 

[KIRK]

I don't know if anyone watched the interviews from today (specifically Bylsma and Sid), but it seems like the lines aren't set in stone either direction. I think they will keep changing.

Sid HCDB

Edit: Go to about 3:15 for Dan talking about lines

That sounds like a very polite way of saying what amounts to this: The lines will settle out on a game by game basis depending upon where Iginla doesn't seem like a bigger cluster****.

Hey Disco, here's an idea: **** Iggy's 'rightful place'. Having Sid and Geno going at once is the way to a cup, not paying lineup homage to Iginla.

 

[IcedCapp]

Why have we been arguing while we actually agree?

The only change I would make is I want Morrow on the third with Dupuis. I loved them together when the lines were Morrow-Jokinen-Dupuis and Morrow-Dupuis-Bennett. I think Dupuis just brought the absolute best out of him.

Well, in hindsight, there might have been some other targets that might have made more sense, especially when one considers the assets given.

**** it . . . move Vitale to Malkin's LW. Have Sutter center Cooke and Iginla and Adams center Morrow and Kennedy. The way Vitale is hopping, plus his FO ability . . . maybe you get a Talbot deja vu.

Alas, we have a coach who would rather see the second line die than Iggy be somewhere he doesn't 'belong'. Or, maybe it's just too bad that Bylsma has a guy running the forwards who thinks like this instead of a guy like he had in 2009.



Now this part is where I do concur with you. Let's not let our debate over what's a crappier way to use Iginla obfuscate our agreement that Bylsma has been a dumb*** either way.

I never said Iggy on Geno's line was smart. Ive been with you guys on that for weeks. I'm fighting against he notion that Kunitz on Sids line is selfish or evil or bad for the team. They have to find a way to make BOTH lines work. Then I'll be happy.

 

[PensBandwagonerNo272*]

UGH I could have swore game 2 was tonight. Looked forward to it all day! Oh well.

 

[IcedCapp]

Kunitz - Crosby - Malkin
Bennett - Jokinen - Neal
Cooke - Sutter - Iginla
Morrow - Vitale - Dupuis

Every superstar is happy

 

[Houston Penguin]

Y'all can talk all the stuff you want about the top two lines .... but we are 3-0 since the additions of Vokoun, Vitale, and Kennedy.

The top six will sort itself out .... stop worrying about that ****!

 

[regard]

The conspiracy theories regarding which wingers each center would like to play with have reached levels where I'm having trouble reading anything in here. Clearly Malkins dying alive and Crosbys going blind.

 

[KIRK]

I never said Iggy on Geno's line was smart. Ive been with you guys on that for weeks. I'm fighting against he notion that Kunitz on Sids line is selfish or evil or bad for the team. They have to find a way to make BOTH lines work. Then I'll be happy.

O'k, let me be clear:

I said that DCI+KMN > KCD+NMI, not because KMN>KCD, but because the positive gap between KCD and KMN is less than the falloff from DCI to NMI.

It's a complex mathematical formula, so I understand why you were confused.

Personally, I think KCD + (not Iggy or Adams)MN is better than both options.

AND, personally, I think YOUR suggestion is best off all, if only because I was right there arguing for it with you.