Confirmed with Link: Frk re-claimed by the Wings

[Ezekial]

It's not about that, but you wouldn't understand. Sometimes having any semblance of positivity on this site can result in an overwhelmingly negative response.

 

[lomekian]

Not aimed at anyone in particular - just heard this on a number of different sites, and was reminded of it by the post above.

There seems to be an increasing assumption that the maintenance of the playoff streak is about or at least significantly influenced by revenue generation, and thus the management is consciously obstructing the future for the sake of diminishing returns for the now.

But what's to say that the streak isn't a sporting aim in itself? Criticism seems to be either that the team wasted the last years of Lids/Dats and now Z by not being competitive enough, or that we should have burned things down to semi-tank our way to success. Either way, the conclusion drawn is that the re-build on the fly has either failed already or is destined to fail.

My take is that its too soon to say, because we have only just reached the point where the pendulum is shifting between the 2008 team and the likely core of the 2020 team. What if the ownership and management is right and 2014-16 is actually the DRW equivalent of a tank?

Of course trying to follow this model is harder (especially when KH makes a few dud trades/grabs a couple of FA turkeys/ lets marginal players go for nothing due to bad timing) than the prevailing wind of a ten year tank to contender cylce, but if this team CAN rebuild to a point of being a contender without missing the playoffs it would be a fantastic achievement.

Ok - at present we have a 25 year streak with diminishing returns, that many feel has become an obstruction to progress and thus are ready to dismiss.But what if KH and his successor pull it off? What if we become a contender again and maybe win another cup or two with a 40 year streak? Will aiming for that be worth a few leaner years. I think so, though I appreciate that opinion may not be shared. But I equate it to my Football team, Arsenal...they have underachieved in recent years, but their entire season unbeaten a decade ago will live a lot longer in the memory than league runners up or cup winners in many of the subsequent season. Accordingly, I believe that if the playoff run can get above 30 years, particularly with the introduction of the cap, that will in time be seen as a greater achievement than the odd losing SCF appearance or even an isolated victory...

 

[njx9]

While I think the complaints are fair, I don't think it's entirely on the 'negative' folks. If I complain about Frk being waived and the response is, in essence, "oh noes! waived the best player ever/totally missing the playoffs now/some other sarcastic, eye-rolling response", it's easy to respond directly in kind. There are some very, very real issues with this team, regardless of your opinion of where it is or should be headed, and for as shriekingly high pitched as some of the negative folks can get, the 'everything is perfect and nothing could be better' vibe from the positive folks is just as bad. I say all this with a high degree of self awareness of my own general negativity towards the direction of the team, and of at least a few below the belt shots I'm not proud of taking.

All that said, I appreciate that some folks are really positive about the team, and I appreciate when y'all talk about the good things you see happening. I don't always agree, but at least in disagreeing, I usually have to think a bit harder about why I disagree. It would be a shame if this was solely an echo chamber of sadness/frustration.

 

[Frk It]

I like talking hockey/Red Wings with all of y'all, even if you drive me crazy sometimes.

 

[Yzerman1919*]

Not aimed at anyone in particular - just heard this on a number of different sites, and was reminded of it by the post above.

There seems to be an increasing assumption that the maintenance of the playoff streak is about or at least significantly influenced by revenue generation, and thus the management is consciously obstructing the future for the sake of diminishing returns for the now.

But what's to say that the streak isn't a sporting aim in itself? Criticism seems to be either that the team wasted the last years of Lids/Dats and now Z by not being competitive enough, or that we should have burned things down to semi-tank our way to success. Either way, the conclusion drawn is that the re-build on the fly has either failed already or is destined to fail.

My take is that its too soon to say, because we have only just reached the point where the pendulum is shifting between the 2008 team and the likely core of the 2020 team. What if the ownership and management is right and 2014-16 is actually the DRW equivalent of a tank?

Of course trying to follow this model is harder (especially when KH makes a few dud trades/grabs a couple of FA turkeys/ lets marginal players go for nothing due to bad timing) than the prevailing wind of a ten year tank to contender cylce, but if this team CAN rebuild to a point of being a contender without missing the playoffs it would be a fantastic achievement.

Ok - at present we have a 25 year streak with diminishing returns, that many feel has become an obstruction to progress and thus are ready to dismiss.But what if KH and his successor pull it off? What if we become a contender again and maybe win another cup or two with a 40 year streak? Will aiming for that be worth a few leaner years. I think so, though I appreciate that opinion may not be shared. But I equate it to my Football team, Arsenal...they have underachieved in recent years, but their entire season unbeaten a decade ago will live a lot longer in the memory than league runners up or cup winners in many of the subsequent season. Accordingly, I believe that if the playoff run can get above 30 years, particularly with the introduction of the cap, that will in time be seen as a greater achievement than the odd losing SCF appearance or even an isolated victory...

It sure as heck is! And that is why I will never meet anyone with hostility. So I think all of our pessimistic comments for the NOW are pretty warranted. We have a right to complain, and doing so as a group doesn't make us the laughing stock. It is what it is. We feel cheated that maybe we aren't doing the most we can do to win.

If someone wanted to say Holland isn't dog **** because we have the longest running streak in sports, I won't disagree!!!

 

[RedMenace]

I like talking hockey/Red Wings with all of y'all, even if you drive me crazy sometimes.

It's a very dysfunctional, sometimes abusive, family.

 

[BinCookin]

I like talking hockey/Red Wings with all of y'all, even if you drive me crazy sometimes.

Good post Frk.

Great post by Red Menace.


I am definitely in the "against the grain" camp here.

That is Optomistic.

Here is my Summary of recent roster decisions.

The current lineup is actually constructed for BEST PLAYERS available on our team to be in the lineup.

As much as this may surprise you, I feel the Miller-Glendening-Ott line would outplay a Pulkinnen-Nosek-FRK line any day of the week.

Us using Defensively elite players when our scorers are resting is infact WISE management of the team.

Neilsen is a great player. You guys will see this soon. NYI are upset he left. I watched him at the world cup, and man he is one of the better centers there. We are going to like him a lot guys.

Vanek. He could be a high risk, but its a cheap risk. From what i have watched so far though, he looks better than nyquist and tatar. Who knows how he will fare in the season, But he is a PROVEN scorer. And we just waived some "hopeful" scorers who have no where near the pedigree of Vanek.

Ott. Hes the 4th line muscle a lot of people have been saying this team needs. He is not a goon. He was a 3rd line guy on many teams before now. He has some talent, and like Abby, is willing to fight if need be. His presence on the team is good.

I think our team is strong the way it is constructed now.

And if our top 9 is this:

Tatar-Neilsen-Z
Abby-Larkin-Nyquist
Vanek-Helm-Sheahan

Well as Red Menace said... Those 9 guys are CURRENTLY better than AA and Mantha, who i think could use some more AHL time. AA is most ready. Helm is obviously the most questionable of the top 9. But this year i think AA pushing him for a roster spot should keep the entire third line working hard. Because AA is a hell of a player.

Pulks and FRK have both been passed on the depth chart by Mantha//AA and in a few years Svechnikov.

Jurco will likely have to be traded or waived as well as soon as he is healthy.

If you think "What about the future" "i dont care about this year"

I would kinda say... Ya... If Vanek plays well, we resign him. Or maybe AA played well enough for us to think he is a better option than Vanek. Maybe Mantha has such a big year, it forces us to Trade Helm the next year, and adjust our top 9 again.

AA//Mantha are the big names now.

Yes it would be nice to get assets for these guys we waived... but seems like no one is paying out assets, look at the waivers right now. if PAParenteau couldnt get you a draft pick at 1.25 M, pulks certainly wasnt.

I think we still have a lot of talent in our system.

AA and Mantha and Svechnikov will all push our top 9
Bertuzzi will push anyone from the 4th line out who falters.

Yes we do not have a superstar yet. But our team is still competitive and will need to play solidly on all lines to compete.

I like the way we make our team competitive every year. It is enjoyable and i find it to be BALANCED. As in we lose some young kids, but no one ground breaking.

I think things are going much better than people think they are.

Just because someone is over age 28 does not mean they are garbage.

Now i dont agree with all these LONG TERM contracts we are doing. As in i wish helm was 2 years less, abby was 2 years less. Ericsson, etc etc.

But Hey, i think there are a lot of good things to look forward to.

Also realize Pulks/FRK just saved Sproul and XO. I think thats a good choice. We need to really not give up any more D men. Lets see what all these guys have. I kinda hope Kronwall takes his time in recovery so we can properly utilize all our D men and see what they have.

I predicted we would be 3rd in the division.
Lets see if my optimism is well placed.

 

[Leaf Rocket]

Which was the other player that canes took from you?

 

[Frk It]

Which was the other player that canes took from you?

Nestrasil and Frk.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Which was the other player that canes took from you?

andrej nestrasil, 2 years ago.

 

[Retire91]

I'm not one of those "omg holland u r the suck!!!!!!" posters -- but at what point do we stop bleeding 2nd rounders we've developed for years and get something, anything back for them?

because "omg holland u r the suck!!!!!!"

 

[Mount Suribachi]

FWIW, at this point I think its less about The Streak, and more about not wanting to move into a brand new arena with a non-playoff team that's driving the conservative team building approach.

I do wonder how different it might be if we still playing at the Joe next season.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

FWIW, at this point I think its less about The Streak, and more about not wanting to move into a brand new arena with a non-playoff team that's driving the conservative team building approach.

I do wonder how different it might be if we still playing at the Joe next season.

Agreed. I think the new arena has given more weight to The Streak. I'm guessing management doesn't want to head into the new barn with a team that missed the playoffs for the first time in decades.

 

[InGusWeTrust]

FWIW, at this point I think its less about The Streak, and more about not wanting to move into a brand new arena with a non-playoff team that's driving the conservative team building approach.

I do wonder how different it might be if we still playing at the Joe next season.

A friend of mine said this to me earlier this summer. Holland has a 2 year window. Last year at the Joe and the first year at the new rink. They are "must be in playoffs" years. After these years if the mess isn't fixed/improved to where we arent just barely making it...then Holland is out.

 

[Claypool]

FWIW, at this point I think its less about The Streak, and more about not wanting to move into a brand new arena with a non-playoff team that's driving the conservative team building approach.

I do wonder how different it might be if we still playing at the Joe next season.

There's never been any evidence to suggest the new arena is having an effect on roster decisions. Management has always preferred a mix of youth and veterans. I also don't buy the streak excuse either. If they were so concerned with the streak there would have been significantly more deals involving youth.

 

[Flowah]

It's a very dysfunctional, sometimes abusive, family.

It's arrested development.

 

[PelagicJoe]

Call me crazy, but I doubt Frk will be lighting it up in the NHL.

 

[Syckle78]

There's never been any evidence to suggest the new arena is having an effect on roster decisions. Management has always preferred a mix of youth and veterans. I also don't buy the streak excuse either. If they were so concerned with the streak there would have been significantly more deals involving youth.

Then this roster was constructed purely from Holland's incompetency?

 

[RedMenace]

It's arrested development.

One of my favorite shows, and you're absolutely right.

Here's the thing: I don't hold anything against anybody - until they start getting personal. You want to disagree? Fine. Do it respectfully. You want to debate? Fine, do it respectfully. Start slinging insults - thinly veiled or otherwise - and that's it.

It's really quite simple: Treat others as you want to be treated.

 

[jkutswings]

If they were so concerned with the streak there would have been significantly more deals involving youth.

Aren't we recently removed from packaging Chychrun for even an outside chance at poaching a win-now center from the team that knocked us out of the playoffs for the last two years? I'd say that qualifies as moving youth for the sake of the streak.

 

[Frk It]

Aren't we recently removed from packaging Chychrun for even an outside chance at poaching a win-now center from the team that knocked us out of the playoffs for the last two years? I'd say that qualifies as moving youth for the sake of the streak.

As much as I disliked (and still do dislike) that move, I think you are kind of reaching to draw that conclusion.

 

[BinCookin]

As much as I disliked (and still do dislike) that move, I think you are kind of reaching to draw that conclusion.

Agree with Frk It.

I mean what team really can just "take" Datsyuk's cap hit.
what team can afford their star to retire but you keep his hit.

Basically no one.
Trading that pick I think was calculated, they also got a pretty decent deal out of it. But I expect they would not have done that deal if they thought Chychrun was going to be the next OEL.

 

[Yemack]

One of my favorite shows, and you're absolutely right.

Here's the thing: I don't hold anything against anybody - until they start getting personal. You want to disagree? Fine. Do it respectfully. You want to debate? Fine, do it respectfully. Start slinging insults - thinly veiled or otherwise - and that's it.

It's really quite simple: Treat others as you want to be treated.

Firstly, it's nice to have you back RedMenace.

I agree with what you said. Little bit of respect would make the world a better place for sure. But with due respect, I think you are going little too far in your expectation. People are going to be angry and happy and what not. This is a sports forum at the end. People will be passionate about their team.

I already said how I hate every thread every topic devolves into 'lol KH garbage' since you can't have hockey discussion when hordes of angry army are ready to pounce on you. There is no stuffs to read or get out of when this whole forum is one giant 'bash KH' fest. It is very tiring trying to navigate through and frankly the effort was getting too much for me to enjoy.

However I understand what current situation is and some people are dissatisfied with current state. And there will be frustration spilling over. That's just fact. I think it just comes with territory. If you are here willing to engage, you have expect little bit of that. Although it was getting way out of hand. Hence my outburst which I regret I did at times, it's nice to get some support.

It's funny because I used to be called negative and now called positive, apologist. Reality is I dont have any optimistic or negative view on Red Wings. For me, it's too difficult to predict the future that far. Just like everyone of you I want Wings to win that's the bottom line.

 

[Claypool]

Aren't we recently removed from packaging Chychrun for even an outside chance at poaching a win-now center from the team that knocked us out of the playoffs for the last two years? I'd say that qualifies as moving youth for the sake of the streak.

Players like Stamkos don't come around often. People want Holland to make some bold moves. He gave it a shot. He also got Cholowski and Hronek with the extra pick. Those are two promising players.

 

[The Zermanator]

Good post Frk.

Great post by Red Menace.


I am definitely in the "against the grain" camp here.

That is Optomistic.

Here is my Summary of recent roster decisions.

EDIT: LENGTH

Lets see if my optimism is well placed.

You make many valid points there Bin. My issue is this, barely any mention of the defense. And we both know why, there's no use beating around the bush. Our D is a dumpster fire. And it's a pretty darn important part of a team. That would be like being optimistic about the US armed forces if they suddenly didn't have a navy. I mean sure, the army and air force are top notch, BUT YOU NEED A NAVY. And right now we have two frigates (DK and Green), a broken down destroyer (Kron), a trawler with a hole in the bottom (Ericsson), and a bunch of inflatable rowboats.

Shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic is the most appropriate description of Holland, IMO. Fiddling with the offense when the ship is taking on water fast.

====================================

Well, my comment on the topic of this thread the last couple days is this (not directed at you specifically Bin). I think people are being too sensitive here. We shouldn't be afraid/annoyed/discouraged or whatever at having our views challenged. I'm one of the people opposed to Holland's direction, and have been critical of him for several years now. Not to sound like a hipster or anything, but the general mood of this board towards Holland was much more positive than it is now when I started criticizing him a lot more. So I've been on both ends of it.

So here's how I look at it. When you form an opinion, you should be able to stand behind that opinion and argue for it. If not, then why do you hold that opinion? Echo chambers are rarely conducive to quality discussion, I think it's good that there are a bunch of posters who will passionately argue a variety of viewpoints. So let's agree that we'll often disagree, and GET READY TO RUMBLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLE!!!