Sportsnet: Friedman: "You can see he's unhappy, and you can see he and Dubas have different philosophies"

[Growler]

I think you're just ahead of things here.

Dubas is building a solid developmental system, he did well with the Marlies, and now that he's in full control, he can create those openings for a Trevor Moore or a Justin Holl to be on the main roster.

However, it's very premature to call it the best in the NHL. There needs to be more rewards than Trevor Moore. A guy like Mason Marchment may be added to the list next season. Ferguson, Elyniuk will likely play bigger roles with the Marlies next season, and then who knows from there. Sandin was a fantastic pick, and is looking like a future top 4 guy at minimum. Carcone was seen as a throw away and we got "nothing" for Leivo, but now looks like he could play NHL games, as soon as next season as a call up. Estephan is another guy that may move from the Growlers to the Marlies next season.

So it's in progress, but far from the best in the league right now, but there's a solid chance it gets there.

Thanks for an intelligent response. I don't think that I am ahead of things at all. Rather, I think 99.5% of Leafs fans are unaware of what is going on at the minor league level.

 

[Stamkos4life]

OK. **** you. Obviously we made out posts at the same time. I was willing but I'm not responding to you.

I wasnt trying to be offensive with that post.

I hope that Tampa gives point a 4 year, 11.5 mil contract.

I hope rants gets 4 years at 11 mil

But I do not think it's how things are going to play out.

I'm fairly certain that point will sign for 7-8 years and for less than 9.5.

I doubt rants will make that much more than mack.

Like I said, I appreciate you trying be positive. I just dont think it's going to move in the direction you seem to think it is.

Edit: no need to start swearing

2nd edit: when I said "the crazier among us" I was not referring to you. Apologies if that's what got you fired up

 

[Growler]

I have no idea what the other contracts will settle in at specifically. All I'm saying is that Matthews will not be the outlier whatsoever. His contract is the pin in the hole. The others will fall all around. But the money is flowing from the 28 year old UFA market to the 22 year old ELC/RFA market. It's a 0 sum game. So a guy getting paid out of an ELC 2-3 years ago will get paid significantly less than one coming out this Summer.

A few posters like to talk in absolutes about Dubas getting bent over a barrel, but give it 6 months, and the tone will change. The market changed.

Regarding the minor league stuff, since Dubas took over the Marlies, he started doing things no other AHL club had ever done before. And since he took over GM for the Leafs, it has accelerated all the way down to the ECHL. He is doing stuff (now with Gilman doing his bidding) that has NEVER been done before.

edit: and apology accepted Stamkos4life. thanks

 

[Stamkos4life]

I have no idea what the other contracts will settle in at specifically. All I'm saying is that Matthews will not be the outlier whatsoever. His contract is the pin in the hole. The others will fall all around. But the money is flowing from the 28 year old UFA market to the 22 year old ELC/RFA market. It's a 0 sum game. So a guy getting paid out of an ELC 2-3 years ago will get paid significantly less than one coming out this Summer.

A few posters like to talk in absolutes about Dubas getting bent over a barrel, but give it 6 months, and the tone will change. The market changed.

Regarding the minor league stuff, since Dubas took over the Marlies, he started doing things no other AHL club had ever done before. And since he took over GM for the Leafs, it has accelerated all the way down to the ECHL. He is doing stuff (now with Gilman doing his bidding) that has NEVER been done before.

I have my doubts that the other gms will let themselves get walked all over.

But I hope you are correct because as of right now, austons contract is one of the worst in the league.

I guess we'll have to wait and see regarding our farm system but dont think we should be expecting to get any impact players from the growlers

 

[Growler]

I have my doubts that the other gms will let themselves get walked all over.

But I hope you are correct because as of right now, austons contract is one of the worst in the league.

I guess we'll have to wait and see regarding our farm system but dont think we should be expecting to get any impact players from the growlers

So there you go again. Other GMs will pay what they have to pay depending on their salary cap situation, their job situation, their team situation, the personality of the player, the quality of the players, his role on the team, etc. It's up to the fans to develop the narrative of who got walked over or not, but I'm telling you, the Matthews contract will not be any sort of an outlier whatsoever. History favors the early entrant when it comes to contract negotiations in an changing market.

Please don't tell me what to expect from the Growlers, or what not to expect. I have watched every game. This is all about manufacturing decent players who can fill in bottom roles in the NHL line up over time, on cheap contracts. Why is that important? Because the elite players consume the majority of the salary cap. That is the future of the NHL and God Bless the teams who do not have elite players.

 

[Notsince67]

If we want to shut down the Bergeron/Marchand/Pasta line, the best forward unit at doing it last year by far was Matthews when paired with Nylander line. the best defense pairing at doing it last year by far was Gardiner/Zaitsev.

The best pair in the playoffs was Marner + Marleau + Kadi/Plekanic

 

[Stamkos4life]

So there you go again. Other GMs will pay what they have to pay depending on their salary cap situation, their job situation, their team situation, the personality of the player, the quality of the players, his role on the team, etc. It's up to the fans to develop the narrative of who got walked over or not, but I'm telling you, the Matthews contract will not be any sort of an outlier whatsoever. History favors the early entrant when it comes to contract negotiations in an changing market.

Please don't tell me what to expect from the Growlers, or what not to expect. I have watched every game. This is all about manufacturing decent players who can fill in bottom roles in the NHL line up over time, on cheap contracts. Why is that important? Because the elite players consume the majority of the salary cap. That is the future of the NHL and God Bless the teams who do not have elite players.

Stupid mobile. That shouldve said "I dont think we should expect..." Instead of "(you) dont think we should expect..." if that makes sense.

I have not watched the growlers at all so you definitely have more information regarding that.

Do you have any examples for "History favors the early entrant when it comes to contract negotiations in an changing market."?

I love auston and have been missing that big #1 c since sundin.

But imo we dearly over paid for him considering he has been injured 2 out of the 3 seasons and when you look at what similar level players signed for.

Taken from another poster;

"He's the 2nd highest paid player in the league on a deal that is 80% RFA years. If you assume his UFA year is worth $17M (meaning that if he were to become a UFA in 4 years he could ask and receive a contract for $17M AAV, which seems about right given inflation), Matthews is getting paid $10.4M per year for his RFA years.

If you generously assume McDavid's UFA years are worth the same as Matthews ($17M) , that would imply McDavid's RFA years are worth only $8M. Under that assumption, Matthews' RFA years are being paid at a 30% premium over Connor ****ing McDavid

So realistically, he would need to be better than McDavid by a nontrivial margin. I would say Matthews needs to start putting up at least 55-65g 110-130p seasons while playing a solid 2 way game for this contract to not be a massive over-payment. So that would probably mean 2-3+ Hart trophies, 3-4 Richard trophies, 2-3 Art Ross trophies, and 3-4 Lindsay trophies in the 5 years of his deal. He'd have to be the undisputed best player in the world from 2020-2025."

 

[HamiltonNHL]

But imo we dearly over paid for him considering he has been injured 2 out of the 3 seasons and when you look at what similar level players signed for.

Dubas got roasted.
A five year deal is an embarrassment.

It is plain as day that Dubas needs help with contracts.

If some a55hole 20 goal scorer waited til Dec 1st 4pm to make a deal ... the only deal I'd give is 3 x 5AAV or sit. That would have set a tone for our babied RFAs.

If Kappy or Johnsson leave because Matthew's stole their lunch money, that will be a sad sad day.

 

[56 Years No Cup]

Dubas got roasted.
A five year deal is an embarrassment.

It is plain as day that Dubas needs help with contracts.

If some a55hole 20 goal scorer waited til Dec 1st 4pm to make a deal ... the only deal I'd give is 3 x 5AAV or sit. That would have set a tone for our babied RFAs.

If Kappy or Johnsson leave because Matthew's stole their lunch money, that will be a sad sad day.

Yep. Saying that Dubas "set the market" and somehow thinking this is a good thing is the height of delusion.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Yep. Saying that Dubas "set the market" and somehow thinking this is a good thing is the height of delusion.

Dubas will get Manager of the Year this year.
As voted by the NHLPA and Agents of the NHL.

 

[Peasy]

Dubas got roasted.
A five year deal is an embarrassment.

It is plain as day that Dubas needs help with contracts.

If some a55hole 20 goal scorer waited til Dec 1st 4pm to make a deal ... the only deal I'd give is 3 x 5AAV or sit. That would have set a tone for our babied RFAs.

If Kappy or Johnsson leave because Matthew's stole their lunch money, that will be a sad sad day.

Damn, wish you were our gm.

 

[Stamkos4life]

Dubas got roasted.
A five year deal is an embarrassment.

It is plain as day that Dubas needs help with contracts.

If some a55hole 20 goal scorer waited til Dec 1st 4pm to make a deal ... the only deal I'd give is 3 x 5AAV or sit. That would have set a tone for our babied RFAs.

If Kappy or Johnsson leave because Matthew's stole their lunch money, that will be a sad sad day.

The worst part is that we gave nylander over 10mil this year to make up for missing 2+ months (lol) only to have him perform at a 0.5 ppg rate which most teams get for ~2 mil lolol

This coming from a guy who almost got nylanders name on my jersey last year

 

[Apotheosis]

Please bring in Quennville.

 

[Anthrax442]

Do you want Hainsey moved the Left so that we can play Oz and Holl on different pairing on the right along with Zaitsev?

Which one do you suggest between them will play 1st pairing opposite Rielly?

I not suggest anything beyond pointing out that this is the same coach that was allergic to playing Muzzin and Reilly, because "game too fast for guys to play on theyr offside"

 

[RLF]

That was signed 2 years ago. The market had already begun changing. Now there is a backlog of premier RFAs with their own deals to be signed this Summer. Shorter terms are not going to be a bad thing. See the NBA.

Look at it from another point of view.
McDavid, the higher profile player signed 8 years at 16.67% of the cap at time of signing. Matthews signed for only 5 years at 14.63% of cap at time of signing. In 5 years, Matthews will still want a large piece of cap% to re-sign, maybe higher % than now. Whereas after 5 years of McDavid contract, his cap hit will be worth a much lower % of the higher cap ceiling and that trend will continue for another 3 years before you would have to re-sign him. Which deal would you rather have as a GM or fan? Mathews cap% over 5 years is what it should have been over 8 years when comparing players and contracts.

Dubas has not shown himself to be much of a negotiator so far. imo. He might be trying too hard to show he is a "players" GM a bit of the opposite of how Lou can come across. Ironically, if you exclude the past two games, it is not like the players are showing they appreciate it by playing harder.

 

[Growler]

Dubas got roasted.

If Kappy or Johnsson leave because Matthew's stole their lunch money, that will be a sad sad day.

Matthews stole Kapanen's and Johnsson's lunch money? WTF are you talking about? There is nothing wrong with his AAV. Or Nylander's. Zaitsev and Marleau are the contract problems.

 

[Growler]

Look at it from another point of view.
McDavid, the higher profile player signed 8 years at 16.67% of the cap at time of signing. Matthews signed for only 5 years at 14.63% of cap at time of signing. In 5 years, Matthews will still want a large piece of cap% to re-sign, maybe higher % than now. Whereas after 5 years of McDavid contract, his cap hit will be worth a much lower % of the higher cap ceiling and that trend will continue for another 3 years before you would have to re-sign him. Which deal would you rather have as a GM or fan? Mathews cap% over 5 years is what it should have been over 8 years when comparing players and contracts.

Honestly, I really don't care about the 2024/2025 season. We could be hit be an asteroid by then.

 

[Bomber0104]

Honestly, I really don't care about the 2024/2025 season. We could be hit be an asteroid by then.

Well you'd make a lousy manager in any business if you aren't thinking about the long-term.

Imagine a CEO telling shareholders he/she "doesn't care about 5 years from now because we could be hit by an asteroid".

You'd be fired instantly.

 

[Growler]

Well you'd make a lousy manager in any business if you aren't thinking about the long-term.

Imagine a CEO telling shareholders he/she "doesn't care about 5 years from now because we could be hit by an asteroid".

You'd be fired instantly.

I am a manager and a pretty good one in a 20B company. I manage a budget, a team, performance, and a strategic goal. I don't care about 2024/2025 either.

I've been here for 6 years and I don't think I'm being fired considering my team has exceeded its goals the past 4 years.

 

[Bomber0104]

I am a manager and a pretty good one in a 20B company. I manage a budget, a team, performance, and a strategic goal. I don't care about 2024/2025 either.

Great.

But it sounds like you should keep far away from pro sports (where a long-term outlook is critical) and best of luck with the impending asteroid arrival.

 

[frizzer1]

Imagine a CEO telling shareholders he/she "doesn't care about 5 years from now because we could be hit by an asteroid".

You'd be fired instantly.

Or fried if you were hit by an asteroid.

 

[Bomber0104]

Or fried if you were hit by an asteroid.

No argument from me there

 

[meefer]

Dubas got roasted.
A five year deal is an embarrassment.

It is plain as day that Dubas needs help with contracts.

If some a55hole 20 goal scorer waited til Dec 1st 4pm to make a deal ... the only deal I'd give is 3 x 5AAV or sit. That would have set a tone for our babied RFAs.

If Kappy or Johnsson leave because Matthew's stole their lunch money, that will be a sad sad day.

Meet Brendan Pridham and Lawrence Gilman, two experienced cap guys from all accounts.

 

[Growler]

Great.

But it sounds like you should keep far away from pro sports (where a long-term outlook is critical) and best of luck with the impending asteroid arrival.

I am "away from pro sports." I just told you that. Unless you've been a GM for an NHL team I assume you are also "away from pro sports." So not sure why you should be giving advice around here.

 

[saffronleaf]

Babcock should consider adopting the philosophy of shutting the f*** up and putting up some wins.