Sportsnet: Friedman: "You can see he's unhappy, and you can see he and Dubas have different philosophies"

Status
Not open for further replies.

Cor

I am a bot
Jun 24, 2012
69,648
35,246
AEF
On the 31 thoughts podcast, Friedman talked further about the Dubas/Babcock stuff.

Said for personal reasons, he finds it hard to criticize Babcock, but you can see he's unhappy and that he and Dubas have different philosophies. And while different philosophies can be a good thing, it's creating disagreements that is creating cracks.

Marek asked on a scale of 1-10, how serious is this getting, Friedman didn't really answer but says it is creeping up every day

Friedman says Dubas wants to win a certain way, and Babcock may not believe in it. Dubas believes the premium is skill, and no matter how minimal the improvement is, if there is an improvement on a skill basis, they are going to do it, even if it costs "grit" and "toughness" or a role player. (See, Petan for Lindholm)

Friedman said he asked Babcock about going to the Finals in 2003 with 6 LHD with the Ducks, and Babcock said it's too fast of a game now to expect players to play their offside.

Friedman said while Babcock doesn't believe in fighting necessarily, he still believes in grinding other players down, while Dubas thinks skill trumps everything.

Friedman says that Babcock, he says it a lot that you only have so many chances, and you can tell, that, for whatever reason, maybe it's the Sheldon Keefe extension coming, that even if there is 4 years left on his deal, that Babcock isn't sure how much shelf life he has left, which is why he's been calling out the composition of the team lately, trying to change the tone, essentially being political, so if things go south, it's a composition issue, not a coaching issue.

Friedman ended things by saying that since the Tavares-Islanders game, things have been very tense, and it's a question worth asking of whether a separation may happen.
 

Einzakin

Registered User
Jan 20, 2011
1,629
678
I think Dubas is right. The game is about skill more nowso than ever, and that won't change. Nothing wrong with having a few grinders but Babcock continues to play guys like Brown, Marleau, Kadri - even though they've all been awful this season. Somehow Kadri finds himself on the 1st powerplay while not providing any offence for the team. You can respect the past and what players have done while still understand that the game is changed and it's time to go with skill.
 

Einzakin

Registered User
Jan 20, 2011
1,629
678
Babcock's philosophy has won him a Cup and Olympic Golds.

Dubas' philosophy has won him an AHL title.

Tough call here.

I could have coached team Canada to a gold so lets calm down on that.

He did win with Detroit, but lets not pretend that's all Babcock. That was the players. Babcock actually has fairly limited playoff success. Since 2009 his playoff track record has been shit. That coincides with a new game and new style. He just doesn't adapt and if he doesn't have the best team he can't seem to do anything.
 

jaric1862

Registered User
Jan 14, 2014
4,004
1,756
Not saying that id be for it, but I can honestly could see them mutually splitting ways if Babs see's some other coaching vacancies which he likes. ( i could see him really liking the panthers with Barkov, Ekblad and possibly Panarin/Bobrovsky) Babcock really wasn't dubas's hire after all, and there seems to be a large disconnect between the team philosophy on how they should play and actual deployment. After that Dubas would obviously ride with his guy, Sheldon Keefe, who has virtually been his coach for his entire career (Greyhounds and Marlies)
 

Bomber0104

Registered User
Apr 8, 2007
15,056
6,903
Burlington
I could have coached team Canada to a gold so lets calm down on that.

Yet he did, twice, and you haven't.

Must have missed your calling.

He did win with Detroit, but lets not pretend that's all Babcock. That was the players. Babcock actually has fairly limited playoff success. Since 2009 his playoff track record has been ****. That coincides with a new game and new style. He just doesn't adapt and if he doesn't have the best team he can't seem to do anything.

The fact they made the playoffs every single year he was there with aging core players like Datsyuk and Zetterberg are evidence enough that his way works.

It's great Dubas is well read up on blogs but his resume is paltry in comparison and will continue to be if he doesn't adapt to a contact league like the NHL.
 

Jozay

Registered User
Jul 9, 2012
14,627
10,573
Toronto
I dont really buy this either. Dubas probably realizes the value of "grit", but he wants it in a useful player. Leafs have been linked to Anderson and Ferland, two players who have an edge to their game but actually bring value elsewhere. I mean, Dubas literally acquired Muzzin who's another guy that fits into that mold. I think the difference is Babcock wants a Komarov or Polak whereas Dubas doesnt.
 

CantLoseWithMatthews

Registered User
Sep 28, 2015
49,694
59,401
Yet he did, twice, and you haven't.

Must have missed your calling.



The fact they made the playoffs every single year he was there with aging core players like Datsyuk and Zetterberg are evidence enough that his way works.

It's great Dubas is well read up on blogs but his resume is paltry in comparison and will continue to be if he doesn't adapt to a contact league like the NHL.
Babcock sure looks like the one who has failed to adapt, as evidence by his lack of success over the last several years
 

Einzakin

Registered User
Jan 20, 2011
1,629
678
Yet he did, twice, and you haven't.

Must have missed your calling.



The fact they made the playoffs every single year he was there with aging core players like Datsyuk and Zetterberg are evidence enough that his way works.

It's great Dubas is well read up on blogs but his resume is paltry in comparison and will continue to be if he doesn't adapt to a contact league like the NHL.

Well I guess my point was missed. Any coach wins those golds. That's fairly obvious.

As far as making the playoffs every year, they also made them with Jeff Blashill while Datsyuk and Z were playing. So I mean, your argument doesn't hold much ground. Babcock went out on the first and 2nd rounds in the new NHL. He can't adapt. He's known to have a bunch of problems with a bunch of players.

I understand you have to be tough on players and make people earn their stripes. Grit can be good. Problem is Babcock can't adapt. Over the past 10 years he hasn't had success. The Leafs are in turmoil right now. That's covered up by Anderson. Time for Babs to go.
 

Bomber0104

Registered User
Apr 8, 2007
15,056
6,903
Burlington
Well I guess my point was missed. Any coach wins those golds. That's fairly obvious.

As far as making the playoffs every year, they also made them with Jeff Blashill while Datsyuk and Z were playing. So I mean, your argument doesn't hold much ground. Babcock went out on the first and 2nd rounds in the new NHL. He can't adapt. He's known to have a bunch of problems with a bunch of players.

I understand you have to be tough on players and make people earn their stripes. Grit can be good. Problem is Babcock can't adapt. Over the past 10 years he hasn't had success. The Leafs are in turmoil right now. That's covered up by Anderson. Time for Babs to go.

Adapt to what?

Einzakin-from-the-internet's opinion? :laugh:

What is your opinion actually based on?
 

Leafsfan74

Registered User
Jul 2, 2018
4,925
5,097
On the 31 thoughts podcast, Friedman talked further about the Dubas/Babcock stuff.

Said for personal reasons, he finds it hard to criticize Babcock, but you can see he's unhappy and that he and Dubas have different philosophies. And while different philosophies can be a good thing, it's creating disagreements that is creating cracks.

Marek asked on a scale of 1-10, how serious is this getting, Friedman didn't really answer but says it is creeping up every day

Friedman says Dubas wants to win a certain way, and Babcock may not believe in it. Dubas believes the premium is skill, and no matter how minimal the improvement is, if there is an improvement on a skill basis, they are going to do it, even if it costs "grit" and "toughness" or a role player. (See, Petan for Lindholm)

Friedman said he asked Babcock about going to the Finals in 2003 with 6 LHD with the Ducks, and Babcock said it's too fast of a game now to expect players to play their offside.

Friedman said while Babcock doesn't believe in fighting necessarily, he still believes in grinding other players down, while Dubas thinks skill trumps everything.

Friedman says that Babcock, he says it a lot that you only have so many chances, and you can tell, that, for whatever reason, maybe it's the Sheldon Keefe extension coming, that even if there is 4 years left on his deal, that Babcock isn't sure how much shelf life he has left, which is why he's been calling out the composition of the team lately, trying to change the tone, essentially being political, so if things go south, it's a composition issue, not a coaching issue.

Friedman ended things by saying that since the Tavares-Islanders game, things have been very tense, and it's a question worth asking of whether a separation may happen.


I side with Babcock on this. Not that you don't need skill, because of course you do, but you also need balance within the lineup and a couple of bodies who can play strong on the puck and raise everyones elses game, especially on the backend.

If nobody is hitting, everybody is backing down from puck battles, the guy beside you on the bench doesn't feel a need to do anything differently. If you have guys who find their balls and are willing to give it all to win, then everyone else plays 3 inches taller and decides "I'm not going to be the odd man out".

This is where the Boston series will be a great barometer. Some guys elevate their game and commitment come playoffs. Look at Bostons top line, gritty, fearless guys. This isn't about meatheads, this is about the will to win. I've seen Matthews bring it possibly more than any of the other skill guys, he is a big body and I'd love to see him keep playing with edge this post season. Kadri HAS to be that guy in the playoffs. I'm praying he is the same guy as he was in past post seasons (outside of the poorly timed suspension).

Anybody who has played sports knows that if you feel the other team or opponent in an individual sport is "game", you know you're going to be worn down and pay a price. You can get put off your game in a more defensive mode if your belief is the other guys are going through the wall for the win.

If the Leafs bring what they brought in the 3rd period last game against the Habs, this team has a legitimate shot at the Cup. The skill is there, I sometimes shake my head at how talented some of these guys are, but they need to have the commitment and will to win.
 

moon111

Registered User
Oct 18, 2014
2,890
1,283
If Babcock is wrong, so is the league. There's a reason nobody is grabbing all these offensive midgets. Although there could be a good case in saying these small skilled players are good value for the buck if nobody else wants them, which in a salary cap world could be important. All I know is everyone wanted Hyman off Matthews line, and now Matthews is doing more harm then good to the team without any grit on his line. Simply put, think every successful line I've ever seen has had a player with grit+, passing+, scoring+. Hyman, Marner, Tavares. +15 to +23. With Ennis as the average player on this team in hits per games played, this team is hopeless.
 

Einzakin

Registered User
Jan 20, 2011
1,629
678
Adapt to what?

Einzakin-from-the-internet's opinion? :laugh:

What is your opinion actually based on?

It's fairly obvious he has problems with skilled players. Again, I already he pointed out he's overplayed Brown/Marleau/Kadri all year. He'd be playing Komarov and other "gritty vets" if they were here too. He needs to adapt to the new NHL, which is based on skill and not all grit.

Also try to argue on facts and not ad hominem me plz.
 

hockeynorth

Registered User
Aug 31, 2017
12,590
6,384
I dont really buy this either. Dubas probably realizes the value of "grit", but he wants it in a useful player. Leafs have been linked to Anderson and Ferland, two players who have an edge to their game but actually bring value elsewhere. I mean, Dubas literally acquired Muzzin who's another guy that fits into that mold. I think the difference is Babcock wants a Komarov or Polak whereas Dubas doesnt.
Lets not forget either that Dubas has typically brought in "grit" players for his team, he's definitely not anti size
 

Gallagbi

Formerly Eazy_B97
Jul 5, 2005
48,760
11,330
Babcock sure looks like the one who has failed to adapt, as evidence by his lack of success over the last several years
Guess it depends how you define success and several years. He took some questionable Wings teams to the playoffs including one heavily injured group that passed a much better Leafs team. We also weren't expected to make the playoffs in Matthews rookie season either.

Both Dubas and Babcock need to flex, both have issues with their line of thinking. Babs isn't maximizing skillsets well and Dubas isn't providing ample bottom 6 options IMO. It's not about just skill, just grit, etc.. it's about player impact.
 
Last edited:

Trapper

Registered User
Nov 21, 2013
23,746
11,015
If Dubas think skill trumps everything he’s wrong IMO.
That’s very one dimensional thinking.
I hope that’s not his end all thinking.

Life isn’t just one way.
But he has the rope now. He will either use it to tie it all together nicely or hang himself with it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad