Friedman: NHL and NHLPA "quietly renegotiating CBA" (upd: neither party opts out for 2020)

[WingsMJN2965]

If you look at my first reply to the guy I was only making a statement. You are the one with the snide remark.

And your statement was quickly debunked after pointing out that the NHL is trying to keep the CBA going, but you still keep spewing nonsense.

 

[Ernie]

What overall positives do you see? And, can you put some numbers to them, even if they are estimates?

The gold medal game for the Vancouver Olympics drew 27 million American viewers and 16 million Canadian viewers. That's a whole lot of casual viewers who were exposed to hockey at its highest levels.

I continue to see the balance for the NHL like this:
Go to Olympics = more exposure which could lead to merchandise and media sales in China. This is the ONLY benefit.

Don't go = No player gets injured, which means that we don't lose start players whose jerseys sell really well, and we don't lose the media excitement of having them in the last games of the season.

Don't g0 = The eyes of hockey fans in North America stay focused on us. The NHL. We don't have to give up the spotlight and then get it back.

In general, I don't see much positive about going.

Well your bias is clearly established so I doubt I'll be able say much to convince you.

But you seem to come from the perspective that hockey as a sport has zero room for audience growth in North America. The reality is it's a distant 4th in the North American sports media market and before too long likely to be 5th. Revenue growth has slowed considerably and the fanbase is rapidly aging.

The Olympics are a great opportunity to educate and expose casual viewers to the biggest names in the NHL. Maybe the dinosaur owners don't like the focus to be on stars instead of on their own brands, but the focus on stars works great for other global sports like soccer and basketball.

Hockey is a huge challenge to market. Even Canadians are less and less likely to grow up playing the sport instead of soccer or basketball. It's a great game but is pretty niche and the buttoned down culture doesn't help.

Game times? Well, China is about 12 hours different than New York, for example. 12 hours. That means that a 7:30 New York start time begins at 7:30 AM for the players in China. There would be few tickets purchased at that time, and the play wouldn't get the best, either, because the players' body clocks are not well adjusted to that.

Try to play a Saturday afternoon matinee? It has to start at 4 AM China time.

It doesn't work. And, the IOC isn't going to want to make concessions to get the players there.

This is ridiculous. Plenty of Olympic events start at that time. An evening game (local time) with 2nd or 3rd tier talent is likely to be less of a draw than a morning game with the best players in the sport. And it doesn't even have to be all games - only those that involve North American teams. Even if the IOC loses in ticket sales (which I doubt) it easily makes up for it in North America media rights.

 

[MNNumbers]

I won't dispute that, when the Games are played in North America, it's a far different story. But I thought we were talking about the Games to be played in China.

As for the rest, I completely agree that hockey is difficult to market.

Unfortunately, marketing 'hockey' doesn't help the NHL owners. Marketing 'NHL' would. That's the problem.

Again... Playing in China might have long term benefits. It has many short term liabilities. Your equation to weigh those two factors from the NHL BOG perspective is different from mine.

Your equation of benefit to the IOC is different from that of the IOC as well. If they saw the possibility of vastly increased North Amer broadcast rights outweighing the other factors, they would have made it happen in South Korea.

 

[LadyStanley]

<insert Jeopardy theme>

 

[TOGuy14]

Fehr: 1 lockout in the NHL + two strikes (including a cancelled World Series) and a lockout in MLB

Really, everyone going to dump on Fehr?

Bettman has had three lockouts in 25 years leading to two half seasons and a cancelled Stanley Cup.

 

[iamjs]

Really, everyone going to dump on Fehr?

Bettman has had three lockouts in 25 years leading to two half seasons and a cancelled Stanley Cup.

I think dumping on him is quite fehr... I mean fair.

With the NHL locking out the players at midnight on September 15, 2012, Fehr became the only Executive Director of a players union to be directly involved in work stoppages in two sports. Six of the eight contract negotiations he has been involved in have resulted in work stoppages, including five consecutive negotiations between the MLBPA and Major League Baseball.

Donald Fehr - Wikipedia

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I think dumping on him is quite fehr... I mean fair.


Donald Fehr - Wikipedia

There was also that whole "1994 World Series is cancelled" thing that took steroids leading to juiced HR totals to bring back the game - and, let's not forget: the MLBPA fought steroid testing tooth-and-nail until Congress threatened to intervene.

But yeah, let's pin it all on Bettman.

 

[MNNumbers]

There was also that whole "1994 World Series is cancelled" thing that took steroids leading to juiced HR totals to bring back the game - and, let's not forget: the MLBPA fought steroid testing tooth-and-nail until Congress threatened to intervene.

But yeah, let's pin it all on Bettman.

Why is anyone trying to pin it all on either one?

It's business and it's a negotiation. Each side wants as much as they can get. That's the simple truth.

In situation like that, no one wants to give anything, so nothing happens until there is leverage. It takes lost games for there to be leverage.

Simple.

 

[Llama19]

Quiet?

Source: news.yahoo.com/quiet-cba-front-could-good-225109860.html

 

[iamjs]

There was also that whole "1994 World Series is cancelled" thing that took steroids leading to juiced HR totals to bring back the game - and, let's not forget: the MLBPA fought steroid testing tooth-and-nail until Congress threatened to intervene.

But yeah, let's pin it all on Bettman.

I never said Bettman was a saint in this. He has a hand in this too.

But six out of eight possible work stoppages in two different sports under his watch. That's not an accident.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Why is anyone trying to pin it all on either one?

I never said Bettman was a saint in this. He has a hand in this too.

My post was directed at the small but incredibly vocal BUTTMAN IS TEH DEBIL crowd, not the rational folks.

 

[MNNumbers]

My post was directed at the small but incredibly vocal BUTTMAN IS TEH DEBIL crowd, not the rational folks.

I knew that about you, ACAS. I was trying to point out the reality of the process.

 

[LadyStanley]

La Dee da de da se, la Dee da, la dee da. (Musical interlude)

 

[LadyStanley]

Tuesday will be the third business day in a row the NHL and NHLPA have met for CBA negotiations. There were several more meetings in the summer; those went under the radar. With the player deadline to re-open the CBA on Sunday, there’s a soft deadline, and deadlines spur action. Last spring, the players were hoping the escrow problem could be solved by their pension or benefit costs being moved to the ownership side of ledger, but, as far as I can tell, that’s not on the radar.

What I do think is a possibility is both sides work to avoid what happened last year, where an $83-million cap was projected only to have it fall short. That squeezed the teams — and the middle-class player. What could happen is that the 2020–21 cap is set much earlier than we’re used to, based on 2018–19 revenues, instead of waiting until next June. Setting the cap earlier gives a better chance to avoid overly optimistic projections and decisions made because of them. That might end up happening throughout the extension. We don’t know if it can be done by the weekend, but there’s no question we’re getting less rhetoric than we’re used to. Thank God.

Interesting. Lower than expected cap hit made it harder for a handful of teams this summer.

And...

I’m very curious to see if, as part of the new CBA, NHL teams get the right to send some 19-year-old Canadian Junior picks to the AHL.

Definitely some situations where the player would develop better in AHL vs CHL.

 

[cptjeff]

Definitely some situations where the player would develop better in AHL vs CHL.

That would be very interesting, and long overdue. And in the PA's interest as well, really. Players get paid a fair bit more in the AHL than in juniors. There are quite a lot of players whose development is hindered by that rule, and the fact that it doesn't apply to European players has got to irritate some of the guys coming out of junior along with the teams. The only party it serves is the CHL, and they're not party to this negotiation.

 

[joestevens29]

That would be very interesting, and long overdue. And in the PA's interest as well, really. Players get paid a fair bit more in the AHL than in juniors. There are quite a lot of players whose development is hindered by that rule, and the fact that it doesn't apply to European players has got to irritate some of the guys coming out of junior along with the teams. The only party it serves is the CHL, and they're not party to this negotiation.

I think they have to limit how many guys a team can send.

Less competition in the CHL could end up having a negative effect on the development of prospects.

 

[Mightygoose]

It's past business hours on the final business day before the PA can opt out, through they still have to end of Sunday.

At this time 2 weeks earlier, the owners advised they we're not going to re-open so this is cutting it closer in comparison.

I take it the PA has until 11:59pm EST on Sunday? Are the sides still meeting throughout the weekend?

 

[mouser]

It's past business hours on the final business day before the PA can opt out, through they still have to end of Sunday.

At this time 2 weeks earlier, the owners advised they we're not going to re-open so this is cutting it closer in comparison.

I take it the PA has until 11:59pm EST on Sunday? Are the sides still meeting throughout the weekend?

There have been reports the NHL would be willing to extend the deadline if negotiations were still ongoing.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

That would be very interesting, and long overdue. And in the PA's interest as well, really. Players get paid a fair bit more in the AHL than in juniors. There are quite a lot of players whose development is hindered by that rule, and the fact that it doesn't apply to European players has got to irritate some of the guys coming out of junior along with the teams. The only party it serves is the CHL, and they're not party to this negotiation.

That's going to require a change to the NHL-CHL agreement that's currently in place. I'm going to gue$$ the CHL ha$ $ome thing$ that it might want exchange for thi$ idea, .... but I don't know exactly what tho$e might be.

 

[StreetHawk]

There have been reports the NHL would be willing to extend the deadline if negotiations were still ongoing.

Sooner or later they’ll need a firm deadline. Whether it’s this Sunday or the end of September or next year in September, the 2 sides need to come to an agreement on a new cba.

Guess the good part about them making progress is that the PA doesn’t appear to want to blow up the current hard cap system for an nba luxury tax style. That should make negotiations run more smoothly as the owners maintain their hard cap so everything else is just how the system operates.

If you're an owner you probably want to maximize your spending since you are protected by escrow. Would like to get out of a mistake as painlessly as possible so that you can spend that cap on someone better. So maybe buyouts and max term contracts are their focus.

 

[LadyStanley]

There have been reports the NHL would be willing to extend the deadline if negotiations were still ongoing.

Which have been denied. Agreement to change CBA at a minimum to change the 9/15/19 deadline would have to come first.

 

[LeHab]

Decision expected on Monday:

Report: NHLPA to make its decision on reopening CBA on Monday - Sportsnet.ca

From CBA:

31.3 Time Periods. Unless expressly stated to the contrary, the specification of any time
period in this Agreement shall include any non-business days within such period, except that any
deadline falling on a Saturday, Sunday, or Federal, Provincial or Civil Holiday shall be deemed
to fall on the following business day.

First time I heard today about the deadline technically falling on the 16th (next business day). Was this previously reported in the media?

 

[LadyStanley]

Business day of week thing.

So could be another day of negotiations on Monday.

 

[jkrdevil]

How dumb is it that the cba expires in September rather than June 30? You could conceivably go into the offseason not knowing what the rules regarding the cap will be for the following season.

 

[SotasicA]

How dumb is it that the cba expires in September rather than June 30? You could conceivably go into the offseason not knowing what the rules regarding the cap will be for the following season.

They barely announced this season's cap by June 30th. It's one of those things you have to learn how to live with. 2020-21 cap isn't a current issue anyway, all things considered.

CBA expiration in September makes sense compared to June 30th also. It'd be just too much at once. And then when making CBA decisions, it's probably good to see what happened in the off-season first.