Friedman: NHL and NHLPA "quietly renegotiating CBA" (upd: neither party opts out for 2020)

[justafan22]

The NHL and NHLPA did the expected last weekend, announcing a ceiling of $81.5 million — $1.5 million below mid-season projections. As the league and players quietly work towards extending/renegotiating the CBA, word was the majority of players would vote for a minimal increase to the cap. (Players can bump it up to five per cent. They chose 0.5 per cent.) A similar maneuver is expected for 2020-21. The hope of a new US television deal means a more significant rise for 2021-22.

31 Thoughts: Could short-term deals break RFA stalemates? - Sportsnet.ca

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[tony d]

Anything to prevent a lockout is key to me. The last thing the NHL needs is another lockout.

 

[gstommylee]

Anything to prevent a lockout is key to me. The last thing the NHL needs is another lockout.

As long as Fehr is in charge of the NHLPA expect there to be lockouts. Perhaps if the NHLPA had an exec that actually cares about the players instead of trying to beat the league in terms of CBA, then these lockouts wouldn't be happening. It was Fehr and the 94 MLB strike that caused the world series to be cancelled is the exact reason why you don't start a season with out a CBA in place.

 

[Rocko604]

Fully expecting another lockout. It's the Fehr way.

 

[Grudy0]

The Fehr way?

Fehr: 1 lockout in the NHL
Goodenow: 2 lockouts and a strike in the NHL
Bettman: 3 lockouts in the NHL

You guys need to stop blaming leadership. The fights are between the rank-and-file of each organization. Then some of the fights end up because of mutual disrespect.

For example, as the owners and the League terminated their prior CBA when the HRR split was 57-43 in favor of the players, their first proposal should not then be a full reversal at 57-43 in favor of the owners. The owners and the League were crying debts in 2004 for Lockout II, but they weren't crying anything for Lockout III in 2013; they just wanted to extract a pound of flesh.

But let's blame Donald Fehr.

 

[gstommylee]

The Fehr way?

Fehr: 1 lockout in the NHL
Goodenow: 2 lockouts and a strike in the NHL
Bettman: 3 lockouts in the NHL

You guys need to stop blaming leadership. The fights are between the rank-and-file of each organization. Then some of the fights end up because of mutual disrespect.

For example, as the owners and the League terminated their prior CBA when the HRR split was 57-43 in favor of the players, their first proposal should not then be a full reversal at 57-43 in favor of the owners. The owners and the League were crying debts in 2004 for Lockout II, but they weren't crying anything for Lockout III in 2013; they just wanted to extract a pound of flesh.

But let's blame Donald Fehr.

Fehr has made a history of causing work stoppage going back to 1994 MLB strike. And there's going to be another one too. Fehr only wants to beat the NHL cause of ego he doesn't give a rip about the players never has never will. Again it was that 94 MLB strike that resulted in leagues locking out the players after the CBA expires and you can blame on that Fehr.

 

[Grudy0]

Fehr nor the NHLPA didn't dump the CBA in 2012 - the owners did by exercising their out-clause, obviously dissatisfied by the CBA that they fought for so badly in 2004-05 that they locked out the players for an entire season.
Fehr didn't propose the players take a massive haircut in salaries - the owners did as their first proposal after dumping the existing CBA.
Fehr didn't cause the 2012 work stoppage - the owners did, as they dumped the CBA and made a derogatory first proposal.

So blaming Fehr for 2012 work stoppage is like peeing headlong into the wind and expecting to stay dry.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Fehr nor the NHLPA didn't dump the CBA in 2012 - the owners did by exercising their out-clause, obviously dissatisfied by the CBA that they fought for so badly in 2004-05 that they locked out the players for an entire season.
Fehr didn't propose the players take a massive haircut in salaries - the owners did as their first proposal after dumping the existing CBA.
Fehr didn't cause the 2012 work stoppage - the owners did, as they dumped the CBA and made a derogatory first proposal.

So blaming Fehr for 2012 work stoppage is like peeing headlong into the wind and expecting to stay dry.

My recollection on this [the notes that I have on it are back home] is that while yes, the NHL did opt-out of the 2005 CBA, it had tried to talk to the NHLPA about a new CBA before September 15, 2012. Bettman had made several overtures to Fehr to sit down and talk, and Fehr continually brushed him off. Essentially, Fehr was trying to bait Bettman into negotiating against himself while giving up nothing; Bettman didn't take the bait, so Fehr made the decision that the NHL wouldn't risk yet another protracted labor stoppage and would come to the table quickly, eager to get a deal done without missing numerous games yet again.

He lost that gamble. He did get the players high quality bath towels though, so ... :golfclap:

 

[Nino33]

The Fehr way?

Fehr: 1 lockout in the NHL
Goodenow: 2 lockouts and a strike in the NHL
Bettman: 3 lockouts in the NHL

Fehr: 1 lockout in the NHL + two strikes (including a cancelled World Series) and a lockout in MLB

 

[MNNumbers]

My recollection on this [the notes that I have on it are back home] is that while yes, the NHL did opt-out of the 2005 CBA, it had tried to talk to the NHLPA about a new CBA before September 15, 2012. Bettman had made several overtures to Fehr to sit down and talk, and Fehr continually brushed him off. Essentially, Fehr was trying to bait Bettman into negotiating against himself while giving up nothing; Bettman didn't take the bait, so Fehr made the decision that the NHL wouldn't risk yet another protracted labor stoppage and would come to the table quickly, eager to get a deal done without missing numerous games yet again.

He lost that gamble. He did get the players high quality bath towels though, so ... :golfclap:

But one could also say that, in offering to turn the 57/43 split upside down, that Bettman et al were also trying to entice the players to negotiate against themselves. The reality of negotiations, when much is at stake, is that very little happens until there is leverage, and in this case the leverage came when games were being lost.

As for the present situation, I still think it's comical. The players should know that the 50/50 split is NOT on the table for discussion. If the only real issue is escrow, then the issue continues to be a player education and math problem. The owners have nothing to give up.

It's just amazing to me that the players somehow think that the owners are mistreating them. I mean, I understand that losing 10% of what looks like your salary on paper hurts your feelings, but all the ideas of how that works are very clearly spelled out in the CBA.

So, we still come back to this:
If Fehr is simply confrontational, he can frame the issue for the players that the owners are robbing them through escrow, and he could push for major changes (and he would love to remove the cap, but that won't happen). If the players believe that, then this will get ugly and there will be an opt-out and another work stoppage.

If Fehr is reasonable at all, he will tell the players, "Look, what we have here is a math problem. The way the CBA is arranged, it looks like you guys are getting more in your contracts than is really available to you. We are going to work on making that a closer margin, but it will take some negotiations."

That's all there really is to this.

If the owners are at fault at all, it would be because they knew when they wrote the present rules that most owners/teams would spend to the cap, not the midpoint, so there would be lots of escrow. But it lessened the fight last time because salaries didn't have to be held down as long to get things closer. I don't know if that's what happened, but that's the only way the owners could be at fault here.

And, again, the answer is very simple.

1- Negotiate and let the players dictate what they think is an acceptable level of escrow. Let's say that losing 5% of salaries is agreeable.
2- MATH: Under a roughly 80M cap ceiling, the players lost 10% of salaries. Since spending is usually 97% of cap, that means something like contracted salaries were 77M, and actual HRR allowed the players to receive 69M. At 5% escrow, the salaries would have been 72.5M, so the cap should have been something like 75M. Very roughly, the cap should have been 5% less than it was. (and, that number increases if the players want less escrow losses - escrow withholdings are a different matter, and more complicated math. Ideally, the league withholds something like 3-5%, and the players get it all back. But we are talking actual losses here, not temporary withholdings)
3- Cap should be 5% lower (or more if the players want less escrow).
4- Current HRR growth average is less than that. It's more like 2.5%, so it would take 2 years of salary cap freezes to 'catch up'. And, more years if the players want less.
5- Institute some sort of very slow cap ceiling growth factor for about 3 years, and at the end of that....
6- Write it into the CBA that the salary cap will be.....HRR from last year {I know the final numbers aren't in, but surely there are economists who can do a good strong estimate of the last few weeks} * avg HRR growth * 1.03 {this accommodates how close to actual cap ceiling the teams spend} * 1.05 {or whatever escrow is acceptable}.
7- The owners should readily accept this. There is NO reason for them not to do so.

But, again, the players will probably scream because salaries on the contracts are being frozen. And, again, this is where we find out who Fehr really is:

If he calms them down and explains to them what's happening, then he's reasonable.
If allows them to fester a fighting attitude because of slow cap growth, blaming the owners, then we know he actually just wants a fight.

 

[Grudy0]

Fehr: 1 lockout in the NHL + two strikes (including a cancelled World Series) and a lockout in MLB

So Fehr's first 10 years as Executive Director of the MLBPA resulted in a strike in 1985 that cancelled no games, a lockout in 1990 that cancelled no games, and the 1994 strike that cancelled the remainder of the season and the World Series. So the only true damage in Fehr's 25+ year tenure as Executive Director is the 1994 season. Relatively peaceful, especially considering the four stoppages the ten years under Marvin Miller.

My recollection on this [the notes that I have on it are back home] is that while yes, the NHL did opt-out of the 2005 CBA, it had tried to talk to the NHLPA about a new CBA before September 15, 2012. Bettman had made several overtures to Fehr to sit down and talk, and Fehr continually brushed him off. Essentially, Fehr was trying to bait Bettman into negotiating against himself while giving up nothing; Bettman didn't take the bait, so Fehr made the decision that the NHL wouldn't risk yet another protracted labor stoppage and would come to the table quickly, eager to get a deal done without missing numerous games yet again.

He lost that gamble. He did get the players high quality bath towels though, so ... :golfclap:

The NHL and Gary Bettman officially invoked their opt-out to terminate the CBA on 16 May 2012 and delivered their first new (and belligerent) CBA proposal on 14 July. So for quite some time the NHL planned and planned and planned how they were going to get what they want, and the best they could do was wait until two months prior to the start of training camp to deliver a proposal that was in bad faith and DOA to the NHLPA. That crappy proposal could have been delivered anytime earlier. And this is all Donald Fehr's fault?

 

[Nino33]

So Fehr's first 10 years as Executive Director of the MLBPA resulted in a strike in 1985 that cancelled no games, a lockout in 1990 that cancelled no games, and the 1994 strike that cancelled the remainder of the season and the World Series. So the only true damage in Fehr's 25+ year tenure as Executive Director is the 1994 season. Relatively peaceful, especially considering the four stoppages the ten years under Marvin Miller.

What you posted was disingenuous

I quit supporting or really caring about sides in pro sports decades ago - I don't care at all if they strike or if there's a lockout, I'll just do something else with my time. You obviously are into one side is wrong and one side is right thinking and want to argue it...I don't. Just pointed out your comment was disingenuous

 

[Grudy0]

What you posted was disingenuous

I quit supporting or really caring about sides in pro sports decades ago - I don't care at all if they strike or if there's a lockout, I'll just do something else with my time. You obviously are into one side is wrong and one side is right thinking and want to argue it...I don't. Just pointed out your comment was disingenuous

I'm into "one side is wrong"? I'm countering those that have completely blamed Fehr, including yourself. I counter with facts, and that's "disingenuous"?

It's funny when folks claim they don't care about sides yet throw out opinions supporting a side.

 

[Nino33]

I'm into "one side is wrong"? I'm countering those that have completely blamed Fehr, including yourself. I counter with facts, and that's "disingenuous"?

It's funny when folks claim they don't care about sides yet throw out opinions supporting a side.

I didn't blame Fehr in any way, didn't suggest in the slightest anything about who was at fault, I just provided some basic facts

The fact that you left them out was disingenuous...that's a comment about what you did, not a show of support to either the NHL or NHLPA (or anyone else for that matter)


And I specifically told you what my opinion was: "I don't care at all if they strike or if there's a lockout, I'll just do something else with my time" - this isn't "supporting a side"

 

[Grudy0]

My comment about one NHL lockout under Fehr is disingenuous, because I need to include his MLBPA Executive Director tenure with the two work stoppages that cancelled no games and the strike that the MLBPA called because they had the greatest amount of leverage since the NHLPA strike at the end of the 1991-92 season? There's been 24 years of labor peace since the most recent work stoppage in MLB, and Fehr was head of that union for the first 14 years after the strike.

Then the players hire Fehr in December 2010 due to his success as a negotiator, yet the players don't seem to be getting any blame because the 2012 NHL Lockout (an instrument that can only be used by the NHL and the franchise owners) is all Fehr's fault?

I'm just tired of demonizing Fehr for a conflict between owners and players, when the whole truth of the 2012 NHL Lockout was that the NHL and its franchise owners were going to get the best deal possible and used the leverage of a lockout to get those concessions.

 

[Nino33]

My comment about one NHL lockout under Fehr is disingenuous, because I need to include his MLBPA Executive Director tenure?

I thought so, yes


Because you were questioning what someone (not you) would call "the Fehr way?" and then you presented that view in a light that ignored his career in pro sports labour negotiations up until the last decade

The Fehr way?

Fehr: 1 lockout in the NHL
Goodenow: 2 lockouts and a strike in the NHL
Bettman: 3 lockouts in the NHL

Some people take "the Fehr way" to mean there'll be labour strife/discord based on his past (and not just starting in 2010)

Whether you agree with a view or not makes no difference to whether you're reasonably portraying that view (and I posted about the latter, not the former)


P.S. Some people will consider part of Fehr's tenure to include no NHL involvement in the 2018 Olympics for example & no matter whose fault it is (I'm sure you care! HaHa I don't), saying it's part of Fehr's tenure is still true (as it's part of Bettman's too)

 

[Ted Hoffman]

The NHL and Gary Bettman officially invoked their opt-out to terminate the CBA on 16 May 2012 and delivered their first new (and belligerent) CBA proposal on 14 July. So for quite some time the NHL planned and planned and planned how they were going to get what they want, and the best they could do was wait until two months prior to the start of training camp to deliver a proposal that was in bad faith and DOA to the NHLPA. That crappy proposal could have been delivered anytime earlier. And this is all Donald Fehr's fault?

Take it back a few steps. This should give a pretty decent timeline on events.

NHL lockout timeline: Let's remember the whole nightmare

Fehr talked about starting negotiations early, but when the NHL asked him for a meeting he turned the offer side with "we need more time." [Because the months prepping in advance apparently wasn't enough time.] The league's offer was July 14; Fehr wanted all kinds of documents from the league, the league pulled together what he wanted, and it took a month to get together a counter-offer which basically flipped the offer in the players' favor. The league responded with a counter-offer 2 weeks later; the two sides met for 90 minutes and then Fehr decided they were done talking.

Well, you can read the timeline on events. I'm not saying, and I didn't say, that Fehr was totally to blame for what happened. What I am saying is that the notion that the NHL was totally to blame and that it dragged its feet on negotiating is grossly off base.

My comment about one NHL lockout under Fehr is disingenuous, because I need to include his MLBPA Executive Director tenure with the two work stoppages that cancelled no games and the strike that the MLBPA called because they had the greatest amount of leverage since the NHLPA strike at the end of the 1991-92 season? There's been 24 years of labor peace since the most recent work stoppage in MLB, and Fehr was head of that union for the first 14 years after the strike.

While accurate that there hasn't been a work stoppage since the 1994 strike, much of that is because after the next CBA was negotiated the MLBPA pretty much had anything and everything it wanted and the owners were "led" by the ever-spineless Bud Selig and they had been beaten down into submission. Ever since, it's pretty much "what else do the players want that they can realistically have?" and "what are they willing to give the owners?"

When that's your negotiation terms, it's pretty easy for the players to go along with things - and the owners, having been routed in court in the past, aren't about to try and do anything that gets them slapped down yet again.

 

[Bookie21]

There's been 24 years of labor peace since the most recent work stoppage in MLB, and Fehr was head of that union for the first 14 years after the strike.
.

Are you suggesting this last Labor deal, including the last 24 years is a good deal for baseball? The current system is an embarrassment , and pretty much all fans agree it is s joke unless you're a Yankees or Red Sox fan . Fehr basically ruined baseball , and it shows in the ratings. A few select teams have a chance of winning each year. Fehr also was the chief punk who led the Expos out of Montreal with his cancelled season. Fehr is a menace, and he will lead the players to the slaughter house again this time around if he thinks escrow is a problem. If this bozo negotiates escrow, he will basically be negotiating against the NHLPA and the owners will bend him over the barrel.

 

[gstommylee]

Are you suggesting this last Labor deal, including the last 24 years is a good deal for baseball? The current system is an embarrassment , and pretty much all fans agree it is s joke unless you're a Yankees or Red Sox fan . Fehr basically ruined baseball , and it shows in the ratings. A few select teams have a chance of winning each year. Fehr also was the chief punk who led the Expos out of Montreal with his cancelled season. Fehr is a menace, and he will lead the players to the slaughter house again this time around if he thinks escrow is a problem. If this bozo negotiates escrow, he will basically be negotiating against the NHLPA and the owners will bend him over the barrel.

What would help baseball is a salary cap. And it'll probably cost the league a season to get it. No more of these 30m a year for 10 years totally 300m like contracts.

The Cancel season was just the cancel of the 94 world series. The Expos didn't move out of Montreal until a decade later in 04.

I don't watch MLB anymore. Lost interest like wise with the NFL. Its only Soccer and hockey here.

 

[Grudy0]

Are you suggesting this last Labor deal, including the last 24 years is a good deal for baseball? The current system is an embarrassment , and pretty much all fans agree it is s joke unless you're a Yankees or Red Sox fan . Fehr basically ruined baseball , and it shows in the ratings. A few select teams have a chance of winning each year. Fehr also was the chief punk who led the Expos out of Montreal with his cancelled season. Fehr is a menace, and he will lead the players to the slaughter house again this time around if he thinks escrow is a problem. If this bozo negotiates escrow, he will basically be negotiating against the NHLPA and the owners will bend him over the barrel.

I'm suggesting the fallout from the 1994 strike that cost the last seven weeks of the regular season and the World Series was labor peace ever since. If it's not a good deal for "baseball", then there will be labor strife and either another strike or a lockout. And from comments on this entire thread, I'd suspect many would simply blame Donald Fehr.

What would help baseball is a salary cap. And it'll probably cost the league a season to get it. No more of these 30m a year for 10 years totally 300m like contracts.

The Cancel season was just the cancel of the 94 world series. The Expos didn't move out of Montreal until a decade later in 04.

I don't watch MLB anymore. Lost interest like wise with the NFL. Its only Soccer and hockey here.

I don't watch MLB much either. It's hockey and Aussie Rules here.

I just don't get why everyone feels that the players should bend over for the good of the game. People need to re-read how badly the players were being bent over the barrel by the NHL's proposals in 2012 until the threat of the NHLPA decertifying the union (there's another term for that) woke the owners up.

 

[gstommylee]

I'm suggesting the fallout from the 1994 strike that cost the last seven weeks of the regular season and the World Series was labor peace ever since. If it's not a good deal for "baseball", then there will be labor strife and either another strike or a lockout. And from comments on this entire thread, I'd suspect many would simply blame Donald Fehr.

I don't watch MLB much either. It's hockey and Aussie Rules here.

I just don't get why everyone feels that the players should bend over for the good of the game. People need to re-read how badly the players were being bent over the barrel by the NHL's proposals in 2012 until the threat of the NHLPA decertifying the union (there's another term for that) woke the owners up.

You are missing the point on Fehr it was that 94 strike is why you NEVER start a season with out a CBA in place.

Fehr continuing to be head of the NHLPA union and the players will still end up getting bet over barrel. Fehr wants to be the one that gets the NHL to cave to every demand and he'll declare victory to the players when realize he's just bragging how big his ego is. And he thinks work stoppage after stoppage after stoppage would get that and so far it hasn't. NHLPA need real leadership that decides on whats best interest of the players not of him/herself.

 

[Grudy0]

You are missing the point on Fehr it was that 94 strike is why you NEVER start a season with out a CBA in place.

I'm missing the point?

Try the 1991-92 NHL season, where the NHL started the season without a Collective Bargaining Agreement. I'm still wondering why Ziegler ended up being forced out of the NHL. Maybe it's because the NHL started a season without a CBA in place.

Fehr continuing to be head of the NHLPA union and the players will still end up getting bet over barrel. Fehr wants to be the one that gets the NHL to cave to every demand and he'll declare victory to the players when realize he's just bragging how big his ego is. And he thinks work stoppage after stoppage after stoppage would get that and so far it hasn't. NHLPA need real leadership that decides on whats best interest of the players not of him/herself.

This smacks of projection.

After all, believing somehow that Fehr "thinks work stoppage after work stoppage would get that and so far it hasn't" doesn't deal in the reality that Fehr has only been at the helm of one NHL work stoppage. And for some reason the players hired him. Don't forget that a lockout would be the owners forbidding the players from continuing to play and earn money without an active CBA.

Yet we are still somehow discussing that Fehr, who has been in place for one NHL work stoppage, is the devil. Meanwhile Gary Bettman has been leader of the NHL during three lockouts.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Yet we are still somehow discussing that Fehr, who has been in place for one NHL work stoppage, is the devil. Meanwhile Gary Bettman has been leader of the NHL during three lockouts.

I feel like Bob Goodenow isn't getting nearly enough mention in all of this. Well, maybe someone will recall his role in the 1992 players strike and the 1994-95 and 2004-05 lockouts and opine on all the work he did to scrap together an agreement that the NHL overtly ignored. If we're really lucky, someone will mention his offer to the NHL circa December, 2004 that sold the players out and sealed their fate.

 

[nofehr]

Take it back a few steps. This should give a pretty decent timeline on events.

NHL lockout timeline: Let's remember the whole nightmare

Fehr talked about starting negotiations early, but when the NHL asked him for a meeting he turned the offer side with "we need more time." [Because the months prepping in advance apparently wasn't enough time.] The league's offer was July 14; Fehr wanted all kinds of documents from the league, the league pulled together what he wanted, and it took a month to get together a counter-offer which basically flipped the offer in the players' favor. The league responded with a counter-offer 2 weeks later; the two sides met for 90 minutes and then Fehr decided they were done talking.

Well, you can read the timeline on events. I'm not saying, and I didn't say, that Fehr was totally to blame for what happened. What I am saying is that the notion that the NHL was totally to blame and that it dragged its feet on negotiating is grossly off base.


While accurate that there hasn't been a work stoppage since the 1994 strike, much of that is because after the next CBA was negotiated the MLBPA pretty much had anything and everything it wanted and the owners were "led" by the ever-spineless Bud Selig and they had been beaten down into submission. Ever since, it's pretty much "what else do the players want that they can realistically have?" and "what are they willing to give the owners?"

When that's your negotiation terms, it's pretty easy for the players to go along with things - and the owners, having been routed in court in the past, aren't about to try and do anything that gets them slapped down yet again.

Too bad I can't 'like' this post more than once. It's pretty easy to not go on strike when you're getting a 57% share. Fehr shouldn't be praised for that.

I thought it was brilliant when the owners started out with a 57% share offer. Funny how it's belligerent and insulting for the owners to ask for that but not the players.

 

[Grudy0]

I feel like Bob Goodenow isn't getting nearly enough mention in all of this. Well, maybe someone will recall his role in the 1992 players strike and the 1994-95 and 2004-05 lockouts and opine on all the work he did to scrap together an agreement that the NHL overtly ignored. If we're really lucky, someone will mention his offer to the NHL circa December, 2004 that sold the players out and sealed their fate.

That's because even though Bob Goodenow was Executive Director of the NHLPA from 1992 until 2005, presiding over the 1992 NHL strike as well as Lockout I in 1994 and Lockout II in 2004-5, I'm pretty sure that Goodenow wasn't responsible for anything.

It's much easier to simply blame Donald Fehr's big ego.