Salary Cap: Free Agency Doldrums - Part VII | Taters Signs Rehab Contract with Pens. e6

[Riptide]

We're only a year removed from our 3rd line being TK - Sutter - Cooke. We'll see if our new depth is definitively better than that.

As for starting the season with the majority of the team together, that's what I'd like too. Including an additional legit top 6 wing.

Like I said, we had TK - Sutter - Cooke as our 3rd line to start the '12-'13 season. We'll see if the new unit lives up to that standard.

But it's not like our top 6 was any better. To start the 12/13 season we had what... Neal, Dupuis and Kunitz, and Geno got stuck with whatever crap we picked up off the waiver wire. Not saying this top 6 is any better at this point as we'll have Hornqvist, Kunitz, Bennett (out of necessity) and then likely Dupuis or someone else. But I do think our overall depth - including that of the 3rd line is better than it was even in 12/13. Especially as we have players on the 4th line that could easily play on our 3rd - which isn't something we've had in the past.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

It was certainly fun to watch the rare times it's happened. They seemed to take a good bit of joy in trolling the opposing team. And would actually even do crazy, unheard of stuff like protect the front of their own net and get in opposing players faces with consistency.

Stuff like that got ya benched, though.

That pairing was great. Big, physical, kind of mean, trolling and mobile.

Then:

I actually can't remember if they were paired together then.

True. You know, the more I think about it, the more it baffles me that Despres didn't get to play more. I just keep thinking about Mark Eaton getting all that playing time.

Bylsma really had a problem with Despres, a completely irrational and ridiculous problem. Plus Eaton was a veteran.

 

[Riptide]

Now here is where I make the big move. I think Bobby Ryan is a perfect fit for Malkin's wing. He is in the prime of his career, a multiple 30 goal scorer, and has plenty of size. He's only signed for one more year, so a new contract would be a priority. But he's coming off of a down couple of years with Ottawa so maybe he'll sign for a reasonable amount. In return, I would be willing to part with Simon Despres, Beau Bennett, and Pascal Dupuis. The cap space just about evens out.

I'd call that pretty even.

Niederreiter-Crosby-Hornqist
Kunitz-Malkin-Ryan
Spaling-Sutter-Downie
Sill-Goc-Comeau
Megna

Ehroff Letang
Maata Bellemore
Samuellson Bortuzzo
Domoulin

1.9 left in cap space if you want to sign another veteran defenseman if you have an injury.

Ottawa would not take Despres, BB and Dupuis for Ryan. And trading Despres and BB for 1 yr of Ryan without an extension agreed to before hand is just plain stupid.

Also that D is brutal (and I'm in favor of letting the kids play). Ehrhoff also plays the right side, not the left. I haven't seen any of Bellemore's games so I can't say too much about him... but with a grande total of 72 NHL games to his name, I'm not in a rush to put him on the 2nd pairing - especially with Maatta out until Nov/Dec, which means he's on there with Dumo/Harrington/Sammy.

 

[Riptide]

The one conclusion that I and many here have drawn is this: It's gonna be very very difficult to find an established top six winger via a trade. If you propose trades with fans from other teams it's virtually impossible to get the player you want UNLESS you considerably overpay. I wasn't a fan of the Neal deal in the 1st place, and the longer this goes without correcting this problem the more it illustrates our blunder. We need more top six guys. Instead of trading Neal we should have endeavored into a trade for another winger and traded a defensemen.

If Neal was an issue in the room, he had to go. That said I'm still frustrated that they choose Spaling instead of someone with some upside/potential.

 

[Riptide]

You know, just saying something doesn't make it true. If you'd read the last umpteen pages that we've been discussing this, there are a few possible scenarios (mainly just one, trading Martin) where we can acquire a top-6 forward without giving up multiple players (at least not 2 roster players) or a 1st rounder. I agree that JR shouldn't be expected to turn this team around in just one offseason, but if the right deal is there for Martin, he should make it. Last thing I want is to be in the same spot next offseason trying to still find that top-6 forward, all while watching Martin walk in FA and we're left empty handed.

Sutter+, Maatta+, Despres+ are all viable options to bring back a young forward with top 6 potential.

 

[penguins2946*]

We only need to make 1 move for a top-6 winger. I'd look to do something around Dumoulin for Glencross and a pick. A small move that would pay off in a huge way.

 

[Hottubber]

We only need to make 1 move for a top-6 winger. I'd look to do something around Dumoulin for Glencross and a pick. A small move that would pay off in a huge way.

Glencross isn't moving from Calgary. I also think Dumo plus a pick isn't enough even if he did waive his no trade

 

[joeyjake5]

For the 100 billionth time, that's what I'm waiting for. It hasn't happened yet. What we have right now is:

Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis
Bennett-Malkin-Hornqvist
Spaling-Sutter-Downie
Adams-Goc-Comeau

If JR does acquire that top 6 winger before the season I'll sing his praises louder than anyone. I won't until then.

And probably more than likely what you will have at the beginning of the season.

 

[Riptide]

So I have suggested this before, and the more I look into it, the better it sounds:

1: Trade Sutter + Scuderi to Florida for a 2nd and our 3rd back.
2: Submit an offer sheet on Reilly Smith at 2/3 years with 5M AAV.

Boston has 5.668M in cap, (after they LTIR Savard,) and 6 roster spots to fill. 5M for one player is simply too much for them right now. They likely will have to drop some salary just to ice a competitive roster. You add a 5M offer sheet to match? They would have to drop even more salary. To the point where they may be forced to take the picks.

Boston would immediately match, and then work on offloading Kelly and McQuaid. It would be tight... but they can exceed the cap to start the season. Which means they match Smith's OS, then deal with making trades. Or they trade Eriksson and one of McQuaid and Kelly (both of whom are tradeable assets). Yes Boston is in a tight spot... but it's not like they don't have the assets that they could move.

 

[Riptide]

Reilly Smith is not eligible for an offer sheet so get that idea out of your heads. Section 10.2 (c) of the CBA.

That doesn't say anything about an offersheet, just that "A club which makes this qualifying offer will have the exclusive right to negotiate with any such player." I'm pretty sure that every RFA player is eligible to sign an OS.

 

[Riptide]

I'm all for moving out D for forwards, but that's too many. Losing Martin, Maatta, and Scuds is a little much. It's definitely an Xbox scenario. Love the forwards though. On the whole, I'm not sure the Kunitz+Scuds+Maatta trade makes us better after losing Martin. Just do the Nino trade and move Scuds for just cap space.

Why? That roster still has Letang, Ehrhoff and Del Zotto as vets, with Despres and Bort as more established young guys. That said, I agree it's a full XBox scenario.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

it took Shero 8 years and he still wasnt able. I vote we give Rutherford more than 20 minutes.

Shero inherited a team whose top wingers were a 38 year old Recchi and a wildly inconsistent Malone. When he left its top wingers were a 26 year old recent 1st Team All-Star and a 35 goal scorer, in spite of cap constraints that were much more pressing than what Rutherford has now.

One of the criticisms of the Shero regime mentioned in the Lemieux/Burkle interview was that they failed to produce more wingers for Sid and Geno. That was an explicit mandate for the new GM, and I'm waiting to see how much more successful he can be on that front.

Given that Rutherford made a conscious choice to take a defenseman for essentially the same price as an obvious option in Kulemin, it's fair to give him until the start of the season. And I am.

So basically you're just looking to criticize JR for not having his full roster ready in July when Shero didn't bring in the forward you're looking for, for years.

Once again, Kulemin didn't fill the real hole in our top 6. So passing on paying him 4+ mil is not the failure you're making it out to be. Upgrading on Kunitz via trade is what JR should be doing.

I don't see why you can't admit he's done a good job, but has one move left to make.

I'm giving him until the start of the season. I don't know how many times or in how many different ways I have to say it for you to understand.

JR has made some solid minor moves, but moving out an elite producer like Neal will not sit well with me until we get another legit scoring winger. It's all icing and no cake until that's addressed.

 

[Dupree13]

Ottawa would not take Despres, BB and Dupuis for Ryan. And trading Despres and BB for 1 yr of Ryan without an extension agreed to before hand is just plain stupid

If the Pens offered Despres+BB I think they would take that and run considering that Ryan seems unlikely to re-sign there.

 

[mpp9]

Why does JR get until the start of the season. And Shero got excuses for years?

I want the roster figured out by the start of the season as well. But I'm not the one constantly comparing him to Shero. If he takes a little longer b/c he wants to see how Maatta's doing before he makes his move, I'm not going to call him out. But I'm sure you will.

Ehrhoff was a better signing than Kulemin. If he signed Rob Scuderi over him, then yes, you'd have a point. But Ehrhoff is far more of an impact player than Kule here.

As for Neal. This team won't need him to win regular season games. And I'm failing to see how Neal was a difference maker in big games in the playoffs. Specifically, elimination games.

 

[themethod7]

Sutter+, Maatta+, Despres+ are all viable options to bring back a young forward with top 6 potential.

Agreed, I was just pointing out that Martin was the flavor of the month for trade discussions, and that he would be the one piece we could move without adding too much (if anything), since the person I was replying to was concerned about adding multiple players, picks, etc. Sutter would probably be the next on my list, I'd be wary of moving Despres, and any deal for Maatta would have to be overwhelming. But yeah... there are options, not sure why some people are insisting that any top-6 winger is out of our price range, but then I read this...

The one conclusion that I and many here have drawn is this: It's gonna be very very difficult to find an established top six winger via a trade. If you propose trades with fans from other teams it's virtually impossible to get the player you want UNLESS you considerably overpay.

Good thing the fans have literally zero input into actual ****ing hockey trades. If JR had posted on here on draft day with a poll and said "Hey guys guess what, I have a trade on the table, James Neal for Pat Hornqvist and Nick Spaling, please vote now!", what kind of percentage do you think you'd be looking at for/against? I'd guess no less than 80% veto that trade at the time. But guess what, an actual GM made that trade, so who gives a **** what some schmuck on another team's forum thinks his guy is worth??

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Why does JR get until the start of the season. And Shero got excuses for years?

Shero got Neal and Kunitz. Rutherford traded one of those. In spite of the owners' mandate to get more help for Sid and Geno, we have one less elite winger than we had to start the summer, and like the majority of non-Pens fans looking to rationalize the return I'm not convinced we're a better team after that trade.

On top of that, we had the cap space and fit for Kulemin here that would have given us size, grit, and established chemistry to assuage Malkin after the Neal trade. Rutherford opted for a defenseman instead. If he thinks he can do better via trade, great. If he can't, it's a problem.

I want the roster figured out by the start of the season as well. But I'm not the one constantly comparing him to Shero. If he takes a little longer b/c he wants to see how Maatta's doing before he makes his move, I'm not going to call him out. But I'm sure you will.

Where was all this rope when we led the league in man-games lost last year?

Ehrhoff was a better signing than Kulemin. If he signed Rob Scuderi over him, then yes, you'd have a point. But Ehrhoff is far more of an impact player than Kule here.

I don't think it makes us a better team if that's how we enter the season. Whatever happened to putting Crosby and Malkin in position to succeed?

Now we just tell them to get over it like JR says, I guess.

As for Neal. This team won't need him to win regular season games. And I'm failing to see how Neal was a difference maker in big games in the playoffs. Specifically, elimination games.

I'm failing to see how Hornqvist has been any better. Or even as good.

Right now it's a judgement based purely on style rather than results.

 

[Riptide]

If the Pens offered Despres+BB I think they would take that and run considering that Ryan seems unlikely to re-sign there.

At the deadline? Perhaps. But they wouldn't be taking Dupuis which was also part of that, and they wouldn't take that deal today. And us giving them Despres and BB would still be stupid without Ryan having agreed to an extension.

 

[IcedCapp]

Not at all FA related, but totally Penguins related.

https://twitter.com/mc79hockey/status/486554455392141312

That blue dot at the top right?

Tanne...

Sidney Crosby

 

[WhatsaMaatta]

Why does JR get until the start of the season. And Shero got excuses for years?

I want the roster figured out by the start of the season as well. But I'm not the one constantly comparing him to Shero. If he takes a little longer b/c he wants to see how Maatta's doing before he makes his move, I'm not going to call him out. But I'm sure you will.

Ehrhoff was a better signing than Kulemin. If he signed Rob Scuderi over him, then yes, you'd have a point. But Ehrhoff is far more of an impact player than Kule here.

As for Neal. This team won't need him to win regular season games. And I'm failing to see how Neal was a difference maker in big games in the playoffs. Specifically, elimination games.

Yeah, it was never going to take one offseason for this roster to get fixed. It takes time to get the right players on your roster, and even more time when you haven't drafted any wingers, and the defensemen you drafted aren't being utilized. The Pens will make the playoffs, of course, but they are still a ways from being on the same level as Chicago or LA or even Boston.

 

[billybudd]

Not at all FA related, but totally Penguins related.

https://twitter.com/mc79hockey/status/486554455392141312

That blue dot at the top right?

Tanne...

Sidney Crosby

I assume that's Gladams on the bottom left, unless one of those dots is Rinaldo.

 

[Dupree13]

At the deadline? Perhaps. But they wouldn't be taking Dupuis which was also part of that, and they wouldn't take that deal today. And us giving them Despres and BB would still be stupid without Ryan having agreed to an extension.

Well if I were them I would take it. I think it'd be a nice haul for them. But I'm with you that it would be a bad move for the Pens with no extension, the exact same reason why I would like it for Ottawa.

 

[IcedCapp]

I assume that's Gladams on the bottom left, unless one of those dots is Rinaldo.

I actually wouldn't be at all surprised if the top two left dots and the bottom two right dots all belonged to the same team.

 

[Ugene Magic]

As was his Rocket Man.

And. there's. this.

 

[billybudd]

Yeah, it was never going to take one offseason for this roster to get fixed. It takes time to get the right players on your roster, and even more time when you haven't drafted any wingers, and the defensemen you drafted aren't being utilized. The Pens will make the playoffs, of course, but they are still a ways from being on the same level as Chicago or LA or even Boston.

I'm not sure Boston's in that pack any more. Chara's getting dangerously close to 40 and over the last 2 years they've turned Horton into Iginla into nothing and Seguin and Peverely into Eriksson's IR spot and Smith. I like Eriksson and Smith, but they're not Seguin, even when taken together and Peverely, when healthy, is woefully underrated.

New power in the East is probably Tampa, assuming they don't start getting the "this team's soft, beat their *****" treatment.

 

[Riptide]

Good thing the fans have literally zero input into actual ****ing hockey trades. If JR had posted on here on draft day with a poll and said "Hey guys guess what, I have a trade on the table, James Neal for Pat Hornqvist and Nick Spaling, please vote now!", what kind of percentage do you think you'd be looking at for/against? I'd guess no less than 80% veto that trade at the time. But guess what, an actual GM made that trade, so who gives a **** what some schmuck on another team's forum thinks his guy is worth??

Not quite. Shortly after the trade was made I started a poll with 5 options (love it, not bad, fair trade, needed more, awful). 67.2% of 125 voters fell in the last 2 spots. Poll HERE

But I agree with what you're saying about real NHL value, and HF value.