Franson is 3-4 years older, has likely hit his best, Gardiner still has tons of potential, whether or not he'll every hit it. I do really like Franson this year, and I have been hard on him in the past. Gardiner leaves you always wanting more. I, personally, am starting to see the value in trading him. My only thing is 1 of them has to go, at this point idc who. We are going to need some cap relief, and that 6th spot going to 1 of our rooks would be great.
Franson is 3-4 years older, has likely hit his best, Gardiner still has tons of potential, whether or not he'll every hit it. I do really like Franson this year, and I have been hard on him in the past. Gardiner leaves you always wanting more. I, personally, am starting to see the value in trading him. My only thing is 1 of them has to go, at this point idc who. We are going to need some cap relief, and that 6th spot going to 1 of our rooks would be great.
Daisy Jane
everything is gonna be okay!
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Again - this is the question:
Are you prepared to pay Cody Franson 5 million dollars for X years? If the goal of the team is trending upwards - is Cody Franson the best option to be on the #1 pairing night in and night out (or even on the 2nd) where that spot should be going to Rielly (to start giving him tougher minutes and to push him) Percy (ditto) and other rookies?
it's not just 'trade Franson' for the sake of trading Franson. He has his offensive positiveness but he has issues and truthfully - I don't trust contract year numbers and I don't know if he'll be better in a few years down the line.
Are you prepared to pay Cody Franson 5 million dollars for X years? If the goal of the team is trending upwards - is Cody Franson the best option to be on the #1 pairing night in and night out (or even on the 2nd) where that spot should be going to Rielly (to start giving him tougher minutes and to push him) Percy (ditto) and other rookies?
it's not just 'trade Franson' for the sake of trading Franson. He has his offensive positiveness but he has issues and truthfully - I don't trust contract year numbers and I don't know if he'll be better in a few years down the line.
The Winter Soldier
Registered User
- Apr 4, 2011
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27 year players have peaked?
Franson has been really good this year, he still makes the occasional brain dead play, but it has been far less than last season, the season before he was really good also. He is easily the most productive D man for us the past 3 seasons.
Gardiner looks flashier, and may win style points, but he never has been as good offensively than Franson. Franson also possesses something Gardiner may never have, strength to win one on one battles, and he hits too.
Again, if we can get him for under 5M in the 4.5 to 4.75 range, he is easily a better cap hit than Gardiner at 4.05.
I never said it was because of his age that he peaked, I just feel as a player he has, just like you feel that Kadri will never become a #1, does a 24 yo peak? They both have their perks, when Franson messes up he tends to mess up harder imo due to footspeed.
Maplebeasts
I See Demons!!!!!
There is no question in my mind if Franson wasn't slow as all hell, he would be a great defenseman. As it stands right now, he is pretty good and he has no footspeed. That being said we should move him while his value is high, so if I was Nonis I would figure out a deal now and pull the trigger when he shows signs of regression. With his current play and age, we could probably fish out a second or late first round pick.
The Winter Soldier
Registered User
- Apr 4, 2011
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I would be more concerned about who is the smarter defenceman rather than who is faster. We should keep the smarter one, regardless of who is faster or who is stronger.
STOP LOOKING AT THE NUMBERS AND LOOK AT HOW HE PLAYED TONIGHT!
Franson was, hands down, the worst defenceman of the night with the amount of giveaways he caughed up. I mean come on I can't be the only one who noticed this!?!
He coughed up the puck on the PP that resulted in a chance on net! How am I the only one bringing this up? Sure he scored the only goal but his mistakes took away Leaf chances. I honestly believe he should be benched and let Percy play tomorrow (Saturday).
Franson was, hands down, the worst defenceman of the night with the amount of giveaways he caughed up. I mean come on I can't be the only one who noticed this!?!
He coughed up the puck on the PP that resulted in a chance on net! How am I the only one bringing this up? Sure he scored the only goal but his mistakes took away Leaf chances. I honestly believe he should be benched and let Percy play tomorrow (Saturday).
I'm totally agreed. He was the top pairing and playing against the top player in the league. I can see that he was overthinking and took the split second to make the decision. It ended up he caught the puck a lot in the defensive zone. The more he is going to play the top pairing and we will be able to see his defence weakness. I don't see how the Leafs will offer 4 - 5 millions multi-years contract with him.
No, they really don't. You can trust whatever you like, if you want to be wrong.
Scouting eyes, however flawed they may be, at least take into consideration a multitude of factors and how they come together to produce specific results. Your so-called "advanced" stats are just overly-simplistic approximations without context of a single non-regulated factor that is pretty much entirely about context.
Come back to me when you actually have something that means something.
Franson sucked last year. Deal with it. If your stats don't say that, fix your stats.
Franson is, and always will be a good #4D. He has size, offensive skills, hits, and can block shots. However, he turns over the puck a lot and doesn't have much speed. He is a serviceable D and is doing a heck of a job in a role he isn't suited for. Sure the guy has flaws, but lets be honest, if you gave him better foot speed and a smarter defensive IQ, then he would have everything and be a bonafide #1 like Suter or Weber and would be making $7million+. However, that isn't who he is, and a player like him is worth $3.5-$4million in today's NHL. His benefits outweigh his issues, and he would strive in a bottom pairing role with top PP minutes and 2nd PK minutes on a team like Boston or St. Louis. The bigger question is whether we need him long term enough to overpay him by $1-$1.5 million, because thats what he will get. My opinion is no, and only because of cap constraints.
As long as we can move Jake's contract, I don't see an issue with signing him for longer term @ $5M per.
p.l.f.
use the force
Franson is gone after this season, he'll want way more than the Leafs would be willing to give
What he does offer this season is a capable stopgap to prevent them from rushing Rielly or Gardiner.
Ideally one of the two will be ready to replace Franson on the top pair next season
But Phaneuf-Polak would do ok if not so i see no future for Franson here
What he does offer this season is a capable stopgap to prevent them from rushing Rielly or Gardiner.
Ideally one of the two will be ready to replace Franson on the top pair next season
But Phaneuf-Polak would do ok if not so i see no future for Franson here
Daisy Jane
everything is gonna be okay!
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all i know is. this is what probably is going to happen
1: the Leafs overpay to keep him. (and they will, because -again, Cody Franson has all the leverage. UFA, RHD, Powerplay Specialist, very weak UFA-Defense Class).
here is a taste of who is available:
Mike Green
Sergei Gonchar
Paul Martin
Lubomir Visnovsky
Andrej Mezaros
Zbynek Michalek
Christian Erhoff
Marc Staal
Francois Beauchemin
Johnny Oduya
Johnny Boychuck
Cody Franson
out of that list, only he & Staal are the youngest (Green is 29). Franson is going to get paid. right now, Chicago is sacrificing anything and everything that isn't nailed down that the cap raises because they are so utterly and completely screwed if it doesn't, and Quennville loves Oduya (which is why Leddy was the one who got traded), so he can be a UFA. Considering the Staals want to play together, Mark is probably going to go to Carolina for a song. which means, technically. the UFA-D market is headlined by Franson, Oduya and Green. Maybe Beauchamin/Martin as well.
out of that list, simply because of the points they produce, Franson/Green will get "are you kidding me numbers."
I don't want the Leafs paying him that simply because he can put up points on the net.
2: the Leafs are a speedy, speedy team. Cody Franson is not. Period. Interactif said he'd rather have a 'smart & slow defenseman, than fast and not so smart one' (paraphase) - I'd rather have a smart + fast defenseman). Franson can get burned by speed, and sometimes his decisions aren't the best. now if this can be addressed with Barb Lessons -then fine, but if not. that is a concern moving forward. you get slower as you age - he's 27 and he struggles now.
3: once again: is Cody Franson the guy you want to be paying 5++ million (even if you move Jake out) (at his age, and his foot speed and other issues) to be on your ultimately bottom pairing. let's stop and think about it:
pairing one:
Dion Phaneuf--Morgan Rielly. <<---- that is/should be how it ends up in the next 2-3 years. next year, Morgan is going to be tested with top pairing minutes, right? we can agree with this?
pairing two
_____ --______
this one is up in the air. we'll work on the premise that Jake is traded. We probably will assume that Percy makes the team full time next year and they'll pencil him top 4 (to challenge) slash pairing three minutes. we're also going to assume that the Leafs don't go after Staal, Odyua, Beauchamin or Martin, or Boychuck.
that pairing should
Robidas & Percy. It gives Percy a chance to be with a steady partner and someone to mentor him. (I am giving Robidas a flyer this year because of his leg. chances are after the third year, we're not going to tender him an extension)
third pairing:
Polak and either Franson OR whomever makes it out of camp
Leafs are in LOVE with Loov. (which is why they fought so hard with MODO to release him). Granberg is progressing nicely, who knows about Finn. (hopefully he's getting Barb lessons too).
you can argue that Franson + Robidas could be together.
people always go well 'look at Franson's partner' if his number/turnovers etc are bad which means y'all don't want him to 'mentor' people (because his numbers were brutal with Jake & Morgan).
and again - this is an assumption that the Leafs don't go after ANYONE via RFA (doubt it ) or UFA. (and Boychuk, Martin and Odyua - i'd take the flyer on Staal) could be tempting.. (which all depends on what they decide to do with Jake).
I don't know - if Cody's stats + lack of speed + where he'd ultimately end up. is worth 5++ for uber years.
1: the Leafs overpay to keep him. (and they will, because -again, Cody Franson has all the leverage. UFA, RHD, Powerplay Specialist, very weak UFA-Defense Class).
here is a taste of who is available:
Mike Green
Sergei Gonchar
Paul Martin
Lubomir Visnovsky
Andrej Mezaros
Zbynek Michalek
Christian Erhoff
Marc Staal
Francois Beauchemin
Johnny Oduya
Johnny Boychuck
Cody Franson
out of that list, only he & Staal are the youngest (Green is 29). Franson is going to get paid. right now, Chicago is sacrificing anything and everything that isn't nailed down that the cap raises because they are so utterly and completely screwed if it doesn't, and Quennville loves Oduya (which is why Leddy was the one who got traded), so he can be a UFA. Considering the Staals want to play together, Mark is probably going to go to Carolina for a song. which means, technically. the UFA-D market is headlined by Franson, Oduya and Green. Maybe Beauchamin/Martin as well.
out of that list, simply because of the points they produce, Franson/Green will get "are you kidding me numbers."
I don't want the Leafs paying him that simply because he can put up points on the net.
2: the Leafs are a speedy, speedy team. Cody Franson is not. Period. Interactif said he'd rather have a 'smart & slow defenseman, than fast and not so smart one' (paraphase) - I'd rather have a smart + fast defenseman). Franson can get burned by speed, and sometimes his decisions aren't the best. now if this can be addressed with Barb Lessons -then fine, but if not. that is a concern moving forward. you get slower as you age - he's 27 and he struggles now.
3: once again: is Cody Franson the guy you want to be paying 5++ million (even if you move Jake out) (at his age, and his foot speed and other issues) to be on your ultimately bottom pairing. let's stop and think about it:
pairing one:
Dion Phaneuf--Morgan Rielly. <<---- that is/should be how it ends up in the next 2-3 years. next year, Morgan is going to be tested with top pairing minutes, right? we can agree with this?
pairing two
_____ --______
this one is up in the air. we'll work on the premise that Jake is traded. We probably will assume that Percy makes the team full time next year and they'll pencil him top 4 (to challenge) slash pairing three minutes. we're also going to assume that the Leafs don't go after Staal, Odyua, Beauchamin or Martin, or Boychuck.
that pairing should
Robidas & Percy. It gives Percy a chance to be with a steady partner and someone to mentor him. (I am giving Robidas a flyer this year because of his leg. chances are after the third year, we're not going to tender him an extension)
third pairing:
Polak and either Franson OR whomever makes it out of camp
Leafs are in LOVE with Loov. (which is why they fought so hard with MODO to release him). Granberg is progressing nicely, who knows about Finn. (hopefully he's getting Barb lessons too).
you can argue that Franson + Robidas could be together.
people always go well 'look at Franson's partner' if his number/turnovers etc are bad which means y'all don't want him to 'mentor' people (because his numbers were brutal with Jake & Morgan).
and again - this is an assumption that the Leafs don't go after ANYONE via RFA (doubt it ) or UFA. (and Boychuk, Martin and Odyua - i'd take the flyer on Staal) could be tempting.. (which all depends on what they decide to do with Jake).
I don't know - if Cody's stats + lack of speed + where he'd ultimately end up. is worth 5++ for uber years.
Even though I have been a Franson supporter and wanted the Leafs to try and lock him up at 3-4 years for like $3.5-$3.75 in the off-season, which very few were in favour of, I don't want to give him $5+. Too much for what he brings to the table. I wish the Leafs had of stepped up prior though and we would likely be looking at a guy at a good cap hit, who puts up points and his trade value would even be better.
I don't disagree with a lot of what you said, but there is a lot of IF's as well in your scenarios. The Leafs (and fans) have to also realize that every D prospect is not going to work out or that some are just not any better than others or even Franson on the overall. We may end up with 1 possible first pairing (Rielly) and a bunch of 4-7 guys. We really don't know what their development will end up, even if they look promising at the moment. Too many young D look good at the start, then fall off dramitically.
In Franson, we know what we have...Finn, Percy, Grandberg, Gardiner, Loov, etc may never end up better than #4's at the most. The Leafs biggest mistake was not making any commitment in the past to Franson or he would already be on a good contract at a good hit and have even better trade value(or we wouldn't even have to worry about UFA because it would still be another year or two away).
Purity*
Registered User
- Jan 29, 2010
- 8,446
- 1
LOL. Forget about how bad Franson was last year already?
This is double standard in full effect. Gardiner is 3 years younger, produced two less points than Franson last year despite Franson getting all the top-pairing PP time, and had a MUCH lower GA/60 and +/-.
But it's okay man, I know how you roll. You will take the smaller sample size that fits your agenda because of your raging hate-on for Gardiner. I will take Gardiner at 4 million over Franson at 4.75 million 10/10 times, just my opinion though.
Daisy Jane
everything is gonna be okay!
- Jul 2, 2009
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oh for sure - there are a TONNE of ifs.
so i'm not committed to it at all. but i mean reality speaking, Franson isn't going to sign early. which means we're looking minimum 5 million for XX years. so all my scenarios could be way off base (totally owning that). but....i don't know. maybe it works out in the end.
oh for sure - there are a TONNE of ifs.
so i'm not committed to it at all. but i mean reality speaking, Franson isn't going to sign early. which means we're looking minimum 5 million for XX years. so all my scenarios could be way off base (totally owning that). but....i don't know. maybe it works out in the end.
There is always a tonne of IF's no matter what.
I do think as fans though, we have to stop constantly planning our future only around guys we are trying to develop...we have no Crosby, Toews etc in the system. We have one top end guy that seems to be on track...Rielly.
I really don't think Leivo, Finn, Grandberg, Loov etc are game changing talent. Could be wrong.
We have fans that are excited about the fact that in a couple years we could be
Rielly Phaneuf
Gardiner Percy
Finn Grandberg
That scares the hell out of me that we are planning on all our prospects to become #1-6 NHL d-men and we think that is the best route. Some will, some won't pan out, and some will be a toss up between each other but not a enough to build around both. We need some vets that we know what we have and develop guys to play with them or eventually replace them as they age. And keep the cycle going.imo
Daisy Jane
everything is gonna be okay!
- Jul 2, 2009
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There is always a tonne of IF's no matter what.
I do think as fans though, we have to stop constantly planning our future only around guys we are trying to develop...we have no Crosby, Toews etc in the system. We have one top end guy that seems to be on track...Rielly.
I really don't think Leivo, Finn, Grandberg, Loov etc are game changing talent. Could be wrong.
We have fans that are excited about the fact that in a couple years we could be
Rielly Phaneuf
Gardiner Percy
Finn Grandberg
That scares the hell out of me that we are planning on all our prospects to become #1-6 NHL d-men and we think that is the best route. Some will, some won't pan out, and some will be a toss up between each other but not a enough to build around both. We need some vets that we know what we have and develop guys to play with them or eventually replace them as they age. And keep the cycle going.imo
i agree. I try not to. (and there will be trades and stuff)
I guess my main point will be - Cody Franson with everything he has to offer. (even if he has a blip fantastic year) is not worth 5 million dollars. And if he gets that, and remains on the team - it won't be pretty. If i'm wrong, I'll take my crow, baked. but he's not worth it. let that be someone else's financial mistake
if Franson hits 40 pts this year were not getting him for under 5M so thats what people should be deciding
we pay Clarkson 5.2, Phaneuf 7. I can see Franson asking for 5.5-6 and some team will give him it
we pay Clarkson 5.2, Phaneuf 7. I can see Franson asking for 5.5-6 and some team will give him it
I agree with your point. Cody is not worth $5+. At around $4 or under with some term he would have been good value and a guy who has trade value. At $5+, he has little trade value.
We should have locked him up like we did Gunnarsson instead of the 1 year, 1 year, 1 year crap the Leafs did and we wouldn't be worried about what Cody will be asking for. I believe, could be wrong, if Nonis had of offered him 3-4 years at around $3.5-$3.75 in the off-season, Franson would have at least considered it , if not taken it. Definitely would have 2 off-season ago.
how much we paying Gardiner to play on the 3rd pairing? And no one is complaining about that..or atleast I haven't heard it
Are you implying that Corsi predicts limited turnovers/bad pinches?
I'm an 'advanced stats' guy all the way but what the **** is this ****
9 point game streak for Franson! He ranks 6th in scoring for defencemen in the League. We should vote for him to play in the All-Star game!
