Franson - Is it Sustainable????

[thewave]

I actually liked the trade. We needed what Polak brings badly. It just pisses me off how it is us that has to choke up extra assets regardless of how minor they are. A swap would have been more than fair. It's just incompetency on management's part, you can't ask so desperate or you always overpay. There's this, there's clarkson, etc.

I am right there with you. Truer words have never been spoken, testify.

 

[Hocks95*]

Gunner is a much better defender. I don't understand what's hard to understand. You are right we overpaid for Polak. I don't understand why all the tears.

no tears. I casually mentioned how I was angry at this trade at first but Polak is proving me wrong. Then that was proceeded to an angry poster bashing me telling me how I don't understand hockey

 

[Ace88*]

and same can be said about yours. You do realize after breaking a bone you loose a lot of mobility regardless of what bone you break?? You do realize Gunnarsson has played 91% of all games over the last 3 seasons?? so much for it being constant. I've actually watched the game and he's been more than good for sure. But keep bashing bashing bashing that's all you seem to be doing right now. I never even said that I don't like Polak but simply Nonis always overpaying shows how incompetent he truly is. Sorry if that made you cry and you had to get all defensive

You know, no, it really can't. All you see is logic and rational thought. Robidas hasn't lost much mobility. He's still got quickness and some agility. That's an example of a properly rehabbed injury, which is easier to do because a bone is not a complex joint filled with muscles and ligaments all entangled together.

It doesn't matter if Gunnarsson's played 91% (actually it's 88.7% to be precise) of the games over the last 3 seasons, which i don't know why you're bringing up because i never said he's injury prone lol. The fact is that it's the type of nagging injury which can seriously hamper a player. It's been admitted by Gunnarsson and coaching in years past that he's playing through injury (he had a particularly rough stretch of games a couple years back due to the hip).

Im not bashing anything. Im calling a spade a spade. Nonis didn't overpay for Polak given Gunnarsson's injury risk. Im sorry if you feel that way because you'd be wrong. St Louis assumed all the risk.

And yes you made cry, and cry hard. You mean poopy silly nanny.

 

[thewave]

no tears. I casually mentioned how I was angry at this trade at first but Polak is proving me wrong. Then that was proceeded to an angry poster bashing me telling me how I don't understand hockey

You understand hockey just fine. Don't worry, I am a Demi-hockey-god in disguise.

Gunner is a far better player. We needed a Polak type of guy but not at that cost.

 

[Hocks95*]

You know, no, it really can't. All you see is logic and rational thought. Robidas hasn't lost much mobility. He's still got quickness and some agility. That's an example of a properly rehabbed injury.

It doesn't matter if Gunnarsson's played 91% (actually it's 88.7% to be precise) of the games over the last 3 seasons, which i don't know why you're bringing up because i never said he's injury prone lol. The fact is that it's the type of nagging injury which can seriously hamper a player. It's been admitted by Gunnarsson and coaching in years past that he's playing through injury (he had a particularly rough stretch of games a couple years back due to the hip).

Im not bashing anything. Im calling a spade a spade. Nonis didn't overpay for Polak given Gunnarsson's injury risk. Im sorry if you feel that way because you'd be wrong.

And yes you made cry, and cry hard. You mean poopy silly nanny.

no 91%is correct.
(80+37+76)/(82+48+82)=0.91
Sure he might have played through injury but he played well for us. Polak was considered to be a bottom 2 dman gunnarsson was at least a top3-4. Choking a pick up and keeping 200k is nothing but incompetency. The health difference supposedly is made up by their values on the market regardless of how true they are. I don't know why you feel like you have to give definitive "you'd be wrong" statements when it's debatable at best. That's why we overpaid. Sure Filip Forsberg may be worht a first rounder now but when washington traded him that's not what he was worth on the open market. Same thing here. Gunnarsson was considered the better player and we were the ones choking picks and salary. All I am saying. Nonis is very incompetent unfortunately.

 

[Hocks95*]

given that I am happy with the trade and Polak. But please go ahead and proceed to tell me how much of an illiterate hockey fan I am simply because we disagree and how I know nothing of the game rather than agreeing to disagree. Classical bitter ways eh?

 

[thewave]

no 91%is correct.
(80+37+76)/(82+48+82)=0.91
Sure he might have played through injury but he played well for us. Polak was considered to be a bottom 2 dman gunnarsson was at least a top3-4. Choking a pick up and keeping 200k is nothing but incompetency. The health difference supposedly is made up by their values on the market regardless of how true they are. I don't know why you feel like you have to give definitive "you'd be wrong" statements when it's debatable at best. That's why we overpaid. Sure Filip Forsberg may be worht a first rounder now but when washington traded him that's not what he was worth on the open market. Same thing here. Gunnarsson was considered the better player and we were the ones choking picks and salary. All I am saying. Nonis is very incompetent unfortunately.

I honestly don't believe Nonis knew his value. I think Nonis opened discussions and they just milked him. That's what I think.

 

[Hocks95*]

You understand hockey just fine. Don't worry, I am a Demi-hockey-god in disguise.

Gunner is a far better player. We needed a Polak type of guy but not at that cost.

haha thanks man. At this point I don't even care but it just shows incompetency on part of management. All I am saying.

 

[Hocks95*]

I honestly don't believe Nonis knew his value. I think Nonis opened discussions and they just milked him. That's what I think.

meh fair point. If Nonis does something this stupid with Franson I might just shoot myself lmao.

You know Franson + 1 milllion salary retained +4th round pick for a 3rd round pick.

shoot me lol.

 

[Ace88*]

no 91%is correct.
(80+37+76)/(82+48+82)=0.91
Sure he might have played through injury but he played well for us. Polak was considered to be a bottom 2 dman gunnarsson was at least a top3-4. Choking a pick up and keeping 200k is nothing but incompetency. The health difference supposedly is made up by their values on the market regardless of how true they are. I don't know why you feel like you have to give definitive "you'd be wrong" statements when it's debatable at best. That's why we overpaid. Sure Filip Forsberg may be worht a first rounder now but when washington traded him that's not what he was worth on the open market. Same thing here. Gunnarsson was considered the better player and we were the ones choking picks and salary. All I am saying. Nonis is very incompetent unfortunately.

I was talking about 3 full seasons. Convenient you left out his season of 68 games to suit your narrative. And no, while he was playing through injury he was not very good, there were threads about it and all kinds of folks wondering, "what the hell is wrong with carl gunnarsson?" You're wrong again there.

Polak WAS considered to be a bottom pair dman, but had untapped upside in St Louis. But what has he been for us? A very good minute munching, physical-minded 2nd pairing guy. Tell me, who would you like to select with that 4th rounder we gave up? Oh, you don't know any players in that range? Then why are you so upset? Keeping 200K is so far beyond inconsequential that i have no idea why you're so irate over it.

Filip Forsberg's worth on the open market is irrelevant because he wasn't traded on "the open market." He was traded very unexpectedly to what ostensibly is the only team that knew he was available. Im not sure you understand how trade values work, my friend, and that's not bashing you. Again, just calling it how i see it. Gunnarsson may have been considered the better player, but is he the better player right now? Hardly. Nonis is apprehensive, sometimes ambivalent. But i would not say incompetent. Mike Milbury was incompetent. Paul Holmgren was incompetent. Dave Nonis is not the best GM in the league or anything but he is far from incompetent, especially based on this trade which has greatly benefitted us.

 

[Hocks95*]

I was talking about 3 full seasons. Convenient you left out his season of 68 games to suit your narrative. And no, while he was playing through injury he was not very good, there were threads about it and all kinds of folks wondering, "what the hell is wrong with carl gunnarsson?" You're wrong again there.

Polak WAS considered to be a bottom pair dman, but what has he been for us? A very good minute munching, physical-minded 2nd pairing guy. Tell me, who would you like to select with that 4th rounder we gave up? Oh, you don't know any players in that range? Then why are you so upset? Keeping 200K is so far beyond inconsequential that i have no idea why you're so irate over it.

Read the bolded bud. You're completely missing my point . I acknowledged he's been great for us. But read what I said take a step back and read what i said. HE WAS CONSIDERED A BOTTOM PAIRING. Gunnarson was considered top 2-4. I'm not even going to bother reading the rest of your post. Your making my point sort of as well. Based on their worths we choked up a pick and kept a small amount of a top2-4's salary to get a supposed bottom 2.

What the players have become is completely irrelevant to the incompetency management showed in that trade.

You need to stop. All you have done is bash and let's not forget you started this with your hateful speech. I will not get baited into another infraction.

 

[zeke]

He was good the year before last, in a sheltered 3rd pairing role. Never said he wasn't. In fact, in my first post, I said he was.

Last year he was garbage. That was evident by watching. "Advanced stats" don't change that.

I watched every Leafs game last year, thank you very much. I also do not place any significant value in +/-, especially not on its own. I actually had no idea what his +/- was last year, and only knew what it was this year because somebody just mentioned it.

actually, advanced stats do change that.

thing is, I have no reason to trust your scouting eye over the advanced stats.

and neither do you, actually.

 

[KuleminFan41]

Franson has been in a contract year the past 3 seasons.

It might be time for the fans on this board to eat some crow and admit that the biggest problem with Franson's game the last few years has been the people he's played with (Jake Gardiner, for the most part).

Sure, asking him to continue the same level of play through an 82 game season is probably ambitious, but put him on a 2nd pair with a reliable defenceman, and he'll be great.

His best season has been with Mark Fraser in a short season just 2 years ago. I mean come on, why should anyone be eating crow after only 14 games played? It's very early to be playing the "I told you so" card

 

[Ace88*]

Read the bolded bud. You're completely missing my point . I acknowledged he's been great for us. But read what I said take a step back and read what i said. HE WAS CONSIDERED A BOTTOM PAIRING. Gunnarson was considered top 2-4. I'm not even going to bother reading the rest of your post. Your making my point sort of as well. Based on their worths we choked up a pick and kept a small amount of a top2-4's salary to get a supposed bottom 2.

What the players have become is completely irrelevant to the incompetency management showed in that trade.

You need to stop. All you have done is bash and let's not forget you started this with your hateful speech. I will not get baited into another infraction.

I haven't bashed once, and there's no hateful speech here lol. Im not baiting you into anything. If you can't control yourself and have an adult discussion, that's not my fault. Literally all i have done is casually and calmly point out how and why you are wrong. I have not missed your point at all.

Did it ever occur to you that Nonis and friends saw something more than a 5/6 in Polak? He is playing 2nd, borderline 1st pairing minutes and doing a very good job of it. Is there a reason you refuse to believe that management thought he could step in right away and perform to this level? Why else would they trade for him?

What the players have become has EVERYTHING to do with the cost given to acquire the asset. Especially since it's pretty clear management would rather go with the need-filling sure thing rather than stick with the chronic injury risk in a position of strength. It was a smart trade then and it's a smarter trade now.

 

[Hocks95*]

I haven't bashed once, and there's no hateful speech here lol. Im not baiting you into anything. If you can't control yourself and have an adult discussion, that's not my fault. Literally all i have done is casually and calmly point out how and why you are wrong. I have not missed your point at all.

Did it ever occur to you that Nonis and friends saw something more than a 5/6 in Polak? He is playing 2nd, borderline 1st pairing minutes and doing a very good job of it. Is there a reason you refuse to believe that management thought he could step in right away and perform to this level? Why else would they trade for him?

What the players have become has EVERYTHING to do with the cost given to acquire the asset. Especially since it's pretty clear management would rather go with the need-filling sure thing rather than stick with the chronic injury risk in a position of strength. It was a smart trade then and it's a smarter trade now.

haha you gotta be kidding me why don't you read your first reply? I am still wondering if you got an infraction for that. I get infractions for the smallest of things. Just because I am having a rough day and know if I reply harshly I'll get an infraction doesn't mean you can take liberties on me.
Nonis may have saw something more but that was not his value in the market. It was still a bottom six. Gunnarson's was a top2-4. Sure he might be proving to be a stud but that's besides the point. They saw a guy that hits and creates energy and can clear the net. The very fact that at the time Gunnarsson had more value and we were the ones that ended up choking a pick and salary shows that nonis can't negotiate for shi*

 

[Hocks95*]

the fact that he overpayed for a third/4th line grinder doesn't exactly help his cause either. As I said I am not pissed about this trade. I am actually pretty happy about it. However at the time based on market values at the time you would expect better negotiating tactics than showing yourself as super desperate so that others take advatange of you

 

[Super Mega]

Franson is a guy I wanted to move in the offseason but I will admit his play has been great. Points aside (I think its easy to cloud a defensemen's value with points) the big thing for me is his defensive plays and reads are much better.

Great active stick in the NZ, he still isn't as physical as he could be but that component is still there.

I just remember last year you could almost guarantee at least 1 bonehead move that would directly or indirectly lead to a GA. Thats not this years Franson

The question now is do you keep him? What do we think he could sign for realistically? His contract is always the biggest concern.

 

[Hocks95*]

Franson is a guy I wanted to move in the offseason but I will admit his play has been great. Points aside (I think its easy to cloud a defensemen's value with points) the big thing for me is his defensive plays and reads are much better.

Great active stick in the NZ, he still isn't as physical as he could be but that component is still there.

I just remember last year you could almost guarantee at least 1 bonehead move that would directly or indirectly lead to a GA. Thats not this years Franson

The question now is do you keep him? What do we think he could sign for realistically? His contract is always the biggest concern.

if he used his 6'5 frame more and was more mean I would definitely keep him. He hits a lot but doesn't have that edge to his game. I mean today he should manhandle crosby and throw huge hits on him like boyle and the rags did in the playoffs but I know he won't. He's just going to go out there and play his game

 

[diceman934]

There is a thread on the board, about why the Leafs are not successful. That OP said trading away youth. Agreed.

The other is probably trading away good players...like Franson. How about we keep him?

I would rather keep him as well....I just do not see the Leafs doing so unless we can get him signed before the trade deadline and I do not see that happening. He will easily get 5M per for 5 years or more during free agency. I do not think the Leafs will be willing to pay him this much and think that they will trade him before the deadline.

 

[Hocks95*]

I would rather keep him as well....I just do not see the Leafs doing so unless we can get him signed before the trade deadline and I do not see that happening. He will easily get 5M per for 5 years or more during free agency. I do not think the Leafs will be willing to pay him this much and think that they will trade him before the deadline.

I think we will try to sign him at free agency but then the oilers or panthers or another bottom feeder will offer a better offer and we will loose Franson for not even a bag of pucks. I want Franson resigned too if it's not over 5 million.

I think that's realistic. Let's be honest, we're probably going to loose one of Santorelli or Winnik. I'm guessing Winnik. We also lose David booth I hope so. Marlies I am sure some of em can fill his shoes /broken feet easily.

However Ashton Kadri Bernier Kozun Panik will all be RFA's. I like Luups but really think we need to trade him as well for this team to move forward. We can get a 2nd or conditional first for luups imo if he plays well this year.

Without removing Lupul I don't understand how we resign Franson, all our RFA's and hopefully keep one of Santo/Winnik.

here's to hoping no one pulls off an o'reilly on us.

 

[thewave]

Franson is the real deal baby! 1B 2014/2015 respect. Bring us a 1st rounder $Franson

 

[Jacquestrapless]

Yeah he's gone at the TD. At the rate he's playing, he will fetch a lot on his next contract. He will also be very valuable to any team needing a "1st" pairing RHD PP specialist D-man, so hopefully we get a good prospect or a 1st.

 

[Al14]

Franson will price himself far too high! Get the best deal you can at the trade deadline!

 

[hockeygeek]

No chance Franson brings back a first. Zero. Maybe a high second or "b" prospect

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Franson has 11 points, is +6

Gardiner has 4 points is -3

Franson plays against top quality comp

Garidiner doesn't.

If we can get Franson for 4.5-4.75 M per, I do not understand why people want to move him in favour of a soft D man like Gardiner?