Frédérik Gauthier

[mikebel111*]

I would say this is a very fair post. I have Lazar pegged as a #2C on a good team. On a great team, he could be a great #3C. He has offence and defence to his game which is something that is very attractive.

I keep hearing Gauthier is going to be defensive beast. At the Worlds we didn't see this, or I didn't. Now people are going to say I am being negative again and I am picking on him. But I don't see anything special in his defensive game that would make me say Bob Gainey.

He's responsible defensively, he tries hard, he is a big lumbering worker. Nothing wrong with this, maybe I am wrong, but the hype of him being this defensive beast, I honestly haven't seen it. Maybe he is the type that grows on you or maybe we need to see more of him. I just doubt anyone has seen him enough to say this guy is Bergeron elite defensively. And I am not comparing him to bergeron, only his defence.

Really? He is elite in defensive side. You havent seen him enough or have a bias against him. He is great defensively.
Please watch him more. A little offense develops and watch out.

 

[FifthLine]

Really? He is elite in defensive side. You havent seen him enough or have a bias against him. He is great defensively.
Please watch him more. A little offense develops and watch out.

Point still stands, at this point Lazar is better then Gauthier.

 

[X66]

Point still stands, at this point Lazar is better then Gauthier.

So why didn't the Leafs draft Lazar?!?!?!?!?

OH yeah, because he wasn't even on the board when our pick came.

What a revelation.

Leafs need a player like Gauthier, so I'm not going to cry about the pick because it'll be a long time before you know if it was the right decision.

Leafs lack defensive forwards with size, it's a bonus that Gauthier is a good skater and has decent offensive potential. People that expected him to be an elite player or a something other than a solid top 9 center need to readjust their thinking.

For the first time in a long time the Leafs actually have decent center depth that complement each other in the system. Nylander, Gauthier and Verhaeghe.

 

[Nithoniniel]

i think you are overrating gauthier. we haven't seen the ceiling on komarov, we've only seen one season. santorelli was doing well in the top 6 in vancouver from reports.

to clarify my argument, he MIGHT be the bpa at 21, but in terms of offensive ceiling, shinkaruk or burkovsky have more potential. i personally thought he could be seen as bpa, because i also factor in the chances to make the nhl and his overall skillset, but by no means did i think he had the highest skill, especially when it comes to scoring touch.

I've seen plenty of Komarov and I think he has more to show than he did the last time around, and I loved him then. But you are not really arguing against me here. Santorelli has one half season where he was great, most of his NHL career he's been a fringe NHL player. Komarov has not shown that he can translate his game more than to be a top fourth liner.

While I'm positive and hopeful about the impact these guys have in the upcoming season, I wouldn't really mention them as great bottom six players. Komarov is a good one, Santorelli could be great if he could build on last season (much higher work rate than previously), but track record would be against you there. Gauthier looks bound to be a great one.

And no, he doesn't have the same offensive upside as Burakowsky and Shinkaruk. I'd probably guess he'll end up having more of an impact than at least the latter though.

There's another aspect of Gauthier that I keep thinking about. The CHL game is different from a pro game, things that work well in junior won't work at all at the NHL level. I'm not sure if you watched Drouin at Tampas camp after he was drafted? He did amazing things. They were also often things that were borderline idiotic to try at the NHL level, and I'm pretty sure that's a part of why he was sent back down. Now to come back to Gauthier, he produces offense in a way that is very consistent with how offense is created in NHL. He will cycle, he will make safe, smart passes at the right times. He won't do fancy moves near the bluelines to beat a man.

I think we could end up seeing his numbers drop off less than normal going from CHL to NHL. I also think he'd complement skilled offensive wingers that like to cycle very well.

I would say this is a very fair post. I have Lazar pegged as a #2C on a good team. On a great team, he could be a great #3C. He has offence and defence to his game which is something that is very attractive.

I keep hearing Gauthier is going to be defensive beast. At the Worlds we didn't see this, or I didn't. Now people are going to say I am being negative again and I am picking on him. But I don't see anything special in his defensive game that would make me say Bob Gainey.

He's responsible defensively, he tries hard, he is a big lumbering worker. Nothing wrong with this, maybe I am wrong, but the hype of him being this defensive beast, I honestly haven't seen it. Maybe he is the type that grows on you or maybe we need to see more of him. I just doubt anyone has seen him enough to say this guy is Bergeron elite defensively. And I am not comparing him to bergeron, only his defence.

Thinking Bob Gainey would be setting yourself up for disappointment, but I know you didn't mean it that way.

Gauthier has excellent positional sense, reads the play very well and has a very active stick. He's also good along the boards. The thing he lacks defensively right now is some intensity, be a bit more of a puck hound. If he gets that, then he can be the type that just hunts the puck without getting himself out of play and also has the skill to steal and turn possession.

Since I've written a long post talking him up, I'll notice what I see as his drawbacks as well for balance. He lacks some intensity, as I've mentioned. This goes on both sides of the rink. His skating is a case of strengths and weaknesses, there is room for improvement there. His shot is an outright weakness that he needs to work heavily on, or he won't be a threat at the NHL level and the goaltenders won't have to respect that. He also has a propensity for choosing the safe play a bit too often. He seems very able to be a great playmaker, but he doesn't take that responsibility enough.

At this point, I'm seeing a 35 point #3C who'll be our best defensive player, and who will play heavy defensive minutes but still get us some decent possession. I'm fairly confident about that projection. Things can of course go both up and down.

 

[SprDaVE]

I would say this is a very fair post. I have Lazar pegged as a #2C on a good team. On a great team, he could be a great #3C. He has offence and defence to his game which is something that is very attractive.

I keep hearing Gauthier is going to be defensive beast. At the Worlds we didn't see this, or I didn't. Now people are going to say I am being negative again and I am picking on him. But I don't see anything special in his defensive game that would make me say Bob Gainey.

He's responsible defensively, he tries hard, he is a big lumbering worker. Nothing wrong with this, maybe I am wrong, but the hype of him being this defensive beast, I honestly haven't seen it. Maybe he is the type that grows on you or maybe we need to see more of him. I just doubt anyone has seen him enough to say this guy is Bergeron elite defensively. And I am not comparing him to bergeron, only his defence.

This is your problem, and the problem of many around here. You haven't seen him play for more then a handful of games in a tournament that was badly mismanaged by the coach.

Being negative about someone with having only seen him play about a handful of games is complete waste of your time to even debate about if he's the next Gainey or not. If you told me Couturier would be this beast of a 2-way player from simply just his WJC games, I'd be laughing you off pretty hard. But I was able to watch him play a lot throughout the years and I always said he's be a great player and he's a lot better then what people thought he was, a lazy no work ethic skilled player.

Gauthier barely played at the last WJC's. I don't think he played more then 10 minutes in any of the games. He was strictly used for his faceoff ability in the defensive zone and some PK. Again, to keep talking like you know exactly what kind of player he is by having only seen him play 5 times would not be something I would suggest you keep harping on.

I have seen Gauthier play both live and on television more then 20 times over the last 2 years. What you're saying isn't completely wrong but it's also a mash of a lot of cliché's. He's a lot, and I mean a lot, better then just a "responsible" 2-way forward. He's one of the best in that aspect because of his work ethic and hockey IQ. He's also one of the toughest players to knock down or get the puck away from because of his strength along the boards. All that makes up for a lot of interesting potential when you mix in some very raw skills.

He's definitely a bit of a long-term prospect in terms of offence and Lazar is a better prospect, as he should be, but spare us the rhetoric that you know all about Gauthier because quite frankly, it's clear you don't know much about his game, but you speak like you do.

Who knows what Gauthier will end being once he turns pro. Even with his smarts and work ethic, that may not be enough to be a regular NHL player down the line. What I'm trying to say is that you should probably watch him play before commenting like he's not worth the development time of the Leafs.

 

[Pholus]

^ Finn was taken in 2012, same year as Rielly .. It was just Biggs and Percy selected in 2011

thanks Bert. i knew someone was off but i wasn't sure which one it was.

I'm assuming you're talking about when Burke traded picks #30 (Rakell) and #39 (Gibson) to move up to #22 in 2011 so he could take Biggs. Worth noting that Jenner (37th) and Saad (43rd) would have been available if you didn't like Rakell. But hindsight is always 20/20.

 

[FifthLine]

So why didn't the Leafs draft Lazar?!?!?!?!?

OH yeah, because he wasn't even on the board when our pick came.

What a revelation.

Leafs need a player like Gauthier, so I'm not going to cry about the pick because it'll be a long time before you know if it was the right decision.

Leafs lack defensive forwards with size, it's a bonus that Gauthier is a good skater and has decent offensive potential. People that expected him to be an elite player or a something other than a solid top 9 center need to readjust their thinking.

For the first time in a long time the Leafs actually have decent center depth that complement each other in the system. Nylander, Gauthier and Verhaeghe.

... I'm not sure what your trying to say. I in fact like Gauthier and think he is player we need, I was stating that Lazar was better, someone was arguing against that fact.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I'm assuming you're talking about when Burke traded picks #30 (Rakell) and #39 (Gibson) to move up to #22 in 2011 so he could take Biggs. Worth noting that Jenner (37th) and Saad (43rd) would have been available if you didn't like Rakell. But hindsight is always 20/20.

well that's a part of it. Like I try not to do examples like that because there's never any indication that the Leafs would

A: draft that player or
B: that player would be as good with us as they are with their prospective teams

but when people go well I wish X i wonder if it applies across the the board, without taking everything under consideration.

 

[mikebel111*]

... I'm not sure what your trying to say. I in fact like Gauthier and think he is player we need, I was stating that Lazar was better, someone was arguing against that fact.

me? I never talked about Lazar in my post. I was just mentioning Gauthier's defensive ability

 

[Pholus]

well that's a part of it. Like I try not to do examples like that because there's never any indication that the Leafs would

A: draft that player or
B: that player would be as good with us as they are with their prospective teams

but when people go well I wish X i wonder if it applies across the the board, without taking everything under consideration.

I get what you're saying, and I think a good example would be Brad Ross. Up until he turned pro and stopped producing offensively, I though moving up for him seemed like a pretty good move. It's only after it became apparent that he couldn't do much at the AHL level that I went back and started looking at some of the other guys that were still available when he was picked (Spooner, Toffoli, Jarnkrok, Gudas, etc).

 

[Ricky Bobby]

This is your problem, and the problem of many around here. You haven't seen him play for more then a handful of games in a tournament that was badly mismanaged by the coach.

Being negative about someone with having only seen him play about a handful of games is complete waste of your time to even debate about if he's the next Gainey or not. If you told me Couturier would be this beast of a 2-way player from simply just his WJC games, I'd be laughing you off pretty hard. But I was able to watch him play a lot throughout the years and I always said he's be a great player and he's a lot better then what people thought he was, a lazy no work ethic skilled player.

Gauthier barely played at the last WJC's. I don't think he played more then 10 minutes in any of the games. He was strictly used for his faceoff ability in the defensive zone and some PK. Again, to keep talking like you know exactly what kind of player he is by having only seen him play 5 times would not be something I would suggest you keep harping on.

I have seen Gauthier play both live and on television more then 20 times over the last 2 years. What you're saying isn't completely wrong but it's also a mash of a lot of cliché's. He's a lot, and I mean a lot, better then just a "responsible" 2-way forward. He's one of the best in that aspect because of his work ethic and hockey IQ. He's also one of the toughest players to knock down or get the puck away from because of his strength along the boards. All that makes up for a lot of interesting potential when you mix in some very raw skills.

He's definitely a bit of a long-term prospect in terms of offence and Lazar is a better prospect, as he should be, but spare us the rhetoric that you know all about Gauthier because quite frankly, it's clear you don't know much about his game, but you speak like you do.

Who knows what Gauthier will end being once he turns pro. Even with his smarts and work ethic, that may not be enough to be a regular NHL player down the line. What I'm trying to say is that you should probably watch him play before commenting like he's not worth the development time of the Leafs.

Good post.

At best he turns into Martin Hanzal type impact, most likely I see Paul Gaustad type impact who was a very good 3rd liner for a number of years and at worst I see David Steckel type impact player.

Gauthier is a big kid who's still growing into his body. You can't teach that kinda size or even defensive IQ.

Some high IQ players also do better at the NHL level because the game is very structured well junior-AHL isn't nearly as much. Bozak is a prime example of a guy who's a very high IQ player who looks better in the NHL.

The offensive ability might be what limits Gauthier.

 

[The Great Gazoo]

Why are we talking about Lazar? He was drafted ahead of Gauthier. Lazar was taken 17th, Gauthier 21st.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I get what you're saying, and I think a good example would be Brad Ross. Up until he turned pro and stopped producing offensively, I though moving up for him seemed like a pretty good move. It's only after it became apparent that he couldn't do much at the AHL level that I went back and started looking at some of the other guys that were still available when he was picked (Spooner, Toffoli, Jarnkrok, Gudas, etc).

Right. Exactly. And why did we move up to draft Brad Ross? Because he was a Burke type of player, and Burke needed to wheel and deal and make a move. And it's things like that when people like interactif go "well sometimes I miss Burkie." that makes me go "yeah? why?" Because some of the best players in the system are simply from where we drafted. Everyone that we ever moved up to get in his tenure here, has a certain, "Soo..... are you going to be showing me anything soon?" quality to it - vs the players we could have gotten had we just stayed put.

Lazar could be light-years better than Gauthier when it's all said and done - but there is nothing indicating in the slightest that

A: Lazar would be the type of player Burke would have drafted
B: that Burke would have even moved up if he was still around

Why are we talking about Lazar? He was drafted ahead of Gauthier. Lazar was taken 17th, Gauthier 21st.

Because, there are some people who feel that the best quality of the draft ended at pick 20, and Nonis should have packaged Finn & picks to move up to get Buffalo's 16th pick to draft Lazar, instead of simply being satisfied with a player of Gauthier's nature, for the simple reason of that they prefer Lazar over Gauthier.

 

[The Great Gazoo]

Right. Exactly. And why did we move up to draft Brad Ross? Because he was a Burke type of player, and Burke needed to wheel and deal and make a move. And it's things like that when people like interactif go "well sometimes I miss Burkie." that makes me go "yeah? why?" Because some of the best players in the system are simply from where we drafted. Everyone that we ever moved up to get in his tenure here, has a certain, "Soo..... are you going to be showing me anything soon?" quality to it - vs the players we could have gotten had we just stayed put.

Lazar could be light-years better than Gauthier when it's all said and done - but there is nothing indicating in the slightest that

A: Lazar would be the type of player Burke would have drafted
B: that Burke would have even moved up if he was still around




Because, there are some people who feel that the best quality of the draft ended at pick 20, and Nonis should have packaged Finn & picks to move up to get Buffalo's 16th pick to draft Lazar, instead of simply being satisfied with a player of Gauthier's nature, for the simple reason of that they prefer Lazar over Gauthier.

Finn? Well, I am for one glad he didn't do anything so stupid. Finn IMO is our 2nd best prospect behind only Nylander. And it's also completely speculative they would have been able to move up. But living in the Captain Hindsight world we live in of course people believe it.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Why are we talking about Lazar? He was drafted ahead of Gauthier. Lazar was taken 17th, Gauthier 21st.

Obvious reason is for a pick only picked 4 spots ahead of Gauthier, he is looking far better at the moment.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

This is your problem, and the problem of many around here. You haven't seen him play for more then a handful of games in a tournament that was badly mismanaged by the coach.

Being negative about someone with having only seen him play about a handful of games is complete waste of your time to even debate about if he's the next Gainey or not. If you told me Couturier would be this beast of a 2-way player from simply just his WJC games, I'd be laughing you off pretty hard. But I was able to watch him play a lot throughout the years and I always said he's be a great player and he's a lot better then what people thought he was, a lazy no work ethic skilled player.

Gauthier barely played at the last WJC's. I don't think he played more then 10 minutes in any of the games. He was strictly used for his faceoff ability in the defensive zone and some PK. Again, to keep talking like you know exactly what kind of player he is by having only seen him play 5 times would not be something I would suggest you keep harping on.

I have seen Gauthier play both live and on television more then 20 times over the last 2 years. What you're saying isn't completely wrong but it's also a mash of a lot of cliché's. He's a lot, and I mean a lot, better then just a "responsible" 2-way forward. He's one of the best in that aspect because of his work ethic and hockey IQ. He's also one of the toughest players to knock down or get the puck away from because of his strength along the boards. All that makes up for a lot of interesting potential when you mix in some very raw skills.

He's definitely a bit of a long-term prospect in terms of offence and Lazar is a better prospect, as he should be, but spare us the rhetoric that you know all about Gauthier because quite frankly, it's clear you don't know much about his game, but you speak like you do.

Who knows what Gauthier will end being once he turns pro. Even with his smarts and work ethic, that may not be enough to be a regular NHL player down the line. What I'm trying to say is that you should probably watch him play before commenting like he's not worth the development time of the Leafs.

I don't buy the only seen a handful of games argument, what I could buy more is we have not seen him this upcoming season yet. We will see, but I don't see a player with more than 35-40 point potential.

If he is not going to be an elite Shutdown Center, than picking up a 3rd or 4th line Center in the 1st rd would be underwhelming, we could easily sign a Santorelli or Mcclement once a summer to fill that void.

 

[SprDaVE]

I don't buy the only seen a handful of games argument, what I could buy more is we have not seen him this upcoming season yet. We will see, but I don't see a player with more than 35-40 point potential.

If he is not going to be an elite Shutdown Center, than picking up a 3rd or 4th line Center in the 1st rd would be underwhelming, we could easily sign a Santorelli or Mcclement once a summer to fill that void.

You don't buy that argument? It's not an argument, it's a fact, a fact that's pretty easy to determine.

It's fine to make your opinion on someone's stat line. That's your perogative. I just find it pretty flawed to make huge potential assumptions on certain players that you haven't seen more then a handful of times. That's my argument. This goes for hyping or otherwise.

The point in drafting Gauthier wasn't to pigeon hole him into a bottom 6 role in his future. He's a late blooming prospect with very raw skills along with a tentalizing mix of physical and hockey IQ abilities that are pretty rare. He was rated so high throughout the year due to those reasons. A long term project with a bottom ceiling that can still develop into a useful NHL player. Developping his offensive abilities is the main goal and certainly not an impossible task to accomplish. Many, and I mean many players get drafted in the late first round that are defensive players with questionable offensive upside. If you think Santorelli or McClement are elite shut down centers, then I think we are done here.

But whatever. You can do what you want really, I'm just pointing out some flawed arguments.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

You buy that argument? It's not an argument, it's a fact, a fact that's pretty easy to determine.

It's fine to make your opinion on someone's stat line. That's your perogative. I just find it pretty flawed to make huge potential assumptions on certain players that you haven't seen more then a handful of times. That's my argument. This goes for hyping or otherwise.

The point in drafting Gauthier wasn't to pigeon hole him into a bottom 6 role in his future. He's a late blooming prospect with very raw skills along with a tentalizing mix of physical and hockey IQ abilities that are pretty rare. He was rated so high throughout the year due to those reasons. A long term project with a bottom ceiling that can still develop into a useful NHL player. Developping his offensive abilities is the main goal and certainly not an impossible task to accomplish. Many, and I mean many players get drafted in the late first round that are defensive players with questionable offensive upside. If you don't get that, that's fine.

But whatever. You can do what you want really, I'm just pointing out some flawed arguments.

Okay we will agree to disagree, the small sample size argument to me is just a built in excuse for players. And again I am open to seeing how Gautiher does this year, but it doesn't take hours and hours of viewing to see Gauthier's offensive acumen is not his strong suit.

Conversely for a player like Morgan Rielly, it took very few viewings for most of us to see he has the capabilities of being a special player.

 

[SprDaVE]

Okay we will agree to disagree, the small sample size argument to me is just a built in excuse for players. And again I am open to seeing how Gautiher does this year, but it doesn't take hours and hours of viewing to see Gauthier's offensive acumen is not his strong suit.

Conversely for a player like Morgan Rielly, it took very few viewings for most of us to see he has the capabilities of being a special player.

The sample size is also very questionable. Your sample size is from a tournament that he barely played and I could argue the whole team was mismanaged in terms of player management. It was terrible.

Rielly didn't exactly have a world class WJC's when he was there. If those were my only viewings of him, I don't think I'd be very impressed with him as a top 10 pick, even with his excellent skating.

Scouting to make your judgement on certain players from the WJC's is a really bad way to determine future potential. Sure you can get a good feel of what the player's style is, but I would seriously question any team that scouts only the WJC's and very small sample sizes like you're doing. If it did, Pogge would be a Hall of Famer by now and DiDomenico would be one of the best playmakers in the league,

 

[The Winter Soldier]

The sample size is also very questionable. Your sample size is from a tournament that he barely played and I could argue the whole team was mismanaged in terms of player management. It was terrible.

Rielly didn't exactly have a world class WJC's when he was there. If those were my only viewings of him, I don't think I'd be very impressed with him as a top 10 pick, even with his excellent skating.

Scouting to make your judgement on certain players from the WJC's is a really bad way to determine future potential. Sure you can get a good feel of what the player's style is, but I would seriously question any team that scouts only the WJC's and very small sample sizes like you're doing. If it did, Pogge would be a Hall of Famer by now and DiDomenico would be one of the best playmakers in the league,

Just a clarification, not just talking about viewing 1 tournament, but various tournaments and camps. It's a sample I am comfortable with. And again, I am willing to adjust based on this year's play. But I don't expect this player to ever show the offensive talent for a top 6 role.

 

[Menzinger]

In todays NHL the beat shutdown centres are top six guys. If youre going to have a player out on the ice a lot to shut down the other team, youre going to want him to be able to chip in offesively.

Im hoping Gauthier is a bit of a late bloomer - i belive he did have an offensive uptick during heblast half of the previous season - lets hope this trend continues.

 

[dimi78]

... I'm not sure what your trying to say. I in fact like Gauthier and think he is player we need, I was stating that Lazar was better, someone was arguing against that fact.

Your both wrong in this argument. Neither are NHL regulars they're prospects of different traits and will face different quality of competition for an NHL job where it really matters.

They're prospects neither are proven NHL players to even get into a debate like this. As is with all prospect the wait & see approach is required.


Gauthier has 3 traits that screams of NHL. His size & strength, his skating ability for such a big man, and his ability to read the game without the puck are ALL of NHL quality. It could be argued his hockey IQ without the puck is elite. he could step in right now and not look out of place even thrive in a defensive checking role. He's not skill and talentless either which is why he's an intriguing prospect. They're letting him develop his offensive confidence and that will determine how good he'll be once in the NHL...

You know what I would like? Is to have both Gauthier and Nylander develop together next season as line mates down in the AHL. IMO that would be ideal.

 

[dimi78]

In todays NHL the beat shutdown centres are top six guys. If youre going to have a player out on the ice a lot to shut down the other team, youre going to want him to be able to chip in offesively.

Im hoping Gauthier is a bit of a late bloomer - i belive he did have an offensive uptick during heblast half of the previous season - lets hope this trend continues.

In todays game the best shutdown guys are players that don't look out of place in the offensive cycle who are strong holding on to the puck in the offensive zone. He's not elite gifted offensive player but neither is Backes or Jordan Staal. Offensive production is kind of irrelevant right now. The way he plays the game offense will come in part of his size in front of the net banking in rebounds and to a fact who his linemates will be once in the NHL.

Jr stats mean squat... I wish people would just ignore them and put NHL attributes to the front of the mantle when talking prospects. Corey Locke posted Gretzky like numbers in jr hockey they mean nothing and should be taken with a grain of sault both if they're strong numbers or numbers that suggest as poor. Luccic was a freaking goon in jr's

 

[Pyrophorus]

Rimouski is ranked #1 in the CHL.

Should bode well for Gauthier
Maybe Bibeau would be the hired hand again.

 

[HockeyThoughts]

Obvious reason is for a pick only picked 4 spots ahead of Gauthier, he is looking far better at the moment.

We're like one year removed from the 2013 Draft and neither have played even one game of professional hockey, so who really cares if one looks marginally better than the other. They both project to be significantly different players with different strengths and weaknesses and both are currently still playing against kids in junior. Once they start to show something at the professional level against men and they get to showcase their strengths (strength, goalscoring prowess for Lazar and size, reach and defensive prowess from Gauthier) then we will have a better idea of who is "looking far better."

But if you want to play this game while we're at it we should invite the Ottawa Senator fans over and we can all complain that we didn't draft Anthony Mantha. Now there's a kid who has proven enough post-draft to make you regret not moving up to nab him (drafted a spot above Gauthier). The kid looks like he's going to be a star.