Frédérik Gauthier

[Pholus]

Offensive ability is a gift based on talent, while defense and positioning can be taught and learned.

Lots of examples of high scoring junior players evolving into elite defensive players at the NHL level. Seldom do low scoring junior players that are solid defensively become elite NHL offensive players as they move up.

Generally offensive totals decline as you advance up the ranks for most players except those that were already elite players coming in.

So Gauthier seems to be heading for a shutdown role in the pros based on his trajectory offensively as a junior.

I don't think anyone believes that Gauthier can become an 'elite offensive player' in the NHL, but if he can score 15-20g and 40ish pts, I would say that's extremely good for where he was when he was drafted. Such production would be fitting of an elite 3C/mediocre 2C, which is what his upside MAY be (how his offensive game progresses this year will be a big factor in determining what kind of potential he has in the NHL).

 

[The Magic Man]

I think Gauthier is a lightening rod, just due to the fact Mantha, Lazar and Rychel were all picked around him. You can throw in Burakowsky a very promising fwd.

It's not the player, but the pick, at 21 should we be picking 3C upside or do we shoot higher?

All those guys were taken before him. That makes the point irrelevant, in my opinion. You could discuss Gauthier vs Burakovsky, Shinkaruk, Poirier or any other player taken after FG, but IMO, none have done much to really separate themselves from Gauthier. Mantha certainly has alluded to being a steal so far, but not much else later in the draft.

The way I see it, it wasn't a great draft. Lots of decent prospects, but no real steals or stars. It's really not worth discussing too much, but that's just my opinion. Besides, it's still way too early.

I wanted Gauthier. All things being relatively equal, I'd much rather we take a big defensive C then a 2nd line scorer with out much else to his game. If I could do it over again I'd stay with FG, but the closest I'd consider taking is Poirier, based on his apparent gritty game. We do really need more grit in the top 9. Almost as much as a big defensive center that can score a bit.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I think Gauthier is a lightening rod, just due to the fact Mantha, Lazar and Rychel were all picked around him. You can throw in Burakowsky a very promising fwd.

It's not the player, but the pick, at 21 should we be picking 3C upside or do we shoot higher?

any player the Leafs pick is a lightening rod. Gauthier isn't anyone special. Had we drafted #1 overall, and picked Ekblad, it would have been "why not Bennet/Reinhart" if we had picked Bennett it would have been why not Reinhart, and vice versa

1, 21, 191 people have opinions on the Leafs picks.

the thing is - he shouldn't be. Gauthier is a great piece for our system for where we drafted. we needed centres, we needed centres who have defensive awareness, with the potential of being offense-ively good.

I'd rather have a mixed stable of talent than another Mantha etc, which is what I think a lot of people are complaining about. "why didn't we go for the offense" with this pick as if this guy has zero upside whatsoever and people slamming all of these limitations on him.

 

[highslot]

agree that gauthier is a lightning rod but disagree with having a mixed stable with a high draft pick.

as seen by losing bolland and getting winnik, santorelli and komorov, getting quality bottom six isn't hard in the draft nor fa, so imo, your first rounder should be boom or bust skill (like a giroux [drafted 22], eberle [22] saad, jenner) even if it's later. you can still get quality in the second round like a subban.

i'm not against the gauthier pick specifically, because it seems he actually one of the three bpa at the time, but for example, shinkaruk or burakowsky (specifically) would have been boom or bust picks.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I wonder what it would have taken to get Buffalo's 16 pick? #21 and our 3rd? #21 and Finn?

I would be targeted that pick when I saw Lazar available. I know it's all hindsight, but this is a deal I would have considered, love Lazar. He's got much more game than Gauthier IMO.

Sometimes I miss Burkie.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

love the lamenting of missing out on two kids who were apparently not hard workers before the draft (not my words or opinion), to go along with apparent "character issues " that both Mantha and Rychel had.

Them even being brought up here is a MASSIVE joke, that I'm sure Wookie has had a chuckle or two about.

We got the player we needed at the time, who projects to be a vital cog in the machine in the future. Plain and simple.

 

[Cap'n Flavour]

Drafting for need in the first round is dumb. Let's see if Gauthier can put together a successful AHL season in 15-16 before we co calling him a vital cog.

 

[Antropovsky]

His offensive skill in my limited viewings looked very very undeveloped. His shot looked terribly weak. I just wonder how much we can reasonably expect him to improve in this regard? His skating is also average.

Seems that supremely offensively skilled players have an easier time developing a defensive side to their game, then strong defensive players do, in having to develop an offensive side.

For this reason I don't like drafting players in the first round, whose offensive skills, aren't overly developed.

 

[Nithoniniel]

agree that gauthier is a lightning rod but disagree with having a mixed stable with a high draft pick.

as seen by losing bolland and getting winnik, santorelli and komorov, getting quality bottom six isn't hard in the draft nor fa, so imo, your first rounder should be boom or bust skill (like a giroux [drafted 22], eberle [22] saad, jenner) even if it's later. you can still get quality in the second round like a subban.

i'm not against the gauthier pick specifically, because it seems he actually one of the three bpa at the time, but for example, shinkaruk or burakowsky (specifically) would have been boom or bust picks.

It's not really a complex thing. You can get both quality players safter picks in any round. The higher the round, the bigger probability for the high impact player and higher upside for the safer pick. If there were Gauthier picks available later, there wouldn't be a Gauthier as BPA at #21. He's taken there because his combination of upside and probability is of high value.

And the potential impact of Gauthier is way above that of fourth liners like Winnik or Komarov, or most of what Santorelli has shown so far in his career.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I wonder what it would have taken to get Buffalo's 16 pick? #21 and our 3rd? #21 and Finn?

I would be targeted that pick when I saw Lazar available. I know it's all hindsight, but this is a deal I would have considered, love Lazar. He's got much more game than Gauthier IMO.

Sometimes I miss Burkie.

Did you miss Burke when the picks he traded off was for Brendan Saad & John Gibson? Players that could have and totally would have worked better in our favour? Did you miss him when he made other big trades that hadn't panned out for us on the draft floor?

Lazar has more game than Gauthier how?? What does Lazar provide that our system needs more so than Gauthier does? Let's put this another way - when it's all said and done, if Lazar (a centre) were to make the Leafs -where exactly would he have played? the Wing? no - because that's where our strength is and we've got a tonne of other talented wingers coming up.

Is Lazar projected to be a 2nd line centre? Hm Oh wait. we HAVE ONE. in fact we have two, depending on how people want to slide Kadri and Bozak. (and you have a real issue with Kadri, someone Burke drafted and was and is still very high on), all of a sudden, we have Lazar having to make a niche he may or may not be good at the third spot, where as we have Gauthier who will excel in that position and could potentially be a surprise if he were to move up - though he may not need to).

Again, I find it laughingly, frustratingly hilarious, that you get irritated that picks are tossed out like candy so we can't draft people - but then turn around and wish that we could package assets like Finn & said picks to move up and draft players that have 'better game' than the player we have (we'll ignore the fact that while both kids have been on Team Canada, ONE of them plays the important critical minutes (note: that would be the player that TORONTO drafted) as well as his team).

All because you don't like Gauthier because he's as of right now, not as offensively gifted as you like, or whatever bizarro-world reason you have against this kid, ignoring the talents he can bring the Leafs that they don't even have.

 

[darrylsittler27]

He is a 3rd liner.

Maybe Lazar,Rychel and Mantha are 2nd liners but when you draft 21st you often take character / role players. With the expansion coming if Toronto does land say Stamkos don't expect to get excited about our first rounders anymore. Gauthier wasn't a bad pick but all he is, is a big 3rd line defensive C. His size and skating said NHL, his offense, well....

 

[mikebel111*]

Did you miss Burke when the picks he traded off was for Brendan Saad & John Gibson? Players that could have and totally would have worked better in our favour? Did you miss him when he made other big trades that hadn't panned out for us on the draft floor?

Lazar has more game than Gauthier how?? What does Lazar provide that our system needs more so than Gauthier does? Let's put this another way - when it's all said and done, if Lazar (a centre) were to make the Leafs -where exactly would he have played? the Wing? no - because that's where our strength is and we've got a tonne of other talented wingers coming up.

Is Lazar projected to be a 2nd line centre? Hm Oh wait. we HAVE ONE. in fact we have two, depending on how people want to slide Kadri and Bozak. (and you have a real issue with Kadri, someone Burke drafted and was and is still very high on), all of a sudden, we have Lazar having to make a niche he may or may not be good at the third spot, where as we have Gauthier who will excel in that position and could potentially be a surprise if he were to move up - though he may not need to).

Again, I find it laughingly, frustratingly hilarious, that you get irritated that picks are tossed out like candy so we can't draft people - but then turn around and wish that we could package assets like Finn & said picks to move up and draft players that have 'better game' than the player we have (we'll ignore the fact that while both kids have been on Team Canada, ONE of them plays the important critical minutes (note: that would be the player that TORONTO drafted) as well as his team).

All because you don't like Gauthier because he's as of right now, not as offensively gifted as you like, or whatever bizarro-world reason you have against this kid, ignoring the talents he can bring the Leafs that they don't even have.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is an amazing post!

Keep up the great work Daisy!

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Did you miss Burke when the picks he traded off was for Brendan Saad & John Gibson? Players that could have and totally would have worked better in our favour? Did you miss him when he made other big trades that hadn't panned out for us on the draft floor?

Lazar has more game than Gauthier how?? What does Lazar provide that our system needs more so than Gauthier does? Let's put this another way - when it's all said and done, if Lazar (a centre) were to make the Leafs -where exactly would he have played? the Wing? no - because that's where our strength is and we've got a tonne of other talented wingers coming up.

Is Lazar projected to be a 2nd line centre? Hm Oh wait. we HAVE ONE. in fact we have two, depending on how people want to slide Kadri and Bozak. (and you have a real issue with Kadri, someone Burke drafted and was and is still very high on), all of a sudden, we have Lazar having to make a niche he may or may not be good at the third spot, where as we have Gauthier who will excel in that position and could potentially be a surprise if he were to move up - though he may not need to).

Again, I find it laughingly, frustratingly hilarious, that you get irritated that picks are tossed out like candy so we can't draft people - but then turn around and wish that we could package assets like Finn & said picks to move up and draft players that have 'better game' than the player we have (we'll ignore the fact that while both kids have been on Team Canada, ONE of them plays the important critical minutes (note: that would be the player that TORONTO drafted) as well as his team).

All because you don't like Gauthier because he's as of right now, not as offensively gifted as you like, or whatever bizarro-world reason you have against this kid, ignoring the talents he can bring the Leafs that they don't even have.

Lazar is a better prospect and a Center which has already shown a higher ceiling than Gauthier.

This is the only part worth responding to as you went on quite a ramble here. Don't take this as being rude, but I have seen both play and this is hockey. We are entitled to individual judgments on players.

Lazar is going to be a better player than Gauthier based on what I have seen from the 2. Short and sweet. Agree to disagree.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Lazar is great, looking like another superb two-way 3C. The difference between him and Gauthier is that the latter has a slight edge defensively and Lazar has a better offensive game. I'd agree that he's the better prospect, but he is not so much better that it is worth giving up one of our better prospects.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Lazar is a better prospect and a Center which has already shown a higher ceiling than Gauthier.

This is the only part worth responding to as you went on quite a ramble here. Don't take this as being rude, but I have seen both play and this is hockey. We are entitled to individual judgments on players.

Lazar is going to be a better player than Gauthier based on what I have seen from the 2. Short and sweet. Agree to disagree.

fine agree to disagree:

Sometimes you miss Burkie:

Did you miss Burkie when he traded picks to get the 'BPA" but cost us getting Gibson and Saad? better players than whom we traded up to get.

Short. and sweet, interested in your answer.

 

[Ash35]

Not a regular anyway...

If your first round pick doesn't become a regular in the NHL then your scouts have failed.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

fine agree to disagree:

Sometimes you miss Burkie:

Did you miss Burkie when he traded picks to get the 'BPA" but cost us getting Gibson and Saad? better players than whom we traded up to get.

Short. and sweet, interested in your answer.

I just found your reply to my liking Lazar really long and going in all directions. This is why I just responded to the Lazar/Gauthier part.

Being Leafs fans I would hope we can admire players on other teams, and not only players that wear blue and white.

I am a Leafs fan, but it doesn't cloud my judgment on players.

Here's an example, pretty much I was one of only a handful of posters here in 2012 that wanted a Defenceman drafted due to the draft being D strong, when Rielly was drafted I was ecstatic. I am not crazy about the hate card you played in your reply to me.

So when I say, I would have offered Rielly to Nashville in the 2013 draft to pick Seth Jones, it is recognition of a player from another org that one deems is better, you may even say special. But if Nashville would have bit on a trade of Rielly for their 4th pick, I would have done it in a NY sec. Doesn't mean I do not like Rielly, I think all know how much I think of him.

Same thing when it comes to Lazar, and it does bother me, Ottawa got him picking only 4 picks before us. Because he can be that good, he's a memorial cup champ, he's a top 6 C, he can be a shutdown C. He's grit and he's smart. A pretty good package at 17.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I just found your reply to my liking Lazar really long and going in all directions. This is why I just responded to the Lazar/Gauthier part.

Being Leafs fans I would hope we can admire players on other teams, and not only players that wear blue and white.

I am a Leafs fan, but it doesn't cloud my judgment on players.

Here's an example, pretty much I was one of only a handful of posters here in 2012 that wanted a Defenceman drafted due to the draft being D strong, when Rielly was drafted I was ecstatic. I am not crazy about the hate card you played in your reply to me.

So when I say, I would have offered Rielly to Nashville in the 2013 draft to pick Seth Jones, it is recognition of a player from another org that one deems is better, you may even say special. But if Nashville would have bit on a trade of Rielly for their 4th pick, I would have done it in a NY sec. Doesn't mean I do not like Rielly, I think all know how much I think of him.

Same thing when it comes to Lazar, and it does bother me, Ottawa got him picking only 4 picks before us. Because he can be that good, he's a memorial cup champ, he's a top 6 C, he can be a shutdown C. He's grit and he's smart. A pretty good package at 17.

I never said you hated anyone, didn't even mentioned it. You do not, and you have said. on more than one occasion, you don't like the Gauthier pick. You have said on more than one occasion, you don't like how Kadri developed (whom I used in an example). I also said i think it's funny how you get irritated how we keep tossing picks away, but then would have packaged one up for Lazar - because you like him and you don't like Gauthier's game - where again - during the WJC, it was Gauthier who kept going out for critical plays and moments of the ice so whatever 'game' Lazar has, it's not like Gauthier is a shrinking violet.


You also said and I quote: Sometimes I miss Burkie. implying that you miss the way he wheeled and dealed to make moves happen.

to which I have asked. now three times without an answer: Did you like Burke when he wheeled/dealed away our picks that would have been Saad & Gibson to move up to get Percy, Biggs and Finn? (i'm pretty sure those are the players involved).

everything is hindsight. and with these players it's still going to continue. I personally am not going "Leaf Power Forever, HUH!" fist pump in the air. I have a tonne of players that I like who aren't property of the Leafs. what irks me is - no one can ever give our players a chance ever, in anything. In this case in this thread, a lot of people are labeling a 6'5 18-19 year old a bust and how we SHOULD have moved up, we SHOULD have done this, why DIDN'T we make a move, while not freaking appreciating what we've got.

Lazar could be the 'better player'. But that doesn't mean Gauthier doesn't have the potential or the capability of being a damned good player himself, and what frustrates me is that a lot of people just want to toss him away (without giving him a single chance) because 'potential' other players (that have other issues to them) was drafted around them.

 

[BertCorbeau]

^ Finn was taken in 2012, same year as Rielly .. It was just Biggs and Percy selected in 2011

 

[diceman934]

I never said you hated anyone, didn't even mentioned it. You do not, and you have said. on more than one occasion, you don't like the Gauthier pick. You have said on more than one occasion, you don't like how Kadri developed (whom I used in an example). I also said i think it's funny how you get irritated how we keep tossing picks away, but then would have packaged one up for Lazar - because you like him and you don't like Gauthier's game - where again - during the WJC, it was Gauthier who kept going out for critical plays and moments of the ice so whatever 'game' Lazar has, it's not like Gauthier is a shrinking violet.


You also said and I quote: Sometimes I miss Burkie. implying that you miss the way he wheeled and dealed to make moves happen.

to which I have asked. now three times without an answer: Did you like Burke when he wheeled/dealed away our picks that would have been Saad & Gibson to move up to get Percy, Biggs and Finn? (i'm pretty sure those are the players involved).

everything is hindsight. and with these players it's still going to continue. I personally am not going "Leaf Power Forever, HUH!" fist pump in the air. I have a tonne of players that I like who aren't property of the Leafs. what irks me is - no one can ever give our players a chance ever, in anything. In this case in this thread, a lot of people are labeling a 6'5 18-19 year old a bust and how we SHOULD have moved up, we SHOULD have done this, why DIDN'T we make a move, while not freaking appreciating what we've got.

Lazar could be the 'better player'. But that doesn't mean Gauthier doesn't have the potential or the capability of being a damned good player himself, and what frustrates me is that a lot of people just want to toss him away (without giving him a single chance) because 'potential' other players (that have other issues to them) was drafted around them.

Daisy,

I asked a kid I coached who just happens to be named the captain on Gauthier team this year about him. ( since traded ) His words " he is a beast" " he works his ass off" and "has great offensive ability". I am willing to wait a little longer before writing him off.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I am a big Biggs booster from the 2011 draft and even players that I am known for loving, I do recognize it is high time he make a statement this year. Whether it is Rielly, Percy, Gauthier, or Biggs. We need our 1st rounders panning out to their ceilings rather than their bare minimum potential.

 

[Daisy Jane]

^ Finn was taken in 2012, same year as Rielly .. It was just Biggs and Percy selected in 2011

thanks Bert. i knew someone was off but i wasn't sure which one it was.

 

[highslot]

It's not really a complex thing. You can get both quality players safter picks in any round. The higher the round, the bigger probability for the high impact player and higher upside for the safer pick. If there were Gauthier picks available later, there wouldn't be a Gauthier as BPA at #21. He's taken there because his combination of upside and probability is of high value.

And the potential impact of Gauthier is way above that of fourth liners like Winnik or Komarov, or most of what Santorelli has shown so far in his career.

i think you are overrating gauthier. we haven't seen the ceiling on komarov, we've only seen one season. santorelli was doing well in the top 6 in vancouver from reports.

to clarify my argument, he MIGHT be the bpa at 21, but in terms of offensive ceiling, shinkaruk or burkovsky have more potential. i personally thought he could be seen as bpa, because i also factor in the chances to make the nhl and his overall skillset, but by no means did i think he had the highest skill, especially when it comes to scoring touch.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Lazar is great, looking like another superb two-way 3C. The difference between him and Gauthier is that the latter has a slight edge defensively and Lazar has a better offensive game. I'd agree that he's the better prospect, but he is not so much better that it is worth giving up one of our better prospects.

I would say this is a very fair post. I have Lazar pegged as a #2C on a good team. On a great team, he could be a great #3C. He has offence and defence to his game which is something that is very attractive.

I keep hearing Gauthier is going to be defensive beast. At the Worlds we didn't see this, or I didn't. Now people are going to say I am being negative again and I am picking on him. But I don't see anything special in his defensive game that would make me say Bob Gainey.

He's responsible defensively, he tries hard, he is a big lumbering worker. Nothing wrong with this, maybe I am wrong, but the hype of him being this defensive beast, I honestly haven't seen it. Maybe he is the type that grows on you or maybe we need to see more of him. I just doubt anyone has seen him enough to say this guy is Bergeron elite defensively. And I am not comparing him to bergeron, only his defence.

 

[CalgaryLeaf*]

I think Gauthier's ceiling is probably 12-15 goals and play defensively like Jay McClement...I see him as a 4th line checking center..He'll never have the impact of a Leo Komarov because he just doesn't have the wheels...Just don't expect another Bob Gainey.