Former Canucks: Players & Management - Part 2 (The Ben Hutton Sweepstakes are over)

[MS]

It's not that difficult to assert that it was not premeditated. We're not dealing with an unbroken chain here. Say May said, "Ya there's definitely a bounty on Moore's head." How would you interpret that to mean? That Moore had a target on his back and the Canucks would look to hit him every chance they got? To try and fight him? I highly doubt most people would interpret that as they're literally going to have him leave the ice on a stretcher. The fact that Bert challenged Moore to a fight actually suggests that he had no plans to assault Moore.

I don't think the whole situation was functionally really any different from the Matheson return game here last season, except we didn't have a hothead who punched him in the back of the head when he didn't fight.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Uh, that’s the point.

Bertuzzi’s incident was treated differently because:

1) attitudes toward this sort of thing were starting to change.

2) Colorado and Moore did everything in their power to stoke this into a media circus.

And it ended up crossing out of hockey into the mainstream with the ‘Won’t someone think of the children!’ crowd pushing for criminal charges.

As has been noted, that so many Canuck fans (and I’ve been as guilty of this as anyone) who are like ‘Ha, remember when Bure hunted down that dirty opposing player miles away from the play and knocked him out cold? That was awesome!’ will also claim ‘Ugh, remember when Bertuzzi hunted down that dirty opposing player miles away from the play and knocked him out cold? That was terrible!’ is ever-so-slightly hypocritical.

i don't think that's a great comparison. but let's consider how we feel about a wider spectrum:

- bure on churla, flying elbow to the head. optics: good. bure is small, churla is big and was already harassing him.

- moore on naslund, predatory elbow to the head. optics: bad. star player reaching for the puck gets headhunted by fringe player on divisional rival in a matchup with playoff implications.

- messier on linden, hitting him when he's already down when the game is basically already over. optics: bad. totally unnecessary and cheap af. luckily for that bald pos no one outside of MSG that night has actually seen this. but man, when i hear robson calling it, i imagine messier taking out a tire iron then sprinting off the ice to jump into jeff gillooly's getaway car.

- bertuzzi on moore, moore refuses to fight, tries to skate away, bertuzzi punches him in the head from behind, ensuing dogpile causes significant injury. optics: terrible. bertuzzi is enormous, brad may iirc threatened moore on camera already.

- mcsorley on brashear, donald refuses to fight, mcsorley whacks him in the head with his stick. optics: even worse. weapon was involved, plus the sight of a white player in a 99% white sport taking a swing like that at one of the few black players looks horrific.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

to respond to some of what's already been said in this thread, there was nothing sneaky about bertuzzi on moore. he grabbed him and was pretty clear that he was going to thump him.

on some level, yeah it was bad luck that everyone dog piled like that. on the other hand, as someone upthread said, bert really didn't know his strength there. but really, i think the big thing here is this was not a first time offence. in 2001, before his superstar breakout, bert left the bench to third mann in on scott parker while he was fighting jovo and got himself suspended for 10 games. so it's easy to come down on bert because he. just. does. not. learn.

and if you want to feel bad for bertuzzi it's not really that he didn't know his own strength. it's that he a big dumb head who doesn't think before he does things. he watched mccarty pound claude lemieux those two times and thought, well that's the way it's done. but he really should have thought about who steve moore was. a kid from thornhill, a rich af toronto neighbourhood, whose parents sent all three of their kids to harvard. you have to be stupid to think this guy's is likely to respect the code, whatever the f that still was in 2003. i don't think i expected moore to go full ambulance afterwards like he did



but if i'd known his background going into that game, i don't think i'd have expected him to face up to bertuzzi either.

 

[Zippgunn]

he watched mccarty pound claude lemieux those two times and thought, well that's the way it's done. but he really should have thought about who steve moore was. a kid from thornhill, a rich af toronto neighbourhood, whose parents sent all three of their kids to harvard. you have to be stupid to think this guy's is likely to respect the code, whatever the f that still was in 2003. i don't think i expected moore to go full ambulance afterwards like he did



but if i'd known his background going into that game, i don't think i'd have expected him to face up to bertuzzi either.

The shift button is your friend. An unbelievable post, really "full ambulance"? How should the unconcious Moore have made his way to the hospital? BTW why should Moore even have to face Bertuzzi? He had already fought Cooke (in his first fight EVER as a pro) and he had done nothing to Bert. Was is because he was "rich"? Some of the stuff that comes out of Canuck fans' mouths regarding this incident really makes me wonder. Maybe it's the water...

 

[F A N]

I don't think the whole situation was functionally really any different from the Matheson return game here last season, except we didn't have a hothead who punched him in the back of the head when he didn't fight.

I think there were different degrees. The Matheson incident was also slightly different in that it was a different era, Matheson received a suspension (albeit a short one), he did reach out to Pettersson, and there were months between games. There was much less pressure from the media for the Canucks players to exact retribution.

 

[krutovsdonut]

i don't think that's a great comparison. but let's consider how we feel about a wider spectrum:

- bure on churla, flying elbow to the head. optics: good. bure is small, churla is big and was already harassing him.

- moore on naslund, predatory elbow to the head. optics: bad. star player reaching for the puck gets headhunted by fringe player on divisional rival in a matchup with playoff implications.

- messier on linden, hitting him when he's already down when the game is basically already over. optics: bad. totally unnecessary and cheap af. luckily for that bald pos no one outside of MSG that night has actually seen this. but man, when i hear robson calling it, i imagine messier taking out a tire iron then sprinting off the ice to jump into jeff gillooly's getaway car.

- bertuzzi on moore, moore refuses to fight, tries to skate away, bertuzzi punches him in the head from behind, ensuing dogpile causes significant injury. optics: terrible. bertuzzi is enormous, brad may iirc threatened moore on camera already.

- mcsorley on brashear, donald refuses to fight, mcsorley whacks him in the head with his stick. optics: even worse. weapon was involved, plus the sight of a white player in a 99% white sport taking a swing like that at one of the few black players looks horrific.

i think people lose sight of the importance of the injury to moore in the bertuzzi thing.

to draw an analogy. if you drive drunk at say .14 bac, i get a fine and a 6 month licence suspension. if you drive just as drunk over the exact same route but this time you hit and kill a child on a tricycle who rides into the road, you get a bigger fine, go to jail for a year and get a ten year driving ban. in each case my moral culpability is the same, but the consequences of the actions yield different results.

 

[F A N]

i think people lose sight of the importance of the injury to moore in the bertuzzi thing.

to draw an analogy. if you drive drunk at say .14 bac, i get a fine and a 6 month licence suspension. if you drive just as drunk over the exact same route but this time you hit and kill a child on a tricycle who rides into the road, you get a bigger fine, go to jail for a year and get a ten year driving ban. in each case my moral culpability is the same, but the consequences of the actions yield different results.

Agreed. Punishment theory is definitely a whole separate discussion that would never be resolved. If Federov died from Bieksa's punch, Bieksa's NHL career would have played out a whole lot differently.

 

[RandV]

It's not that difficult to assert that it was not premeditated. We're not dealing with an unbroken chain here. Say May said, "Ya there's definitely a bounty on Moore's head." How would you interpret that to mean? That Moore had a target on his back and the Canucks would look to hit him every chance they got? To try and fight him? I highly doubt most people would interpret that as they're literally going to have him leave the ice on a stretcher. The fact that Bert challenged Moore to a fight actually suggests that he had no plans to assault Moore.

The intent was always to do the Darren McCarty on Claude Lemiuex thing. Extract retribution by giving him some lumps to discourage further behaviour that lead up to it. Of course the problem is when you punch someone in the head, especially with a sucker punch or punch from behind, it looks cool in movies and on TV but in reality it can have unpredictable and sometimes very serious results.

But the take away point with Bertuzzi should be that a top line all star player isn't going to put his career on the line and face potential criminal charges just to get even with another teams 4th line scrub. No player is going to do that really, it's just even more ridiculous to suggest a team is going to intentionally send one of their star players out to end another players career. If that's the teams aim you would send someone like Brad May out to do it.

 

[4Twenty]

The intent was always to do the Darren McCarty on Claude Lemiuex thing. Extract retribution by giving him some lumps to discourage further behaviour that lead up to it. Of course the problem is when you punch someone in the head, especially with a sucker punch or punch from behind, it looks cool in movies and on TV but in reality it can have unpredictable and sometimes very serious results.

But the take away point with Bertuzzi should be that a top line all star player isn't going to put his career on the line and face potential criminal charges just to get even with another teams 4th line scrub. No player is going to do that really, it's just even more ridiculous to suggest a team is going to intentionally send one of their star players out to end another players career. If that's the teams aim you would send someone like Brad May out to do it.

If Brad May fought him instead of Cooke, the incident never happens.

 

[MS]

I think there were different degrees. The Matheson incident was also slightly different in that it was a different era, Matheson received a suspension (albeit a short one), he did reach out to Pettersson, and there were months between games. There was much less pressure from the media for the Canucks players to exact retribution.

Oh, I'm not saying it's exactly the same and it was obviously a diluted version in terms of intensity, but the emotions and actions of the Canuck players and frustration when Matheson didn't engage were a bit of a mirror of the Bertuzzi situation.

I'm sure there were a few guys who would have loved to have dropped Matheson, but they had more self-control than Bertuzzi and in this era guys know they'll be strung up with huge suspensions for things like that.

 

[Canucko]

Not to beat a dead horse here, but another big question that hasn’t been brought up is: why was Moore even out on the ice in a 9-2 game in the 3rd period?

Was it Hartley?

 

[Canucko]

It's not that difficult to assert that it was not premeditated. We're not dealing with an unbroken chain here. Say May said, "Ya there's definitely a bounty on Moore's head." How would you interpret that to mean? That Moore had a target on his back and the Canucks would look to hit him every chance they got? To try and fight him? I highly doubt most people would interpret that as they're literally going to have him leave the ice on a stretcher. The fact that Bert challenged Moore to a fight actually suggests that he had no plans to assault Moore.

I appreciate what you’re saying, but it’s not me asserting this. If I’m not mistaken, this was all named in a lawsuit that was eventually settled out of court.

 

[RandV]

Not to beat a dead horse here, but another big question that hasn’t been brought up is: why was Moore even out on the ice in a 9-2 game in the 3rd period?

Was it Hartley?

It's an awkward topic to bring up because people will just accuse you of making excuses but in hindsight one of the frustrating things with the whole sequence of events is there were numerous opportunities to prevent or mitigate the eventual disaster but everyone involved just kept letting it fester until it finally blew up.

 

[rypper]

Not to beat a dead horse here, but another big question that hasn’t been brought up is: why was Moore even out on the ice in a 9-2 game in the 3rd period?

Was it Hartley?

Tony Granato was the head coach.

 

[Cancuks]

Former Canuck Donald Brashear spotted working at Tim Horton's in Quebec.

Former NHL enforcer Donald Brashear is working at a Tim Hortons in Quebec

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

Former Canuck Donald Brashear spotted working at Tim Horton's in Quebec.

Former NHL enforcer Donald Brashear is working at a Tim Hortons in Quebec

Jesus christ. A job is a job I guess.

 

[MS]

Hard to feel too sorry for someone who made $15 million in his career and had a penchant for getting sued for assaulting people on the street.

 

[krutovsdonut]

Former Canuck Donald Brashear spotted working at Tim Horton's in Quebec.

Former NHL enforcer Donald Brashear is working at a Tim Hortons in Quebec

good for him. i hope this takes him in a positive direction.

 

[Bougieman]

He hit Churla right in the head with a deliberate flying elbow, putting all his strength into it. It's unthinkable that this would even happen in 2019 and if anyone did it today I honestly believe they'd be out for the season and there'd be talk of suspending them for multiple seasons.

Keith hit Daniel Sedin in the head with a flying elbow, and there wasn't even a suspension -- and it wasn't even "a hockey play" because the puck was nowhere near them. And this was when Daniel was one of the biggest stars in the game. He was never quite the same player again. This wasn't THAT many years ago, so yeah -- I think it is thinkable that this could happen in todays game with little repercussions.

 

[Jyrki21]

Keith hit Daniel Sedin in the head with a flying elbow, and there wasn't even a suspension -- and it wasn't even "a hockey play" because the puck was nowhere near them. And this was when Daniel was one of the biggest stars in the game. He was never quite the same player again. This wasn't THAT many years ago, so yeah -- I think it is thinkable that this could happen in todays game with little repercussions.

Keith did get 5 (regular season) games, but it was a frustrating reaction for an intentional act.

 

[Hit the post]

Former Canuck Donald Brashear spotted working at Tim Horton's in Quebec.

Former NHL enforcer Donald Brashear is working at a Tim Hortons in Quebec

Lol.

Apparently they mixed up pictures with Brashear for George Laraque (sp?).

 

[Jay Cee]

I just mentioned that on Twitter to them. Real bang up job reporting.

Here let's tell the country how much this guy f***ed up his life and oh for good measure we will put up a picture of some other black guy cause what's the difference right?

 

[mathonwy]

Former Canuck Donald Brashear spotted working at Tim Horton's in Quebec.

Former NHL enforcer Donald Brashear is working at a Tim Hortons in Quebec

Potentially unpopular opinion.

If not for hockey, there would have been a pretty good chance that Donald would have been working at TH earlier in his life as it sounds like he kinda got dealt a crap hand to begin with.

A jobs a job.

Money is important. Being happy with yourself is more/most important.

Good luck to Donald.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

it's kind of insane to compare the compassionate rock bottom stories people wrote about joe murphy or kevin stevens, or if you prefer a fighter bob probert, and the pointing and laughing at brashear.

and then the NP article ends for no reason with "Recently, he appeared in court in Quebec City to face charges of mischief and drug possession." i'm surprised they didn't call the cops to his home and get him shot.

 

[MS]

it's kind of insane to compare the compassionate rock bottom stories people wrote about joe murphy or kevin stevens, or if you prefer a fighter bob probert, and the pointing and laughing at brashear.

and then the NP article ends for no reason with "Recently, he appeared in court in Quebec City to face charges of mischief and drug possession." i'm surprised they didn't call the cops to his home and get him shot.

Brashear's actions over the years haven't exactly made him a sympathetic character, unfortunately.