Flyers' overrated young blueliners

[seadawg]

I think it is too early to say much about Sanheim and Hagg. I don't know what the expectations were when they were drafted, but at least they are playing a regular shift in the NHL. A LOT of highly ranked dmen don't ever make it to the show.

If you ask me, a lot of teams would be envious of Philly's success at drafting dmen. There are very few teams that currently have on their roster 4 dmen that they drafted playing a regular shift for them.

As for Provorov, if you don't realize that he is a very good top-pairing dman who can impact the game at both ends of the ice, then I don't give your opinion much credit.

 

[Flyers1928]

what a brutal post, provorov had 17 goals last year tied for 1st among D. Sanheim has been best D this year

 

[BillNy]

Provorov played 22 minutes a night with no one to shelter him as a 20 year old and scored 30 points. Next.

I don't really have a side on Provorov cuz I haven't paid enough attention to him, but "played minutes" is a dumb argument because sometimes you play a lot of minutes while getting absolutely caved in (Phaneuf/Gunnarsson pairing in Toronto played LOADS of minutes, all getting their brains beaten in in their own zone), and points by defensemen are kinda bullshit because they're more about "which defenseman got to play on the top powerplay," or "who got the most minutes playing with the top line scorer."

That said, the Flyers are pretty good, so it's hard to imagine they've been burning that kind of ice time on someone who sucks, and Provorov's points are (very) largely at even strength. Not having seen a ton of Provorov specifically, and knowing that uhh it's sorta hard to decipher the Corsis on that roster, I gotta assume based on those factors, and the fact that the market isn't usually that wrong, and isn't wrong all that often, that Provorov is probably pretty damn good. I also always liked Sanheim in junior/AHL, and his Corsis so far are insanely good, so I think the premise of this thread is a little off. Maybe "Robert Hagg looked like a better prospect than he was" is a better title? (Also this means less than nothing, but three games into his NHL career, Samuel Morin actually has insanely good Corsis too lol).

 

[mja]

Flyers have the kind of team that should be playing like Toronto but instead Hakstol wants them to have the most passive forcheck and half-ass the trap?

It's absolutely infuriating. He also dishes out crazy ice-time to total plugs whose main attribute is that they play a "heavy" game with plenty of "snot" & "balls" while younger guys with high end skill routinely get benched towards the ends of games even when they've been the teams' best players the whole damned game. He did it with Ghost, he's still doing it with Konecny, and now he's doing it to Sanheim. Sanheim's starting to become a monster out there but still has trouble getting a shift late in a close game, especially if the Flyers have a 1 goal lead.

 

[StoneHands]

Thanks for the reverse jinx thread. This is exactly what Provy and the Flyers need.

Provorov (top 10 pick) is clearly an elite defenseman. He's struggled at times this year but he's playing 25 minutes a game with no defensive help against every teams top lines. At 21 that's tough to handle. He'll be fine.

Ghost (3rd round pick) is what he is, an incredible offensive defenseman. His defense has come a long way and he's very good in some areas and still bad in others but overall he's average in his own end.

Sanheim (Mid 1st rounder) is in his first full season and looks better every game. He has 5 points in 9 games (46 point pace) and has very good possession numbers despite not getting great zone starts.

Hagg (Mid 2nd round pick) is a young 3rd pairing defenseman but he's been pushed into a top 4 role. Some Flyers fans hate him but I think he brings an edge that nobody other than Gudas brings so if he can play 17 minutes a game on the 3rd pairing he would be fine.

Myers (undrafted) looks good in the AHL and could be another top 4 defenseman for the Flyers. He should get a shot at some point this season so time will tell.

Morin (mid 1st rounder) had been injured for basically the last year and a half. When he's had a chance to play he hasn't looked out of place. I don't expect him to be better than a 4-5 but that's all they need him to be.

Help me figure out what I'm missing here. The only player that isn't living up to expectations at this point is Morin and that's largely due to injuries. Are we really judging a bunch of guys with little to no NHL experience playing in front of two terrible goalies and an incompetent coach?

You want to know what the real problem is, just look between the pipes. I know people want to sound smarter than everyone else by finding a different reason thing go wrong but this is a case where the obvious is just obvious. The goalies combined have a .864 SV%, just try to wrap your head around that. You can put the blame on the team in front of them all you want but when your goalies are letting in a goal every 7-8 shots you're going to lose most games.

 

[C0DITH]

Provorov tied for D in goals last year at age at age 20..........while playing some of the hardest minutes on the team
Ghost had 65 points last year
Both Sanheim and Hagg looking really good this year.

OMG guys are having a rough start to the year....BUST....#joketopic

 

[CanuckistanFlyerfan]

Lets talk about it, Flyers spent a couple of high picks over the past couple of years drafting D prospects and outside of Gostisbehere selected in the third round of the 2012 draft, no one is looking very good... I recall watching Provorov at the Memorial cup, quietly thinking that this kid was soooo overrated while alot of people were praising him as a top end prospect lol, well about 3 years later, he didnt do anything to prove me wrong and doubt about my scepticism, vanilla player to say the least, he is average at everything, gets beat defensively and doesnt generate much offensively... Sanheim 17th overall, Morin 11 th overall, how disappointing it must be for the fans while they were all thinking that their scouting staff was building an elite blueline no long ago... My point here is not to troll anyone, Im just pointing out something that is becoming evident for any hockey fan, Flyers' young D core is simply not very good and certainly overrated! Lets hope Carter Hart becomes a solid number one, cause they really need it!

The fact that, 3 pages in, the only guy who's 'liked" your post is a guy who wastes half his life trolling Flyer threads should tell you your opinion is dead wrong.

As mentioned, no defenceman scored more goals than Provorov last season. He did that without being on the top pp and was Phillys best blueliner defensively. Ghost was the NHLs 4th leading scorer for defencemen. Sanheim is coming along just fine. Morin has had injury issues.

I'd say your thread is far more overrated than the Flyers blueline...and it's only got ONE like!

 

[King In The North]

It's absolutely infuriating. He also dishes out crazy ice-time to total plugs whose main attribute is that they play a "heavy" game with plenty of "snot" & "balls" while younger guys with high end skill routinely get benched towards the ends of games even when they've been the teams' best players the whole damned game. He did it with Ghost, he's still doing it with Konecny, and now he's doing it to Sanheim. Sanheim's starting to become a monster out there but still has trouble getting a shift late in a close game, especially if the Flyers have a 1 goal lead.

I haven't seen any reason why TK should be playing on the third line, he was doing well last year on the top 6

 

[CupInSIX]

Somebody watched 10 minutes of Flyers games, they see the wildly inconsistent scores from game to game and now they think they've got everything figured out by the 3rd week of October.

What compels someone to write off good young defensemen so early? Insecurity about their own team?

 

[StoneHands]

I don't really have a side on Provorov cuz I haven't paid enough attention to him, but "played minutes" is a dumb argument because sometimes you play a lot of minutes while getting absolutely caved in (Phaneuf/Gunnarsson pairing in Toronto played LOADS of minutes, all getting their brains beaten in in their own zone), and points by defensemen are kinda bull**** because they're more about "which defenseman got to play on the top powerplay," or "who got the most minutes playing with the top line scorer."

That said, the Flyers are pretty good, so it's hard to imagine they've been burning that kind of ice time on someone who sucks, and Provorov's points are (very) largely at even strength. Not having seen a ton of Provorov specifically, and knowing that uhh it's sorta hard to decipher the Corsis on that roster, I gotta assume based on those factors, and the fact that the market isn't usually that wrong, and isn't wrong all that often, that Provorov is probably pretty damn good. I also always liked Sanheim in junior/AHL, and his Corsis so far are insanely good, so I think the premise of this thread is a little off. Maybe "Robert Hagg looked like a better prospect than he was" is a better title? (Also this means less than nothing, but three games into his NHL career, Samuel Morin actually has insanely good Corsis too lol).

Regarding the bolded, I see what you're saying and I know you aren't really arguing it but it's easy to see that none of that is true about Provorov. He played 24 minutes a game for a playoff team last season and every night would draw the toughest matchups. He finished +17 and tied for 8th in ES points and 1st in goals among defenseman while playing less than 2 minutes a game on the PP (2nd unit). he was an absolute rock and earned those minutes.

 

[mja]

I haven't seen any reason why TK should be playing on the third line, he was doing well last year on the top 6

The moron took him off the first line last year before game 1 of the playoffs because he wanted someone heavier, never mind that TK was near a PPG on the top line, and hasn't really put him back, despite TK consistently being one of our most dangerous forwards. Meanwhile, Hak keeps trying to force Simmonds on the top line, despite the fact that it's never worked any time it's been tried in the prior 7 seasons.

 

[joe dirte]

Just like Provy, Ghost and Sanheim were hella overrated but are now really good.

Depends what you consider "really good".

Provorov is a good defenseman for sure. But I've seen Flyers fans refer to him as a top 10 dman in the NHL. That is, without a doubt, overrated. While on the ice he is outshot, outchanced, outCorsi-ed........

Ghost scores a lot, but he's a trainwreck in his own end, on the rare occasions he's even allowed on the ice in his own zone (although, he isn't actually allowed out there when it's in their own zone, most of the ice time he gets in his own zone follows a faceoff in the oppositions zone).

I understand you want to blame all this on the coach, and their d partners. And you may even be right. But until these guys actually prove they CAN dominate, you can't assume they will with a different coach. Because as of now, these guys may be young and playing big roles, but they're not really doing so successfully.

 

[joe dirte]

Regarding the bolded, I see what you're saying and I know you aren't really arguing it but it's easy to see that none of that is true about Provorov. He played 24 minutes a game for a playoff team last season and every night would draw the toughest matchups. He finished +17 and tied for 8th in ES points and 1st in goals among defenseman while playing less than 2 minutes a game on the PP (2nd unit). he was an absolute rock and earned those minutes.

He finished +17, with a goalie that had a .924 sv% with him on the ice.

He bled chances -
47.96 scoring chances for with him on the ice. Not good.
48.66 high danger scoring chances for with him on the ice. Not good.

If someone here has access to hockeyviz, and can pull his charts, I'm pretty sure you'll see some pretty nasty shot location charts. Everything I've seen says he (and just about all of these kids) bleed nasty chances.

 

[Atas2000]

Depends what you consider "really good".

Provorov is a good defenseman for sure. But I've seen Flyers fans refer to him as a top 10 dman in the NHL. That is, without a doubt, overrated. While on the ice he is outshot, outchanced, outCorsi-ed........

Ghost scores a lot, but he's a trainwreck in his own end, on the rare occasions he's even allowed on the ice in his own zone (although, he isn't actually allowed out there when it's in their own zone, most of the ice time he gets in his own zone follows a faceoff in the oppositions zone).

I understand you want to blame all this on the coach, and their d partners. And you may even be right. But until these guys actually prove they CAN dominate, you can't assume they will with a different coach. Because as of now, these guys may be young and playing big roles, but they're not really doing so successfully.

They have proven enough. On the ice, on the scoring sheet, even on your stats sheet. You try really hard to prove something that is not there.

 

[joe dirte]

Thanks for the reverse jinx thread. This is exactly what Provy and the Flyers need.

Provorov (top 10 pick) is clearly an elite defenseman. He's struggled at times this year but he's playing 25 minutes a game with no defensive help against every teams top lines. At 21 that's tough to handle. He'll be fine.

Ghost (3rd round pick) is what he is, an incredible offensive defenseman. His defense has come a long way and he's very good in some areas and still bad in others but overall he's average in his own end.

Sanheim (Mid 1st rounder) is in his first full season and looks better every game. He has 5 points in 9 games (46 point pace) and has very good possession numbers despite not getting great zone starts.

Hagg (Mid 2nd round pick) is a young 3rd pairing defenseman but he's been pushed into a top 4 role. Some Flyers fans hate him but I think he brings an edge that nobody other than Gudas brings so if he can play 17 minutes a game on the 3rd pairing he would be fine.

Myers (undrafted) looks good in the AHL and could be another top 4 defenseman for the Flyers. He should get a shot at some point this season so time will tell.

Morin (mid 1st rounder) had been injured for basically the last year and a half. When he's had a chance to play he hasn't looked out of place. I don't expect him to be better than a 4-5 but that's all they need him to be.

Help me figure out what I'm missing here. The only player that isn't living up to expectations at this point is Morin and that's largely due to injuries. Are we really judging a bunch of guys with little to no NHL experience playing in front of two terrible goalies and an incompetent coach?

You want to know what the real problem is, just look between the pipes. I know people want to sound smarter than everyone else by finding a different reason thing go wrong but this is a case where the obvious is just obvious. The goalies combined have a .864 SV%, just try to wrap your head around that. You can put the blame on the team in front of them all you want but when your goalies are letting in a goal every 7-8 shots you're going to lose most games.

You can try and blame it on the goalie, but last year, and continuing this year, the Flyers give up more scoring chances, and high danger chances, than they get.

The goalies may not be great, but they're clearly not the only problem.

Yes, yes, I know you're about to tell me that it's all the coaches that cause them to give up so many more chances than they get. It must be right? It can't be that Flyers fans are overrating their kids. No way. They're the bestest.

 

[NYRKing]

Strange thread. I hate defending flyer garbage, but can't agree with this one. I mean, have the haters in this one actually watched Provorov and Ghost? They're actually quite incredible. The defensive liabilities of Ghost are way overblown, but he is an O d-man and will never be counted on as a shutdown. Provorov on the other hand is 21? He thinks the game at an elite level already and has time to mature defensively. As others have said, Sanheim just turned pro and Morin is injured, though I don't think the latter lives up to the draft spot.

Either way, the two reasons for this thread are (1) Flyers young d group, especially on this site, has been discussed ad nauseam so it feels like they're old news (2) they're not good, but that's due to A) horrendous goaltending B) lack of good vet d-man C) poor forward depth

/thread

 

[joe dirte]

They have proven enough. On the ice, on the scoring sheet, even on your stats sheet. You try really hard to prove something that is not there.

oh??? What have they proven? That they get outplayed regularly?

 

[Atas2000]

oh??? What have they proven? That they get outplayed regularly?

Are you watching games?

 

[StoneHands]

He finished +17, with a goalie that had a .924 sv% with him on the ice.

He bled chances -
47.96 scoring chances for with him on the ice. Not good.
48.66 high danger scoring chances for with him on the ice. Not good.

If someone here has access to hockeyviz, and can pull his charts, I'm pretty sure you'll see some pretty nasty shot location charts. Everything I've seen says he (and just about all of these kids) bleed nasty chances.

According to HockeyReference his goalies had a .918 SV% at even strength when he was on the ice which is not good so his goalies definitely weren't bailing him out. Regardless, in one post you say Ghost is a trainwreck defensively but conveniently don't mention it here when trying to make it seem like Provorov isn't good defensively. Is it possible that the "trainwreck" defender is the cause for those scoring chances? How do the charts say defenders perform with and without Provorov? Which side of the ice are the majority of the shots and chances coming from?

I know you like to play with stats and all, that's a great tool, but actually watching games can be a good thing too. You can watch Provorov play and see that he's good. Check the box scores and see that the results were good. But instead, let's use hypothetical like shots and chances to form an opinion. It's not like a team with terrible possession numbers just won the Cup or anything.

 

[joe dirte]

Are you watching games?

YES.... I see what the stats tell us. I see a young, inexperience group that gets outplayed, outchanced, bleeds good chances.
they may have promise, but that's all it is right now. they're not very effective, RIGHT NOW.

 

[KingsHockey24]

They have Folin, they'll be fine.

 

[Atas2000]

YES.... I see what the stats tell us. I see a young, inexperience group that gets outplayed, outchanced, bleeds good chances.
they may have promise, but that's all it is right now. they're not very effective, RIGHT NOW.

Define effective.

Last season.

14th in the leaague in GA/GP. Two spots ahead of the Caps.

5th in fewest shots against per game.

You were saying?

 

[Critical13]

I actually agree with the general premise OP is using - that the Flyers D was overrated. I’ve long heard that the Flyers D was the defence version of Winnipeg’s offence - young and destined to be best in the league.

In reality, they are promising but none of the parts are where we thought they would be at and as a group, they no longer look like something we all want to emulate.

They will still be good, and I think many of us are still jealous. They just haven’t produced up to the insane hype we’ve all put on them.

 

[HabsTown]

I'd take vanilla Provorov in Mtl every single day. I love vanilla!

 

[Not My Tempo]

Provarov is the real deal. Ghost is a solid top 4 guy as well. Honestly the only place their other d prospects were overrated was this board when some Flyers fans convinced themselves they had 5 future top pairing guys in the pipeline