Flyers' overrated young blueliners

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StoneHands

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Feb 26, 2013
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at 5v5 that ranks pretty high.
You sure about that?

There were 19 goalies in the NHL (30 or more games) with a 5v5 SV% higher than .924%.

There were 114 defenseman with a higher oiSV% than Provorov. That's more than half the league.

As hard as you try to prove it, his goalies weren't bailing him out and no a a .924 5v5 SV% is not good.
 
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winnipegger

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Dec 17, 2013
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Wtf is the deal with Philly. These last several years I always expect them to be good. Just can't put it together.
 

TOGuy14

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Yeah, they were totally crazy for saying the 65 point defenseman with a career PPG of .676 is better than the 52 point career high defenseman with a career PPG of 0.466.

Pretty cherry picked numbers there. Haven’t reviewed recently but I seem to recall that Ghost was getting like 70% OZ starts and 6+ min PP in a highly sheltered role.

Anyway - Provo is a beast. Ghost is a good offensively but fully one dimensional, Morin and sanheim have definitely been overrated
 

StoneHands

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Pretty cherry picked numbers there. Haven’t reviewed recently but I seem to recall that Ghost was getting like 70% OZ starts
57.5% last season but that's irrelevant since it's been proven many times that zone starts have very little effect on numbers especially considering most shifts start on the fly. Unless you want to concede that Rielly is only off to a hot start because of his 60%+ OZone starts this year.

and 6+ min PP
Cut that almost in half and you got it. While Ghost did have WAY more PP points than Rielly he also had more ES points while playing fewer minutes.

in a highly sheltered role.
He played with Provorov for the majority of the season. Was Provy sheltered? Sure, they would replace Ghost with a more defensive defenseman late in games they were leading but that's kind of not his role. His defense improved as the season went along but a lot of that was probably due to ditching Brandon Manning in favor of Provorov as a partner.
 

Cootsfanclub

For Oskar!
Mar 29, 2013
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Provorov hasn't been playing at the level he was last season, which was a middling #1D level. Ghost is the best defenseman on the team right now and is very underrated defensively.
Sanheim is playing very well on both ends of the ice in his limited minutes. Hak had no idea what he was doing with him until recently.
The young dmen are not the problem, and not overrated.
 

bambamcam4ever

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Feb 16, 2012
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I'm pretty sure you're in a minority if you don't think he is. He slots in at 18 on my list if i remember correctly.

And i'll say it as long as i like because I actually watch him play. Ghost is absolutely more than passable in his own end, it's just that his errors are more high profile and obvious than the less flashy skaters who probably don't get the same level of critique.
Every defenseman, every game makes mistakes. The good ones do it less often, and more importantly, make less damaging errors. If Ghost is making obvious errors in his own end all the time, he is more than likely bad at defense.
 

StoneHands

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Every defenseman, every game makes mistakes. The good ones do it less often, and more importantly, make less damaging errors. If Ghost is making obvious errors in his own end all the time, he is more than likely bad at defense.
I think what he's trying to say is that when Ghost makes a mistake it's because he's trying to make a play and if he makes the play 9 times out of 10, people will see the 1 mistake. Someone like Hagg rarely tries to carry the puck out of the zone or make a stretch pass so he doesn't get stripped or have his passes picked off because instead he just ices the puck or puts it off the glass for a clear which comes right back into his zone 5 seconds later and while it's not a glaring mistake the constant d-zone time often leads to goals. It's the same reason why pointing to turnovers of puck carrying forwards is disingenuous. Ghost gives up goals and changes against when trying to turn defense into offense and when you make risky plays sometimes they don't work out. Hagg lets up goals because he's slow and gets beat to loose pucks, is out of position, backs in too far on odd man rushes, etc. Ghost isn't a great defender, I wouldn't even say he's a good defender but he's at least average which is fine since dmen that put up 60+ points don't all need to be shutdown guys too.
 

mja

Everything was beautiful, and nothing hurt
Jan 7, 2005
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This thread is so strange.

The average age of the 6 players we're talking about here (Ghost, Provorov, Morin, Hagg, Sanheim, Myers) is 22.5.

4 of them are NHL regulars. One is a 2nd year pro. The other has lost at least 1.5 seasons of development due to injuries. Of the NHLers, 0ne of them was a Calder runner-up, was 10th in Norris voting last year, and is third in PPG among active defensemen behind Karlsson & Klingberg. Another of them finished 9th in Calder voting and was a legit top pairing defenseman by his 20th birthday. The third guy played 49 games last season as a rookie, was near a PPG in the AHL when he was sent down, and now has 5 points in 9 games this season, and has arguably been the team's best defenseman for the last 4 or 5 games. The fourth, a second round pick, has now played 80 NHL games, and for whatever it's worth, has been one of the league leaders in hits since he's been in the league.

The Flyers hardly could have hoped for better outcomes.
 
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Danko

You have no marbles
Jul 28, 2004
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Wtf is the deal with Philly. These last several years I always expect them to be good. Just can't put it together.
Goaltending, Head Coach, PK Coach, System, Andrew MacDonald, Brandon Manning (Gone), Lazy First Period Starts.

Basically, most things other than Provorov, Ghost, and Sanheim. Hagg has been impressive this year, and Myers is on his way. Friedman who no one talks about, nearly made the team out of camp.

You know who is a problem on D? Andrew MacDonald, Radko Gudas and Christian Folin. Admittedly Gudas has been the better of the three so far. Which leads to another problem not discussed... These Young D who are on the team are being paired with garbage vets.
 

StoneHands

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I like to look at Norris votes as well, remind me how many Reily got last year? or the year before? Or the year before?
They'll tell you it's all about how difficult your minutes are. They will disregard how a player performs in those minutes because then they would have to acknowledge the fact that Toronto was a -24 over the last 2 seasons when Rielly was on the ice and a +57 when he wasn't.
 

C0DITH

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Throw Ghost out with Matthews/Marner and tell me he doesn't out produce Rielly.....
 

TomasHertlsRooster

Don’t say eye test when you mean points
May 14, 2012
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Pretty cherry picked numbers there. Haven’t reviewed recently but I seem to recall that Ghost was getting like 70% OZ starts and 6+ min PP in a highly sheltered role.

Anyway - Provo is a beast. Ghost is a good offensively but fully one dimensional, Morin and sanheim have definitely been overrated

How on earth is “career high in points” and “career points per game” cherry picked?
 

SmellOfVictory

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Jun 3, 2011
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Well, the jury is still out on Morin...his injury hasnt helped him.

Sanheim however, has looked good so far this season. No reason to call him a bust
I don't think anyone's calling him a bust; just overrated, as he had substantial hype in junior.
 

StoneHands

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Feb 26, 2013
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How on earth is “career high in points” and “career points per game” cherry picked?
Because he did it while getting 70% ozone starts (actually 57%) and playing 6+ minutes on the PP (actually 3:30) in a highly sheltered roll (actually played on the first pairing). There are cherry picked numbers and then there are lies.
 

Curufinwe

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Feb 28, 2013
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Lets talk about it, Flyers spent a couple of high picks over the past couple of years drafting D prospects and outside of Gostisbehere selected in the third round of the 2012 draft, no one is looking very good... I recall watching Provorov at the Memorial cup, quietly thinking that this kid was soooo overrated while alot of people were praising him as a top end prospect lol, well about 3 years later, he didnt do anything to prove me wrong and doubt about my scepticism, vanilla player to say the least, he is average at everything, gets beat defensively and doesnt generate much offensively.

He generated the most goals in the league by a defenseman just last season. Are you only six months old by any chance?

NHL.com - Stats
 
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Curufinwe

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Feb 28, 2013
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Wtf is the deal with Philly. These last several years I always expect them to be good. Just can't put it together.

That's funny coming from a fan of a Winnipeg team that had one playoff appearance and zero playoff wins from 11-12 till 16-17. Surely you have some familiarity with the concept of a bubble team?
 
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