GDT: Flames @ Panthers: Matinee Madness

Status
Not open for further replies.

Gaebriel

Registered User
Jan 17, 2004
1,058
108
DC
I like how Calgary's young players are producing despite a veteran core that isn't that great.

But we still have fans on here who get offended every time someone points out that our young guys aren't producing jack ****.

See? Young guys around the league don't exactly need Sidney Crosby on their line to produce. And, shocker, these teams are getting better because their young players are getting better!

Our team, on the other hand, continues to be mediocre because the young players who put on this franchise's jersey don't believe in getting better. They either stay the same or become worse. Fortunately, we don't have a terrible record yet this year because our real franchise player is a 35-year-old goalie who can still play at an elite level.

The question is why do our draft picks never really pan out? I would hesitate to blame the scouting, it's not like Barkov, Huberdeau, Gudbranson etc were all projected as 2nd rounders and we came out of nowhere to pick them. If we hadn't taken them it's likely they would have only dropped a position or two.

You can blame the scouts for not finding players in the later rounds, but again it's not like other teams were picking them up. Everyone points to Detroit drafting quality players in the later rounds as an example of good scouting, but if you really thought Pavel Datsyuk was going to be a hall of famer then why did you wait until the 6th round to take him? That's a scouting failure in my book.

So is it the systems and the coaching? If the coaching is the problem you would expect our draft picks to blossom elsewhere once they leave. Is there a consistent pattern of that happening? I don't know, I haven't run the numbers. Niklas Hagman had better numbers after he left here, but not amazing or anything. I mean, go through our high draft picks and really look at what they did after leaving here.

Weiss has been often injured, but even when he was playing he wasn't scoring on a much better Detroit team.

Krajicek played 5 seasons on 3 different teams after Florida and then bounced out of the league.

Bouwmeester has never put up the same numbers he put up here; he can't even crack 7 goals a year let alone the 12, 15 and 15 and 40+ pts he had here.

Horton's production has been basically the same in Boston and Columbus.

Olesz only played 16 games in the NHL after Florida and had 2 points.

David Booth fell off the face of the earth but I guess you could say he was never the same after the injury.

Kenndal McArdle had 0 pts in 9 games for Winnipeg, and is out of the league.

Frolik's career best seasons are still with Florida, though he came within 3 points of his career high this last season in Winnipeg. Still, he was relegated to the bottom lines in Chicago and given the ice time back in Winnipeg basically went back to what he was when he was here.

Keaton Ellerby has done nothing special since leaving here.

Markstrom was just as terrible behind a better Vancouver team as he was here.

Kulikov, Gudbranson, Bjugstad, Howden, Huberdeau, Barkov and Ekblad are of course all still here.

So why are our picks always terrible? Are they bad picks or did we turn them into bad players? If we turned them into bad players it must have been permanent because none of them really went on to play at a significantly higher level than they did here. I guess the real test would be to try and find some picks that Florida made who got traded before they ever played here and see how they ended up developing. I don't know of anyone off the top of my head.

Kuba only played a handful of games here before he went on to have a pretty solid career elsewhere so maybe one person? Alex Auld was traded before he played any games here but he turned out to be a career backup and nothing special. Kvasha had a career best 51 pts with the Islanders but that looks like a pretty big abberation considering his point totals were 25, 25, 20, 38, 26, 21 and 11 the rest of his career. I'm looking down the list of all time Florida draft picks who have played NHL games and nobody really sticks out at me.

I don't know that there is a real answer or that we'll ever have the data to say with certainty.
 
Last edited:

I am not exposed

Registered User
Mar 16, 2014
22,131
10,577
Vancouver
You are showing the exact problem with a fanbase now, you bash a player because you should bash him and just notice the bad things he does, not all the good. Flash has not been bad this season, but at the same time not good, but has has been better then a few forwards that played today.

I agree with this. Flash hasn't been that bad overall. Just his goalscoring. We need more from him though!
 

Erick*

Guest
What does that have to do with our young guys? Doesn't matter who developed who... And kuli been one of our best d man this year and still getting better... Like I said takes time and just pointing out kuli should prove that...not babying them but it's a fact that u continue to ignore... Im still waiting for u to point out a 19 year old center in his second year coming off an injury playing 1st line center and contributing ... While holding his own against others best?..... Waiting waiting.......... Oh ya only thing that matters is points I forgot... Not who scores more than the other team

How is he contributing? You must really like kool-aid.
 

I am not exposed

Registered User
Mar 16, 2014
22,131
10,577
Vancouver
Again, Giordano is player they developed. So, again, the fact that the Panthers haven't developed such a player is just a knock on the Panthers organization at the end of the day.

Kulikov should be as good as Giordano by now. He's not. Or is judging a player on (what is this now, Kuli's 5th or 6th year) unfair too? Please baby the core some more.

I was really harsh on Kulikov, but he's turned it around this year. He's start to look like a first round pick.
 

FLpanthers16

#CatsAreComing
Jan 30, 2014
7,053
1,402
Yeah its just alot of frustration all over the board atm and im one of them..... So why not close this thread mods so we can get some breathing room and forget this game ;)
 

vendetta

#CatsAreComing
Mar 22, 2011
14,725
4,772
Edmonton
I don't know why you waste your time arguing with half of the posters on here. People are Jaded, maybe its just desperate hope that Barkov and huberdeau will live up to what they are supposed to be. Facts are facts. They haven't produced and huberdeau has been bad for quite some time now. Can they turn that around? Maybe.. Prob not.

Ya probly not they r fully developed haha laughable
 

GrumpyKelly

Registered User
May 15, 2011
14,195
5,494
Bottom of a bottle
So why are our picks always terrible?

It's definitely a development issue, look no further than Edmonton. How many #1 picks they have again? THe problem is they make those guys carry the team, much like Barkov is expected, way too early. And others before. Some guys can handle it, we'll see I guess how Barkov will.
 

jrockett1096

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
1,381
156
Miami
www.miamiestatebuyers.com
The question is why do our draft picks never really pan out? I would hesitate to blame the scouting, it's not like Barkov, Huberdeau, Gudbranson etc were all projected as 2nd rounders and we came out of nowhere to pick them. If we hadn't taken them it's likely they would have only dropped a position or two.

You can blame the scouts for not finding players in the later rounds, but again it's not like other teams were picking them up. Everyone points to Detroit drafting quality players in the later rounds as an example of good scouting, but if you really thought Pavel Datsyuk was going to be a hall of famer then why did you wait until the 6th round to take him? That's a scouting failure in my book.

So is it the systems and the coaching? If the coaching is the problem you would expect our draft picks to blossom elsewhere once they leave. Is there a consistent pattern of that happening? I don't know, I haven't run the numbers. Niklas Hagman had better numbers after he left here, but not amazing or anything. I mean, go through our high draft picks and really look at what they did after leaving here.

Weiss has been often injured, but even when he was playing he wasn't scoring on a much better Detroit team.

Krajicek played 5 seasons on 3 different teams after Florida and then bounced out of the league.

Bouwmeester has never put up the same numbers he put up here; he can't even crack 7 goals a year let alone the 12, 15 and 15 and 40+ pts he had here.

Horton's production has been basically the same in Boston and Columbus.

Olesz only played 16 games in the NHL after Florida and had 2 points.

David Booth fell off the face of the earth but I guess you could say he was never the same after the injury.

Kenndal McArdle had 0 pts in 9 games for Winnipeg, and is out of the league.

Frolik's career best seasons are still with Florida, though he came within 3 points of his career high this last season in Winnipeg. Still, he was relegated to the bottom lines in Chicago and given the ice time back in Winnipeg basically went back to what he was when he was here.

Keaton Ellerby has done nothing special since leaving here.

Markstrom was just as terrible behind a better Vancouver team as he was here.

Kulikov, Gudbranson, Bjugstad, Howden, Huberdeau, Barkov and Ekblad are of course all still here.

So why are our picks always terrible? Are they bad picks or did we turn them into bad players? If we turned them into bad players it must have been permanent because none of them really went on to play at a significantly higher level than they did here. I guess the real test would be to try and find some picks that Florida made who got traded before they ever played here and see how they ended up developing. I don't know of anyone off the top of my head.

Kuba only played a handful of games here before he went on to have a pretty solid career elsewhere so maybe one person? Alex Auld was traded before he played any games here but he turned out to be a career backup and nothing special. I'm looking down the list of all time Florida draft picks who have played NHL games and nobody really sticks out at me.

I don't know that there is a real answer or that we'll ever have the data to say with certainty.

You can go farther back starting with Rob Neidermeyer and Jovo. I didn't like those guys even back then and I celebrated the Jovo trade like you couldn't believe when he left and he played better in Van and Phoenix. Rob became basically a checking line center the rest of his career after leaving here. He had all the physical tools to be a player but he didn't have the head for goal scoring or the instincts for it. The bottom line is the draft is a crap shoot unless you have a generational talent there like a Eric Lindros or Crosby. Barkov could be a left handed Mats Sundin or a Viktor Kozlov. Its all up to him in his head and his heart how good he wants to be. At the end it comes down to that. Its hard to know what every player has inside him so I don't put all the blame on the team for the bad luck with drafting.
 

SoupyFIN

#OneTerritory
Nov 7, 2011
41,382
3,380
Yeah its just alot of frustration all over the board atm and im one of them..... So why not close this thread mods so we can get some breathing room and forget this game ;)
We don't have post-game threads (at least during the 3 years that I've been posting here), so that's why the GDT stays open for a day or two after the game, depending when the next game takes place of course.

We're counting on that the talk stays civil so that there's no reason to close these prematurely.
 

Gaebriel

Registered User
Jan 17, 2004
1,058
108
DC
It's definitely a development issue, look no further than Edmonton. How many #1 picks they have again? THe problem is they make those guys carry the team, much like Barkov is expected, way too early. And others before. Some guys can handle it, we'll see I guess how Barkov will.

If that's the reason, then they should just fold the team because that is never going to change in Florida. This team will never attract enough quality players in free agency in order to have a good enough team where they can afford to bring their draft picks along slowly and into a winning environment early in their careers.
 

Givememoneyback

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Oct 10, 2007
23,591
11,813
You can go farther back starting with Rob Neidermeyer and Jovo. I didn't like those guys even back then and I celebrated the Jovo trade like you couldn't believe when he left and he played better in Van and Phoenix. Rob became basically a checking line center the rest of his career after leaving here. He had all the physical tools to be a player but he didn't have the head for goal scoring or the instincts for it. The bottom line is the draft is a crap shoot unless you have a generational talent there like a Eric Lindros or Crosby. Barkov could be a left handed Mats Sundin or a Viktor Kozlov. Its all up to him in his head and his heart how good he wants to be. At the end it comes down to that. Its hard to know what every player has inside him so I don't put all the blame on the team for the bad luck with drafting.

I wouldn't mind a youngish Kozlov. Although, that would still require a Bure (even Valeri) or (peak) Jokinen to make room for. This team just has an odd mix between underperforming youth and blasé top six veterans. Focusing on the latter, guys like Flash, Bergenheim, Jokinen, Upshall are expected to provide stability for the kids when they are, at best, 3rd liners on a solid team (Boyes is somewhat in-between). How Bolland was supposed to help is beyond me.
 

barkovcanfinnish

remember to breathe
Sep 22, 2014
4,946
3,108
Chicago, IL
Development isn't the issue. It's the on-ice decisions they make. They are being waaaaay too cute and passive when they have the puck. We gotta play a simple game. Too much passing. Too many brainfarts.

Trying to thread passes through 3 players isn't gonna go well too often.
 

jrockett1096

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
1,381
156
Miami
www.miamiestatebuyers.com
I wouldn't mind a youngish Kozlov. Although, that would still require a Bure (even Valeri) or (peak) Jokinen to make room for. This team just has an odd mix between underperforming youth and blasé top six veterans. Focusing on the latter, guys like Flash, Bergenheim, Jokinen, Upshall are expected to provide stability for the kids when they are, at best, 3rd liners on a solid team (Boyes is somewhat in-between).

Viktor had some success in the NHL but he was looked as an incredible and massive underachiever in his career. I would say he had better tools than Barkov has now or maybe will ever have. He's was that talented. Again its between the ears and the heart that sets guys apart. Kozlov never took advantage of all those elite skills in the NHL and though his career numbers look pretty decent it really wasn't for his talent level that was just thru the roof. No way do I want Barkov to take that path.
 

Gaebriel

Registered User
Jan 17, 2004
1,058
108
DC
I wouldn't mind a youngish Kozlov. Although, that would still require a Bure (even Valeri) or (peak) Jokinen to make room for. This team just has an odd mix between underperforming youth and blasé top six veterans. Focusing on the latter, guys like Flash, Bergenheim, Jokinen, Upshall are expected to provide stability for the kids when they are, at best, 3rd liners on a solid team (Boyes is somewhat in-between). How Bolland was supposed to help is beyond me.

Kozlov was drafted by the Sharks and while he had his career best numbers when he played here if you look at the totality of his career he was basically a 15 goal 20-40 assist guy his entire career. He cracked 20 goals twice and 40 assists once. Both Weiss and Horton were better when they were here.
 

Mogo

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Jun 26, 2002
24,963
9,396
This is what I've seen as well, last year's Barkov was still there defensively before the injury.

Oh, how it feels such a long time ago that Campbell was an all-star d-man and a great fit/mentor for Ekblad.

Wait, it was 3 games ago? Nevermind then.. :surrender

Campbell has been pretty horrible this season. He doesn't hustle back to defend. He uses his stick mostly to defend and it's been bad. He rarely carries the puck out of the zone like he use to. His positioning had been very weak.
 

I am not exposed

Registered User
Mar 16, 2014
22,131
10,577
Vancouver
I wouldn't mind a youngish Kozlov. Although, that would still require a Bure (even Valeri) or (peak) Jokinen to make room for. This team just has an odd mix between underperforming youth and blasé top six veterans. Focusing on the latter, guys like Flash, Bergenheim, Jokinen, Upshall are expected to provide stability for the kids when they are, at best, 3rd liners on a solid team (Boyes is somewhat in-between). How Bolland was supposed to help is beyond me.

Flash was a top 6 forward. Actually, so is Jokinen. Those two and Boyes can be 2nd line material for sure.

Agreed about Bolland.
 

vendetta

#CatsAreComing
Mar 22, 2011
14,725
4,772
Edmonton
Viktor had some success in the NHL but he was looked as an incredible and massive underachiever in his career. I would say he had better tools than Barkov has now or maybe will ever have. He's was that talented. Again its between the ears and the heart that sets guys apart. Kozlov never took advantage of all those elite skills in the NHL and though his career numbers look pretty decent it really wasn't for his talent level that was just thru the roof. No way do I want Barkov to take that path.

I agree but barkovs work ethic and drive is unmatched from what I've heard
 

Mogo

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Jun 26, 2002
24,963
9,396
You can go farther back starting with Rob Neidermeyer and Jovo. I didn't like those guys even back then and I celebrated the Jovo trade like you couldn't believe when he left and he played better in Van and Phoenix. Rob became basically a checking line center the rest of his career after leaving here. He had all the physical tools to be a player but he didn't have the head for goal scoring or the instincts for it. The bottom line is the draft is a crap shoot unless you have a generational talent there like a Eric Lindros or Crosby. Barkov could be a left handed Mats Sundin or a Viktor Kozlov. Its all up to him in his head and his heart how good he wants to be. At the end it comes down to that. Its hard to know what every player has inside him so I don't put all the blame on the team for the bad luck with drafting.

Kristian Huselius

The top 10 players this team has ever had are players we didn't even draft

You could argue about Robert Svehla but he was what 25 when we drafted him?

Either we suck at drafting, developing players or both
 

Givememoneyback

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Oct 10, 2007
23,591
11,813
Viktor had some success in the NHL but he was looked as an incredible and massive underachiever in his career. I would say he had better tools than Barkov has now or maybe will ever have. He's was that talented. Again its between the ears and the heart that sets guys apart. Kozlov never took advantage of all those elite skills in the NHL and though his career numbers look pretty decent it really wasn't for his talent level that was just thru the roof. No way do I want Barkov to take that path.

Having watched him, I'm not disagreeing--when he was on, you got glimpses of something close to Kovalev (he just owned the puck). But, when you look at his peak years as an analog for where Barkov might project, acknowledging the need for supporting (better) players is important.
 

ProjectPanthers

Podcast discussing the Florida Panthers
Mar 6, 2002
13,644
7,651
Towanna
linktr.ee
Bad teams lose games like this. We are, as of now, a bad team.

I think our defense is starting to come back down to earth and our offense may be picking it up. Unfortunately today was an awful display.

Campbell really is a shadow of his former self. We can almost put a lock on him getting beaten once a game for a goal against.

This roster needs a trade. None of our kids are getting anything done except for Bjugstad. I knew the scoring would come for him eventually because he was still creating chances and shooting often. Huberdeau even looked better today, along with Trocheck and Grimaldi, but Barkov was once again invisible. I don't even remember hearing his name today.

I'll leave it at that because I don't want to get attacked for calling out our young players again. It's concerning to say the least though that our "franchise center" is looking far from it right now. I hope he turns it around soon or we are in trouble.
 

ShootIt

Registered User
Nov 8, 2008
18,211
5,364
Campbell has been pretty horrible this season. He doesn't hustle back to defend. He uses his stick mostly to defend and it's been bad. He rarely carries the puck out of the zone like he use to. His positioning had been very weak.

I still think he wants out. Just would suck to see him leave when hes paired with Ekblad.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad