Confirmed Trade: [FLA/PIT] Bjugstad & McCann for Brassard, Sheahan, 2nd 2019, 4th 2019, 4th 2019

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ijuka

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For all that, the Penguins gave up two older UFAs-to-be playing at an AHL level, and a handful of later picks who won’t make an impact for three to four years at minimum.
That's not how you think about it. Those picks are currency. Penguins wouldn't have used them themselves anyway, it's about how you spend them.
Bjugstad has been really good, a puck magnet who tires out opponents and is good defending in all areas of the ice.
That must be why he has negative corsi and bleeds HDGs against.

And what do you mean with "whatever makes you sleep at night"? Do you think I'm a panthers fan?
 

Empoleon8771

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That's not how you think about it. Those picks are currency. Penguins wouldn't have used them themselves anyway, it's about how you spend them.

And the Penguins got a solid middle-6er that can play center or wing and a 22 year old top-9 LWer with top-6 upside. So what's the problem here? You're comically overrating draft picks if you seriously think that getting a 22 year old top-9 forward for a 2nd, a 3rd and 2 4ths is bad.
 

Mr Jiggyfly

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So, it's been 20 games now. Let's evaluate how the trade's gone in comparison to my expectations.

I expected Bjugstad to suck. He's sucked. Had some nice bounces early, scored a few more points than expected but overall, he still has sucked. I honestly think, considering opportunity and linemates, Riley Sheahan has likely been better for Panthers than Bjugstad for Penguins. Bjugstad just is a bad, bad player. So no surprise there.

So, let's say Sheahan and Bjugstad just about cancel each other out. taking into account the Brassard trade by Panthers and what they received off it(assuming Pens would have received the same package), the trade's McCann and a 6th for 4th, 4th, 2nd, 3rd. I think that's too steep for McCann. They could have gotten better value for that array of picks.

Panthers win.

Amazing what people can talk themselves in to when they aren’t living in reality.
 

Dipsy Doodle

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So, let's say Sheahan and Bjugstad just about cancel each other out. taking into account the Brassard trade by Panthers and what they received off it(assuming Pens would have received the same package), the trade's McCann and a 6th for 4th, 4th, 2nd, 3rd. I think that's too steep for McCann. They could have gotten better value for that array of picks.

If he keeps playing like he has, not only would I trade two 4ths, a 2nd, and a 3rd for McCann, I'd trade another two 4ths, a 2nd, and a 3rd for another player just like him. He's been outstanding so far.
 

RogerRoger

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I don’t know, I’m not trying to pile onto Florida. But, if they strike out on Panarin and only get Bob how dumb does this move look?
It's fine, Panarin wasn't counted on in my scenario of pushing Bjug down to the 4th line. If they strike out on Panarin, they can invest that money in the defense which is a bigger need imo. So depending on who they'd get on D, I could be quite happy with the end result even without Panarin.

Does it make sense to trade Bjugstad and McCann for picks? What is the chances that a late 2nd round pick, 3rd round pick (from trading Brassard), and two 4th round picks that any of them will even produce one player as good as Bjugstad 26 or McCann 22 let alone both. McCann only being 22 is the kind of guy you hope a pick will produce and you are looking 5 years down the road to even have a shot at a guy that good. Bjugstad’s contract is not bad at all for a guy coming off a 49 point season. In today’s NHL it is what you have to pay. Do you think the Panthers will be able to get better bargains in the UFA market? Not likely because UFA’s almost always get overpaid.

Bjugstad seems like a great fit so far for our 3rd line Center and McCann looks like another Rust or better which is a great add for the Pens.

Bjugstad is coming a 49 points season where he got them on the first line. Without him on there, our first line has 74-77-54 (or 61 since Hoffman spends quite a bit of time on there). And I defended Bjugstad on the first line last season quite a bit but with his slow start at 1RW, the addition of Hoffman, and how well Barkov clicked with Vatrano...he became the 3RW and expendable. Bjugstad has never clicked with Trocheck, so he can't be on the 2RW. Very few wingers work well with Trocheck if we are being honest, so I can't fault Bjug for that. Then he was playing with McCann (or Borgstrom) on the 3RW and he was solid defensively, but he wasn't doing much offensively. 12 points in 32 games isn't good and it's even worse if you take away what he got from the first line and the PP time he got at the beginning of the season (being replaced on those by more productive players). You end up with something closer to 4 points in 16 games or so. That's also the rate he was scoring last season before being bumped to the first line.

So, one of the benefits of keeping your picks is that you don't have to overpay in UFA for 3rd liners that produce at a 30 points clip. Guys like Hawryluk, Tippett, Hunt, Malgin, Heponiemi are going to come in and give you similar production at a lower cost. Or you can always flip those 3rd and 2nd for other players like Hoffman or Vatrano. So having picks and not having Bjugstad's contract offer flexibility for the Panthers. Drafting is a numbers game, the more picks you have, the more chances you have of hitting on them and I quite like the picks the new staff has come up with the last few seasons. Heponiemi, Noel, and Gildon are coming along nicely for 2nd and 3rd round picks.

McCann was the price to pay for a 2nd rounder and to get rid of Bjugstad. I would have like to keep him but the team only played him at center and Barkov, Trocheck and Borgstrom were in his way. McCann being the 4C is a waste of talent imo. So I'm glad he got his opportunity elsewhere. The Panthers could have tried him on Barkov's wing, but Vatrano was tried before McCann got his chance there and Vatrano hit it out of the park. So I guess they viewed the deal to be better than what he was giving the team by being 4C or 3LW.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

The only way the Panthers win this trade is if the cap space opened up allows them to snag Panarin and Bobrovsky, and even then it’s just a win-win. Bjugstad has been really good, a puck magnet who tires out opponents and is good defending in all areas of the ice. Simon-Bjugstad-Hornqvist has been really good of late, while Bjugstad hasn’t had a single bad game. It’s too early to know either way with McCann, but he’s looking like “Sid and the twins” might be our first line for the next decade. He’s making great steps every game, has shown a fantastic attitude, and is exactly the kind of player to shoulder a lot of the puck retrieval work that will be key to allowing Crosby to be an offensive dynamo into his late 30s and 40s, if he chooses to play that long. Both are under team control and young.

For all that, the Penguins gave up two older UFAs-to-be playing at an AHL level, and a handful of later picks who won’t make an impact for three to four years at minimum.
The Cap flexibility and the picks are already a win for the Panthers even without landing any UFAs and if the deal is a win for the Pens as well, good for them. It doesn't affect the Panthers in the slightest though.
Good for Bjugstad, but the Panthers already have players that do a similar job and for less money. After he was moved, the third line production and zone control didn't falter but improved. Heck, McGinn showed up and has been out playing him. The Panthers have good depth at forward and Bjugstad isn't needed on the third line for the Panthers.
I'm not surprised that McCann is playing well with Crosby and I'm really glad he got a shot at playing with an elite guy. But he wouldn't have gotten the same shot here since Huberdeau and Vatrano are in the way at LW.
 
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RogerRoger

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I think part of the problem with McCann in Florida was that, the management saw him as a center rather than a winger. He wasn't really producing enough or making players around him better at top 6 center role. He has a slight tunnel vision and his overall skills make him better fit at wing. Behind Barkov and Trocheck it was hard for him and when he was given chances to play in a top 6 center role when either was injured, he wasn't simply taking his opportunity. And he wasn't defensively as strong as Barkov or Trocheck, so those they were even forced to carry the big load both in offense and defense when everyone was healthy. Sheahan is much more a traditional bottom 6 center and has been much better fit in Florida than McCann was at center and that has been the reason why it has allowed Barkov to focus more on his offense and scoring in the last few weeks. Now Barkov has risen to top 20 in NHL scoring. Since this trade he has scored 30 points in 20 games.
McCann is better defensively than Trocheck, he's just so bad at faceoffs that you can't really deploy him in the defensive zone. The switch to winger was necessary for him imo. (I agree with the rest of what you said though.)
 

letsgrowcactus

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I don’t know, I’m not trying to pile onto Florida. But, if they strike out on Panarin and only get Bob how dumb does this move look?
Moving away from Bjugstad is a win regardless of how he plays in Pittsburgh. If he shines, that's awesome for him but he needed a career restart. As for his 47 point season, that came when playing a big part of the season next to Barkov and they couldn't re-create that chemistry this year. For a third line winger, he's overpaid; as a 3C he just wasn't working out here for some reason. Plus despite his size he seems to be made of glass - maybe some of it is just bad luck but it's kind of a relief not to worry if/when he's going to get hurt again and if injuries will make him a detriment to the team like he was in 2016/17.

I do wish we could have kept McCann. Some fans seemed to dislike him because he came in the trade for future captain shutdown D playoff-star-that-shut-down-Tavares Erik Gudbranson. Also, the expectations on McCann were to play in the NHL right away and when he needed AHL time, people immediately saw him as a disappointment (kinda unfair with a 20 year old kid). Plus, like has been mentioned above, he never really showed much offensive potential - apart from a few flashes, he was always kinda "just there", "not hurting us but not helping". Which, again, isn't bad for a 22 year old kid but it seemed to turn fans against him.

I also think this is like a micro-retool? The 2016/17 team was supposed to make the playoffs - failed (Rowe the GM/coach took the majority of the blame, plus aging players like Jagr and Jokinen being meh/awful, plus we blamed injuries). 2017/18 was supposed to make the playoffs - failed, blamed it on injuries + learning new systems + bad luck when 96 points didn't get us in. 2018/19, we're again on the outside looking in - this year we're blaming the goaltending and the D to an extent, and I'm not saying our goaltending hasn't been horrendous and the n.1 issue but still. Something's got to change because this team is not getting it done and we're wasting years of Barkov-Trocheck-Huberedau and their sweet contracts, so for better or worse Bjugstad and McCann were the spare parts moved.
 
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Dominance

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It's fine, Panarin wasn't counted on in my scenario of pushing Bjug down to the 4th line. If they strike out on Panarin, they can invest that money in the defense which is a bigger need imo. So depending on who they'd get on D, I could be quite happy with the end result even without Panarin.



Bjugstad is coming a 49 points season where he got them on the first line. Without him on there, our first line has 74-77-54 (or 61 since Hoffman spends quite a bit of time on there). And I defended Bjugstad on the first line last season quite a bit but with his slow start at 1RW, the addition of Hoffman, and how well Barkov clicked with Vatrano...he became the 3RW and expendable. Bjugstad has never clicked with Trocheck, so he can't be on the 2RW. Very few wingers work well with Trocheck if we are being honest, so I can't fault Bjug for that. Then he was playing with McCann (or Borgstrom) on the 3RW and he was solid defensively, but he wasn't doing much offensively. 12 points in 32 games isn't good and it's even worse if you take away what he got from the first line and the PP time he got at the beginning of the season (being replaced on those by more productive players). You end up with something closer to 4 points in 16 games or so. That's also the rate he was scoring last season before being bumped to the first line.

So, one of the benefits of keeping your picks is that you don't have to overpay in UFA for 3rd liners that produce at a 30 points clip. Guys like Hawryluk, Tippett, Hunt, Malgin, Heponiemi are going to come in and give you similar production at a lower cost. Or you can always flip those 3rd and 2nd for other players like Hoffman or Vatrano. So having picks and not having Bjugstad's contract offer flexibility for the Panthers. Drafting is a numbers game, the more picks you have, the more chances you have of hitting on them and I quite like the picks the new staff has come up with the last few seasons. Heponiemi, Noel, and Gildon are coming along nicely for 2nd and 3rd round picks.

McCann was the price to pay for a 2nd rounder and to get rid of Bjugstad. I would have like to keep him but the team only played him at center and Barkov, Trocheck and Borgstrom were in his way. McCann being the 4C is a waste of talent imo. So I'm glad he got his opportunity elsewhere. The Panthers could have tried him on Barkov's wing, but Vatrano was tried before McCann got his chance there and Vatrano hit it out of the park. So I guess they viewed the deal to be better than what he was giving the team by being 4C or 3LW.


The Cap flexibility and the picks are already a win for the Panthers even without landing any UFAs and if the deal is a win for the Pens as well, good for them. It doesn't affect the Panthers in the slightest though.
Good for Bjugstad, but the Panthers already have players that do a similar job and for less money. After he was moved, the third line production and zone control didn't falter but improved. Heck, McGinn showed up and has been out playing him. The Panthers have good depth at forward and Bjugstad isn't needed on the third line for the Panthers.
I'm not surprised that McCann is playing well with Crosby and I'm really glad he got a shot at playing with an elite guy. But he wouldn't have gotten the same shot here since Huberdeau and Vatrano are in the way at LW.
Considering how expendable these guys clearly were for you, it’s pretty crazy to think about how Pittsburgh went from out of the playoffs to on fire and four points out of first place in the division, while Florida is...
 

Peat

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any update on Rust? how far away is he from returning?

They showed a video of him skating prior to the last game but that's all we know for now.

Miss you in Vancouver McCann....Our stud GM just flogged you off for no reason...not the only time we have given up on a young player, probably not the last win Dim Sum Jim at the helm

Is it true that he was traded partly because Benning thought he didn't need him after acquiring Sutter? I've seen an article saying as much, but dunno whether to trust it.

He's not great defensively either like someone like Cullen and you don't want him on the ice in the last seconds when you're defending a one goal lead. He can be tough to handle but I'm interested to see how it works, Pens are interesting to follow for Panthers now with Gudbranson who divided opinions there too.

Surprises me to hear this. He's looked good defensively here and last game, led 5v5 TOI for forwards against the Caps with crap zone starts and most of his starts coming against their 1st line. They've started double-shifting him, Horny and Cullen as a shutdown line too - it was on at the end vs Boston (where he pretty much played against Krecji's and Bergeron's line). I think the coaches really in Pittsburgh trust him in a defensive role.

Plus despite his size he seems to be made of glass - maybe some of it is just bad luck but it's kind of a relief not to worry if/when he's going to get hurt again and if injuries will make him a detriment to the team like he was in 2016/17.

Happily we're numb to injury worries by now :laugh:

Considering how expendable these guys clearly were for you, it’s pretty crazy to think about how Pittsburgh went from out of the playoffs to on fire and four points out of first place in the division, while Florida is...

Eh, its a lot easier to be a support piece on this team than most others. Not to mention Florida's forward corps is still loaded.
 

jvr32

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Surprises me to hear this. He's looked good defensively here and last game, led 5v5 TOI for forwards against the Caps with crap zone starts and most of his starts coming against their 1st line. They've started double-shifting him, Horny and Cullen as a shutdown line too - it was on at the end vs Boston (where he pretty much played against Krecji's and Bergeron's line). I think the coaches really in Pittsburgh trust him in a defensive role.
When I wrote he isn't great defensively,I didn't write he isn't fine (on the wing). If you expect to play him in a shutdown center role like a traditional 3C you're going to be disappointed. Crosby will spend more time on PK now.
 

jvr32

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Considering how expendable these guys clearly were for you, it’s pretty crazy to think about how Pittsburgh went from out of the playoffs to on fire and four points out of first place in the division, while Florida is...
The problems Panthers have have zero to do with the offense. It's like 75-25 on goalies and defense/defensive system.
 
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stepdad gaary

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can we stop saying things like "the trade is really this because after words they traded that guy for this guy and these picks and and then also traded that new guy for another pick?"

that shit is so stupid and pointless. The trade was what it was.
 

Peat

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I mean, that's kinda what he is doing right now.

Yup. Only part of it that he's not doing is the PK, and we've got 5 players on the roster the coaches trust there before getting into Sid (Cullen, Blueger, Rust, McCann, Aston-Reese) so its not a big issue.
 

RogerRoger

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Considering how expendable these guys clearly were for you, it’s pretty crazy to think about how Pittsburgh went from out of the playoffs to on fire and four points out of first place in the division, while Florida is...
Florida has AHL level goaltending, not something Bjugstad or McCann can change. Pittsburgh forward depth was obviously an issue for you guys, but it isn't for the Panthers. You raising that point really show how little you know about the Panthers and it really helps me understand why your take on the "winning of the trade" was so off.
 

stepdad gaary

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Florida has AHL level goaltending, not something Bjugstad or McCann can change. Pittsburgh forward depth was obviously an issue for you guys, but it isn't for the Panthers. You raising that point really show how little you know about the Panthers and it really helps me understand why your take on the "winning of the trade" was so off.

they'll use those draft picks they got in the trade on players who they will eventually trade to pittsburgh for their playoff run
 
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Peat

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Right now this looks like a win-win trade. Part of me wonders the Panthers couldn't have got better value when trading those guys, but sometimes you've just got to shrug and say "good enough".
 

Paulie Gualtieri

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His CF% rel is 0.1, so kinda average. But I expect him to increase it now that he has found the right spot in our roster and become more familiar with our system. But he's no Gudbranson who currently has a CF% rel of 10.9(!) so far ;)
 

Ryuji Yamazaki

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Right now this looks like a win-win trade. Part of me wonders the Panthers couldn't have got better value when trading those guys, but sometimes you've just got to shrug and say "good enough".

It was a fantastic return.

It would've been nice to keep McCann but we're still pretty deep at forward. Had to get rid of Bjugstad and he had negative value.

Picks are nice, Brassard did nothing impressive but turned into a pick, and Sheahan has been solid in the bottom 6.
 
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