Fitness and Nutrition, Rep VI

[Sorinth]

It all matters, the space used to grow could be used for something else too.

Yes but when talking about the environmental impact it matters a whole lot less then most other things.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Looking strictly and m² is a fairly meaningless measure when talking about environmental impact. For example the CO2 produced is much more important then acreage used and for sure beef is way ahead everything else in that category. But on the flip side having a plowed field for growing crops vs a field for grazing field will increase soil erosion, so that's a plus for having animals. You'd also have to factor in things like where farms will get their fertilizers if the availability of cow manure was drastically reduced, how increased pesticide use would impact the environment, etc...

There's a lot more complexity to it then looking at a couple charts and saying this is better then that.

You have to remember that you are growing crops to feed your livestock as well. In fact, it takes about 12-14 lbs of feed to produce 1 lbs of meat so you are actually growing more fields to produce meat.... plus all that soy/corn/grain could be used to feed humans as well...

ETA

In terms of grass grazed, that actually requires more land and more water... as well it is a privilige for the elite and not a viable option for feeding 8 billion people.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Soy is pretty good, I agree, but soy requires transformation that brings it to meh levels too.

I'll say it again, unless youre sourcing locally, you are not doing enough no matter what you eat.

This is essentially an appeal to futility fallacy. And it is widely accepted that removing animal foods from your diet is the single most impactful thing we can do from a water/land/CO2 standpoint...

 

[Mrb1p]

This is essentially an appeal to futility fallacy. And it is widely accepted that removing animal foods from your diet is the single most impactful thing we can do from a water/land/CO2 standpoint...

Yes, it is, by people who don't bother digging much deeper. Fact is, it won't matter much if you're buying rice and tofu, but I agree it will if you grow your own rice and tofu, LOL.

 

[Kriss E]

Sure it's more efficient to get your protein from say eggs than lettuce, but that's a silly discussion, noone is replacing their eggs with lettuce. Folks replace their protein with protein, it's generally pulses/beans, and as we can see it is just a ridiculously more efficient protein source from an environmental perspective (and healthier).

Well that was the point of the study, and it claimed that soybeans would be less damaging. That being said, it also states the differences are nowhere near what some are claiming it to be. And not looking at the nutritious aspect of things when discussing land/water is a bit silly.

The problem with Today is there is simply too much information available. I can pretty much claim anything and find a study that will back it up. It can be a pretty wild claim too like eggs are like cigarettes...And people will believe that crap because well, they want to believe it as they are not interested in discussions but more focused on feeding their own beliefs.
It's true for all sides of the coin.

One thing I can say, like Sorinth just mentioned, there is no way things are as simple as looking at a couple studies. There are a ton of things that go into any kind of farming.
I do not believe the planet would be a better place if the entire planet became vegan over night.
So, one would argue it would be a step by step process, okay, but I am sure unforseen problems would rise up along the way as they do with anything.

Bottom line, eat balanced, as organic as possible, don't restrict yourself of natural food unless you have actual intolerances/sensitivities.

 

[Mrb1p]

Well that was the point of the study, and it claimed that soybeans would be less damaging. That being said, it also states the differences are nowhere near what some are claiming it to be. And not looking at the nutritious aspect of things when discussing land/water is a bit silly.

The problem with Today is there is simply too much information available. I can pretty much claim anything and find a study that will back it up. It can be a pretty wild claim too like eggs are like cigarettes...And people will believe that crap because well, they want to believe it as they are not interested in discussions but more focused on feeding their own beliefs.
It's true for all sides of the coin.

One thing I can say, like Sorinth just mentioned, there is no way things are as simple as looking at a couple studies. There are a ton of things that go into any kind of farming.
I do not believe the planet would be a better place if the entire planet became vegan over night.
So, one would argue it would be a step by step process, okay, but I am sure unforseen problems would rise up along the way as they do with anything.

Bottom line, eat balanced, as organic as possible, don't restrict yourself of natural food unless you have actual intolerances/sensitivities.

Bottom line is just to take care of the planet a lot more if thats what you want. Don't just go blindly into the vegan thing, go into the zero waste movement instead, buy a bicylce, ditch the car, reduce your footprint, etc. Food is the easiest solution, just buy local and grow your own food as much as you can.

Nobody will tell me that owning 6 hen isn't good for the planet, that's just ridiculous.

 

[Sorinth]

You have to remember that you are growing crops to feed your livestock as well. In fact, it takes about 12-14 lbs of feed to produce 1 lbs of meat so you are actually growing more fields to produce meat.... plus all that soy/corn/grain could be used to feed humans as well...

Yes but that just changes the amount, if we stopped eating meat, the amount of land dedicated to crops would still increase. But it would certainly vary by animal which is why talking strictly beef and soy is inherently biased. Beef is probably the most inefficient and we would probably actually have less farmland if people went from beef to say lentils. But for other animals not so much.

In 2016 the per capita consumption of meat (Lbs)was
Beef: 56.5
Pork: 50.1
Poultry: 107.6
Seafood: 14.7
Per Capita Consumption of Poultry and Livestock, 1965 to Estimated 2018, in Pounds - The National Chicken Council

And if you check the link it shows the data from 1960 and what's interesting is that even though meat consumption is up 47lb since 1960, beef is actually down 7lbs.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Yes, it is, by people who don't bother digging much deeper. Fact is, it won't matter much if you're buying rice and tofu, but I agree it will if you grow your own rice and tofu, LOL.

You've only dug deep in enough to bury your head in the sand...

 

[Mrb1p]

You've only dug deep in enough to bury your head in the sand...

Pretty sure my footprint is smaller than yours and I eat more meat than you eat greens.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Yes but that just changes the amount, if we stopped eating meat, the amount of land dedicated to crops would still increase. But it would certainly vary by animal which is why talking strictly beef and soy is inherently biased. Beef is probably the most inefficient and we would probably actually have less farmland if people went from beef to say lentils. But for other animals not so much.

In 2016 the per capita consumption of meat (Lbs)was
Beef: 56.5
Pork: 50.1
Poultry: 107.6
Seafood: 14.7
Per Capita Consumption of Poultry and Livestock, 1965 to Estimated 2018, in Pounds - The National Chicken Council

And if you check the link it shows the data from 1960 and what's interesting is that even though meat consumption is up 47lb since 1960, beef is actually down 7lbs.

Beef is still king in North America... and Soy is the primary plant based protein sourced used in replacement type foods... that's not bias...

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Pretty sure my footprint is smaller than yours and I eat more meat than you eat greens.

And how the heck do you factor that?

 

[Sorinth]

Beef is still king in North America... and Soy is the primary plant based protein sourced used in replacement type foods... that's not bias...

Beef is king yet people eat twice as much poultry?

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Well that was the point of the study, and it claimed that soybeans would be less damaging. That being said, it also states the differences are nowhere near what some are claiming it to be. And not looking at the nutritious aspect of things when discussing land/water is a bit silly.

The problem with Today is there is simply too much information available. I can pretty much claim anything and find a study that will back it up. It can be a pretty wild claim too like eggs are like cigarettes...And people will believe that crap because well, they want to believe it as they are not interested in discussions but more focused on feeding their own beliefs.
It's true for all sides of the coin.

One thing I can say, like Sorinth just mentioned, there is no way things are as simple as looking at a couple studies. There are a ton of things that go into any kind of farming.
I do not believe the planet would be a better place if the entire planet became vegan over night.
So, one would argue it would be a step by step process, okay, but I am sure unforseen problems would rise up along the way as they do with anything.

Bottom line, eat balanced, as organic as possible, don't restrict yourself of natural food unless you have actual intolerances/sensitivities.

I don't disagree with most of that, but I'll leave you with this: There's a reason why the smartest human beings on the planet are donating hundreds of billions of dollars to create lab grown meat, and that reason is that quite simply animal agriculture is not sustainable at our current population, and it will be almost completely replaced in the very near future.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Beef is king yet people eat twice as much poultry?

Poultry still uses 8 times as much land as pulses do...

 

[Sorinth]

I don't disagree with most of that, but I'll leave you with this: There's a reason why the smartest human beings on the planet are donating hundreds of billions of dollars to create lab grown meat, and that reason is that quite simply animal agriculture is not sustainable at our current population, and it will be almost completely replaced in the very near future.

People are also spending lots of money on urban farming. I guess growing food on farms is also not sustainable.

And for the record even when there is lab grown meat lots of people would still want "real" meat just like people want "organic" stuff.

 

[Sorinth]

Poultry still uses 8 times as much land as pulses do...

And how is that relevant to your claim beef is king and so using it for your data isn't biased?

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

And how is that relevant to your claim beef is king and so using it for your data isn't biased?

Because we could discuss poultry as well? Also, how come you didn't call out Mrp1 for his "bias" for bringing up rice when that isn't even less relevant to a protein vs protein discussion?

 

[Mrb1p]

I don't disagree with most of that, but I'll leave you with this: There's a reason why the smartest human beings on the planet are donating hundreds of billions of dollars to create lab grown meat, and that reason is that quite simply animal agriculture is not sustainable at our current population, and it will be almost completely replaced in the very near future.

Nothing is sustainable at our current level of population. Its not the agriculture that isn't sustainable, it's the population.

 

[Kriss E]

I don't disagree with most of that, but I'll leave you with this: There's a reason why the smartest human beings on the planet are donating hundreds of billions of dollars to create lab grown meat, and that reason is that quite simply animal agriculture is not sustainable at our current population, and it will be almost completely replaced in the very near future.

There is undoubtedly an overproduction of meat (and dairy), so investing in lab-meat isn't a bad thing. That isn't the debate though. The question is if we were to swap this overproduction to one of plant based produce, considering the nutrient elements, would it really change as much as some claim?
That study says not really, and as Sorinth mentioned, something as complex isn't going to be solved by a couple of studies.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

People are also spending lots of money on urban farming. I guess growing food on farms is also not sustainable.

And for the record even when there is lab grown meat lots of people would still want "real" meat just like people want "organic" stuff.

Sure, as long as their are selfish rich people there will always be a market for bad things... but the vast majority of the population will be eating lab grown meat very soon....

 

[Mrb1p]

Because we could discuss poultry as well? Also, how come you didn't call out Mrp1 for his "bias" for bringing up rice when that isn't even less relevant to a protein vs protein discussion?

Because there's protein in rice, and it was on my graph.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

There is undoubtedly an overproduction of meat (and dairy), so investing in lab-meat isn't a bad thing. That isn't the debate though. The question is if we were to swap this overproduction to one of plant based produce, considering the nutrient elements, would it really change as much as some claim?
That study says not really, and as Sorinth mentioned, something as complex isn't going to be solved by a couple of studies.

Are you replacing meat on your plate with lettuce or soy/beans? The information is quite clear.

 

[Kriss E]

Sure, as long as their are selfish rich people there will always be a market for bad things... but the vast majority of the population will be eating lab grown meat very soon....

I'd be willing to bet everyone of us here will be dead before the vast majority of the planet will be exclusively eating lab grown meat.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Nothing is sustainable at our current level of population. Its not the agriculture that isn't sustainable, it's the population.

This isn't true at all. We simply aren't living smartly.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

I'd be willing to bet everyone of us here will be dead before the vast majority of the planet will be exclusively eating lab grown meat.

The moment it becomes cheaper than factory farmed meat every fast food chain on the planet will switch to it, I have little doubt of that. And it really isn't that far off.