First 8 seasons: Jagr vs Crosby

[daver]

Which speaks as much to the quality of the NHL (or lack thereof) now as it does to Crosby's talent.

Interesting that you come up with this narrative now. You didn't include this in your OP.

By what measure can you say the quality of the NHL is lacking?

Btw, would you say that Jagr had only one season where he dominated? It looks like 1998 - 99 was the only year where he blew the competition away.

 

[daver]

Biggest problem with Jagr was his attitude (real bad) and haircut (happenin). Dont even know why you guys are debating this. Jagr wins hands down. Crosby? You serious?

Is this a serious post?

You pick the guy who barely cracked the Top 10 in scoring once until his 5th year?

You can debate who was the better hockey player after their 8th year in the league and Jagr wil be tough to be beat in a 11 or 12 year comparison but seriously, Crosby was better over their first eight years.

 

[livewell68]

Interesting that you come up with this narrative now. You didn't include this in your OP.

By what measure can you say the quality of the NHL is lacking?

Btw, would you say that Jagr had only one season where he dominated? It looks like 1998 - 99 was the only year where he blew the competition away.

1995-96, sure he lost the Art Ross to Lemieux but was 29 Pts ahead of 3rd leading scorer Sakic.

1997-98, he won the scoring title by 11 Pts (102 to 91 lead over Forsberg and Gretzky), that 11 Pts lead btw is a larger lead than any of the current Art Ross winners have enjoyed (in comparison Crosby won his only Art Ross by 6 Pts).

1999-00, Jagr won the Art Ross by 2 Pts despite missing "19 games" and beat the second leading scorer by those same 2 Pts despite playing 11 more games. Since you like to use projections and PPG, Bure had 94 Pts in 74 games and projected over 82 games = 104 Pts. Jagr had 96 Pts in 63 games and projected over 82 games = 125 Pts. That would have been even a larger gap than his previous season.

Even his 2000-01 within context was a dominant season, he scored 121 Pts which is more than anyone besides Thornton has scored over the last (Jagr scored 123 himself) since 1999-00. Sure he only won the Art Ross by 3 Pts but that also means he beat out Sakic who had a dominant season as well.

When Crosby can "actually" win 5 Art Ross trophies (4 in a row) and not just "be on pace" for them, come talk to me.

Are you seriously questioning Jagr's dominance to try and make Crosby look good?

Crosby so far is "could have, should have, would have".

Jagr just did, injured or not.

Since Jagr's best seasons (1994-95 onward come in seasons comparable to anything post-2005 in terms of scoring here are Jagr's seasons);

1994-95, 70 Pts in 48 games, Art Ross, pace of 120 Pts in 82 games

1995-96, 149 Pts in 82 games, 2nd in the Art Ross race

1996-97, 95 Pts in 63 games, 6th in scoring, 3rd in PPG, 124 Pts pace in 82 games

1998-99, 127 Pts in 81 games, Art Ross

1999-00, 96 Pts in 63 games, Art Ross, pace of 125 Pts in 82 games

2000-01, 121 Pts in 81 games, Art Ross

2005-06, 123 Pts in 82 games, 2nd in Art Ross, 2nd in PPG, all this at the tender age of 34

That is 7 total seasons in which he played at a 120 + Pts pace and before you harp on about how Crosby has done that 4 times (3 x in the last 3 seasons), he only did it once and that was 2006-07, otherwise he has played a full 99 games in the last 3 seasons. In comparison, Jagr scored 219 Pts between 1994-95 and 1995-96 in 130 games (better pace and a lot more games than just 99 games).

BTW, Jagr has never played less than 45 games "ever" and that was during the lockout shortened season of 2012-13 which is still more than Crosby played.

96 Pts in 63 games is better than 66 Pts in 41 games, or 37 Pts in 22 games or 56 Pts in 36 games, just saying.

 

[livewell68]

Those are just the 120 Pts pace seasons.

He also had 99 Pts in 80 games in 1993-94, pace of 101 Pts in 82 games.

His 102 Pts in 77 games in 1997-98 would have a pace of 109 Pts in 82 games (in what was one of the lowest scoring season in the NHL).

Jagr had 7 seasons in which he played at a 120 + Pts pace.

Another 2 more seasons in which he played at a 100 + Pts pace.

Another 3 more seasons in which he played at a 94 Pts pace or more.

He had 11 top 10 finishes, 5 1st place finishes, 2 2nd place finishes, 1 other top 5 finish.

His top 5 finishes (8x) are as long as Crosby has been in the league.


Crosby has a "long way" to go to reach those levels of elite and domination.

 

[daver]

Those are just the 120 Pts pace seasons.

He also had 99 Pts in 80 games in 1993-94, pace of 101 Pts in 82 games.

His 102 Pts in 77 games in 1997-98 would have a pace of 109 Pts in 82 games (in what was one of the lowest scoring season in the NHL).

Jagr had 7 seasons in which he played at a 120 + Pts pace.

Another 2 more seasons in which he played at a 100 + Pts pace.

Another 3 more seasons in which he played at a 94 Pts pace or more.

He had 11 top 10 finishes, 5 1st place finishes, 2 2nd place finishes, 1 other top 5 finish.

His top 5 finishes (8x) are as long as Crosby has been in the league.


Crosby has a "long way" to go to reach those levels of elite and domination.

Wow, an unnecessary resume of Jagr's accomplishments, what a shocker.

I don't care how long his peak was, Crosby is close to being just as good as him offensively. What he accomplishes with his talent remains to be seen.

 

[livewell68]

Wow, an unnecessary resume of Jagr's accomplishments, what a shocker.

I don't care how long his peak was, Crosby is close to being just as good as him offensively. What he accomplishes with his talent remains to be seen.

Says you. I would say Ovechkin is closer to Jagr offensively than Crosby is and even then Jagr's lead over Ovechkin is substantial.

Then again, you are shorthanded in this thread, not many have agreed with you if at all.

Crosby is not close to Jagr offensively, if Crosby only had one "full season" (2006-07)where he even scratched at Jagr's level of domination then I would say it's far from close, quite the opposite actually.

Crosby has 1 whole 120 Pts season, Jagr had 4.

Jagr had 6 "full seasons" (60 games or more or 75% of more of the games) where he had a 1.50 PPG or better, Crosby has 2.

 

[daver]

Then again, you are shorthanded in this thread, not many have agreed with you if at all.

In terms of the 8 year comparison. Reread the thread. I would say the most common response has been "it's Crosby but it's close because he was injured"

 

[livewell68]

In terms of the 8 year comparison. Reread the thread. I would say the most common response has been "it's Crosby but it's close because he was injured"

Actually I would say the consensus is 50/50 and the ones picking Crosby are saying "it's close" but it doesn't matter because I have proven my point that "Crosby doesn't blow Jagr out of the water in their first 8 seasons".

Now that you are backing off the fact that Crosby is close to Jagr offensively, you are trying to somehow convince me that you are correct in this argument.

I at least admit Jagr has his weaknesses and I understand his place in history but I also know that his level of dominance is a level that very few in the history of the game have ever reached or surpassed (Lemieux, Howe, Gretzky, Esposito, Orr, Beliveau and Hull) and that's it.

To try and convince the masses here that Crosby somehow is close to that level is not going to stick but that is for another thread all together.

 

[Rhiessan71]

In terms of the 8 year comparison. Reread the thread. I would say the most common response has been "it's Crosby but it's close because he was injured"

And?
It‘s still not in agreement with what you have been saying throughout this thread with your “clearly“ and “significant gap“ statements.

 

[livewell68]

And?
It‘s still not in agreement with what you have been saying throughout this thread with your “clearly“ and “significant gap“ statements.

Bingo!

 

[daver]

And?
It‘s still not in agreement with what you have been saying throughout this thread with your “clearly“ and “significant gap“ statements.

Crosby was clearly better on a per game basis but has been unlucky that he got injured which reduces "clearly better" to just "better".

Hopefully Crosby can avoid 100mph slapshots to the head and blindside head shots to remove the injury variable.

 

[daver]

Actually I would say the consensus is 50/50 and the ones picking Crosby are saying "it's close" but it doesn't matter because I have proven my point that "Crosby doesn't blow Jagr out of the water in their first 8 seasons".

Now that you are backing off the fact that Crosby is close to Jagr offensively, you are trying to somehow convince me that you are correct in this argument.

I at least admit Jagr has his weaknesses and I understand his place in history but I also know that his level of dominance is a level that very few in the history of the game have ever reached or surpassed (Lemieux, Howe, Gretzky, Esposito, Orr, Beliveau and Hull) and that's it.

To try and convince the masses here that Crosby somehow is close to that level is not going to stick but that is for another thread all together.

I'm not backing off this at all. IMO, he is one full season of dominance from matching Jagr's peak or prime , however you want to describe it. One season that will clear any doubts that his PPG over the last three years has been an anomaly. He will be in my mind dominating the league like Jagr did.

But then again, Crosby has shown that he cares more about winning than putting up numbers so that has to be factored in too.

 

[BudMovin*]

Crosby was clearly better on a per game basis but has been unlucky that he got injured which reduces "clearly better" to just "better".

Hopefully Crosby can avoid 100mph slapshots to the head and blindside head shots to remove the injury variable.

Per game doesn't matter as much as season total. You can't dominate the games that you don't play in. Jagr's was better because at the end of each season, his numbers were much better. Crosby is better on a per game basis. I'm not going to argue that. To say that Crosby has been better on a season vs season basis? LOL!

 

[livewell68]

I'm not backing off this at all. IMO, he is one full season of dominance from matching Jagr's peak or prime , however you want to describe it. One season that will clear any doubts that his PPG over the last three years has been an anomaly. He will be in my mind dominating the league like Jagr did.

But then again, Crosby has shown that he cares more about winning than putting up numbers so that has to be factored in too.

This irks me you know. You said how me putting his "prime accomplishments" was irrelevant and that it was long but then you turn around and make this statement?


For Crosby to "match" Jagr's prime, he needs more than "one full season of dominance". Jagr in 1995-96, 1998-99, 1999-00, 2000-01 and 2005-06 was better than Crosby at any time in his career. That means Crosby will need more than " 1 season", he will need about 3-5 more seasons of "dominance" to have matched Jagr's prime.

Crosby cares so much about winning that with his Cup favored teams, they bow out in the 1st, 2nd, 1st and 2nd rounds since winning the Cup.

 

[daver]

This irks me you know. You said how me putting his "prime accomplishments" was irrelevant and that it was long but then you turn around and make this statement?


For Crosby to "match" Jagr's prime, he needs more than "one full season of dominance". Jagr in 1995-96, 1998-99, 1999-00, 2000-01 and 2005-06 was better than Crosby at any time in his career. That means Crosby will need more than " 1 season", he will need about 3-5 more seasons of "dominance" to have matched Jagr's prime.

Crosby cares so much about winning that with his Cup favored teams, they bow out in the 1st, 2nd, 1st and 2nd rounds since winning the Cup.

I have clearly stated that whether he sustains that level of dominance is different from having the ability too. He has been dominating in PPG over the last three years but obviously needs to get more games at a similar level before one can comfortably say it for sure. For most people, one full season will be enough to confirm his domination.

Crosby took it upon himself to become a solid, if not very good two way player as that was what needed to win. I await your cherrypicking reply complimented with a smilie.

 

[livewell68]

I have clearly stated that whether he sustains that level of dominance is different from having the ability too. He has been dominating in PPG over the last three years but obviously needs to get more games at a similar level before one can comfortably say it for sure. For most people, one full season will be enough to confirm his domination.Crosby took it upon himself to become a solid, if not very good two way player as that was what needed to win. I await your cherrypicking reply complimented with a smilie.

Actually for most people in the History section, 1 full season will not be enough.

Malkin has had 3 dominant seasons (more than Crosby) and I don't see anyone claiming that he's reached Jagr's level of dominance.

Being good at more things doesn't necessarily mean you're a better player.

Jagr's puck possession game is rivaled by very few in the NHL and no one and I mean no one was stronger on the puck than he was in his prime. Jagr was never a defensive liability and his superior puck possession game allowed him to keep the puck in the offensive zone and when he was on the ice, the opposing team was usually busy chasing him with the puck for Jagr to even need to play defense.

I can name about half a dozen players in the history of the game that were as good as Crosby offensively and much better defensively; Trottier, Messier, Clarke, Mikita, Yzerman and Beliveau and yet among those players, only Beliveau is clearly ahead of Jagr in both prime and career.

So with that said, your logic doesn't stick here. You can be a great offensive player and a great two-way player at the same time and it doesn't necessarily make you a better player than a one-dimensional player who is exceptionally gifted offensively (which is what Jagr is). After all, Jagr is the 5th best offensive player of all-time and the 4th best offensive forward of all-time. Crosby isn't even in the top 10 for that list and is nowhere near being among the top 10 best complete players either.

Just off the top of my head, here are 15 players that were more complete players than Crosby is.

1. Howe
2. Orr
3. Beliveau4. Bourque
5. Messier
6. Clarke
7. Trottier
8. Yzerman
9. Lindros
10. Potvin
11. Forsberg
12. Fedorov
13. Sakic
14. Gilmour
15. Lidstrom

and yet from that list, only the names in bold have a clear edge over Jagr in prime and overall with Bourque being the only other player where it's debatable.

So you make the deduction here.

 

[livewell68]

Another thing that will add to showing how Jagr is superior to Crosby offensively is this list.

The list is of all the times a player was both top 5 in goals and assists in the same season starting in 1979-80.

Marcel Dionne (1980/81)
Wayne Gretzky (1980/81)
Wayne Gretzky (1981/82)
Mike Bossy (1981/82)
Wayne Gretzky (1982/83)
Wayne Gretzky (1983/84)
Wayne Gretzky (1984/85)
Wayne Gretzky (1986/87)
Mario Lemieux (1987/88)
Mario Lemieux (1988/89)
Bernie Nicholls (1988/89)
Steve Yzerman (1988/89)
Wayne Gretzky (1988/89)
Mario Lemieux (1992/93)
Mario Lemieux (1995/96)
Jaromir Jagr (1995/96)
Mario Lemieux (1996/97)
Teemu Selanne (1998/99)
Jaromir Jagr (1998/99)
Jaromir Jagr (1999/00)
Joe Sakic (2000/01) Jaromir Jagr (2000/01)
Markus Naslund (2001/02)
Martin St. Louis (2003/04)
Jaromir Jagr (2005/06)
Daniel Sedin (2010/11)
Evgeni Malkin (2011/12)

Notice who shows up on that list the most after Lemieux and Gretzky?

Notice how Crosby never shows up on this very same list, but St.Louis, Daniel Sedin and Malkin do?

His 1999-00 season being the most impressive of all, he misses 19 games and still manages to finish both top 5 in goals and assists in the same season.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

At what point did this become about something other than Jagr's first eight seasons?

 

[BudMovin*]

At what point did this become about something other than Jagr's first eight seasons?

As soon as Daver started rambling about Mario and how Crosby is more dominant now than Jagr in any point in his career.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

As soon as Daver started rambling about Mario and how Crosby is more dominant now than Jagr in any point in his career.

Does that mean that everyone's run out of arguments related to the topic (and that it should be closed)?

 

[BudMovin*]

Does that mean that everyone's run out of arguments related to the topic (and that it should be closed)?

Yup...This thread has been going around in circles for pages now.

 

[livewell68]

At what point did this become about something other than Jagr's first eight seasons?

I'm simply responding to these statements:

I don't care how long his peak was, Crosby is close to being just as good as him offensively. What he accomplishes with his talent remains to be seen.

Btw, would you say that Jagr had only one season where he dominated? It looks like 1998 - 99 was the only year where he blew the competition away.

One season that will clear any doubts that his PPG over the last three years has been an anomaly. He will be in my mind dominating the league like Jagr did.

For most people, one full season will be enough to confirm his domination.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Yup...This thread has been going around in circles for pages now.

Good enough for me.