First 8 seasons: Jagr vs Crosby

[livewell68]

I thought of starting this thread because I've seen many people make assumptions on how Crosby has Jagr beat at this point in both their careers and how it's not even close. I have a need to show that it was a lot closer than what most people believe.

Crosby so far including this season has played 8 seasons in the NHL. In 8 seasons, Crosby has 238 goals, 427 assists for 665 Pts in 470 games. That is a PPG of 1.41. Overall he has 1 Hart, 1 Art Ross, 1 Pearson and 1 Rocket Richard. By season his overall scoring finishes are 6, 1, 31, 3, 3, 32, 177, 1st so far this year.

Now let's look at Jagr. In his first 8 seasons, Jagr played 581 games. In that time span he had 301 goals, 434 assists for 735 Pts for a PPG of 1.26. He had 2 Art Ross trophies and 2 top 2 Hart finishes (1 4th place Hart finish). By season, his overall scoring finishes are 78, 58, 29, 9, 1, 2, 5, 1.


The numbers are a lot closer than some believe as you see. Jagr also has the slow start all things considered; he was a rookie playing on a stacked team and getting limited ice time in his first 2 seasons in the NHL and he had to learn a new language. By Jagr's 4th season, he really closes the gap. He would play in 350 games in those 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th seasons combined. He would score 208 goals, add 307 assists and collect a total of 515 Pts. In that time span between his 4th to 8th seasons he averaged a PPG of 1.47.

Does Crosby really hold that big advantage that everyone seems to be talking about?

On a side note, despite Jagr's slow start to establish himself as a star, in his first full 11 seasons in the NHL (all with Pittsburgh mind you), he scored 1079 Pts in 806 games. That is a PPG of 1.34. Crosby's PPG of 1.41 is only 0.07 higher than Jagr's was in his first 11 seasons despite Jagr playing in 336 more games (which is a full 4 seasons worth of games more).

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[shadow1]

Sidney Crosby became the NHL's best player much quicker than Jaromir Jagr did, but has Crosby been as good as Jagr was in, say, 1995-1996 when he scored 149 points? Not in my opinion.

 

[Hardyvan123]

The only thing even keeping Jagr close to Sid in the 1st 8 years are sid's injuries.

Sid absolutely blows Jagr out of the water in their 1st 5 years and even for the last 3 when Sid played he was the best player in the NHL while Jagr often benefited from playing with Mario.

Raw stats also make the situation a bit murky, if one uses how each played against their peers, % of the 2nd scorer or adjusted stats it's not even close and no one is going to say that Jagr had better intangibles either.

 

[czechmate25]

Crosby couldn't tie Jagr's skates. If there was a prime Jagr playing in today's game (with all the PP's and no clutching/grabbing) Jags would put up 200 points a year.....and the majority wouldn't be secondary assists.

 

[Crease]

Crosby couldn't tie Jagr's skates. If there was a prime Jagr playing in today's game (with all the PP's and no clutching/grabbing) Jags would put up 200 points a year.....and the majority wouldn't be secondary assists.

Neither Prime Gretzky nor Prime Lemieux would put up 200 points a year in today's version of the game. Also we're comparing the first 8 years of their respective careers. Jagr arguably doesn't hit his prime until his 9th year. Crosby's first 8 years are very impressive (lack of individual hardware aside). He outperforms the likes of Sakic, Yzerman, Forsberg, etc. Can you make your case without relying on hyperbole?

 

[GuineaPig]

Crosby couldn't tie Jagr's skates. If there was a prime Jagr playing in today's game (with all the PP's and no clutching/grabbing) Jags would put up 200 points a year.....and the majority wouldn't be secondary assists.

I can't tell whether this post is meant to be satirical or not.

 

[Plural]

Crosby couldn't tie Jagr's skates. If there was a prime Jagr playing in today's game (with all the PP's and no clutching/grabbing) Jags would put up 200 points a year.....and the majority wouldn't be secondary assists.

Well, Crosby does not get secondary assists a lot. Actually, if i remember correctly he has the best first/secondary assist ratio of all top-tier players.

Jagr at his absolute best was better than Sid so far. (Mainly cause Crosby has had bad luck with injuries) To go and try to imply that Jagr and Crosby are somehow incomparable is borderline ridiculous.

I think i would lean towards Crosby. But if he wants to be better after all is said and done he is going to have to stay more healthy. But for these first 8 years I rather choose Crosby.

BTW Crease, I think Jagr had hit his prime in his 8th season. I think it is safe to assume that his prime started in his 4th/5th season.

 

[czechmate25]

Neither Prime Gretzky nor Prime Lemieux would put up 200 points a year in today's version of the game. Also we're comparing the first 8 years of their respective careers. Jagr arguably doesn't hit his prime until his 9th year. Crosby's first 8 years are very impressive (lack of individual hardware aside). He outperforms the likes of Sakic, Yzerman, Forsberg, etc. Can you make your case without relying on hyperbole?

Sure. Jagr was drafted on a stacked team that afforded the Pens the luxury of bringing him along slow. He saw mostly third line minutes his first few years (not b/c he wasn't talented enough to play first line, but b/c there was no need).

Conversely, considering the Pens basically "tanked" the season prior to Crosby's draft year, he was drafted on a "not so talented" team which enabled them to fullfill NHL's agenda and he was thrusted into first line minutes since day one.

Can someone break down TOI (both even strength and PP) between Jagr and Crosby during said years? To me, it would only seem logical if you have one guy playing over 20first line minutes a game vs a guy playing mostly third line minutes, it's not that much of a stretch to assume the latter wouldn't garner as many points.

Regarding 99 and 66, you are right. Both of those players in their prime wouldn't put up 200 points in today's game....they'd put up closer to 250.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Regarding 99 and 66, you are right. Both of those players in their prime wouldn't put up 200 points in today's game....they'd put up closer to 250.

League scoring levels are much lower now than they were when Gretzky scored 200+ and Lemieux approached 200. It doesn't make sense that these guys would score more, but everyone else would score less.

 

[Fred Taylor]

Crosby, not that close. He was the leagues MVP at 19, and barring injuries he would have 3 straight Art Ross trophies, that would be 4 in total. I would take a healthy current day Crosby over a prime Jagr, I think he should still win the Hart trophy this year, should still finish top 10 in points and probably top 5 in assists, and he also lead his team to 15 straight wins.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Crosby, not that close. He was the leagues MVP at 19, and barring injuries he would have 3 straight Art Ross trophies, that would be 4 in total. I would take a healthy current day Crosby over a prime Jagr, I think he should still win the Hart trophy this year, should still finish top 10 in points and probably top 5 in assists, and he also lead his team to 15 straight wins.

To add to this

From pretty much his sophomore year until now Crosby has been known as either one of the best (07-10) or THE best (10-13).

Jagr was part of the mix his first three seasons. In 93-94 you could argue he was a top 15 player in the league. In 94-95 he won the Art Ross, but I think most everyone would have taken Lindros, Lemieux and Gretzky over him. Not to mention Coffey, Chelios, Bourque, Hasek and probably Belfour too.

It wasn't until 95-96 that he really started to get credit. Yes, he was riding shotgun to a much superior Lemieux, but he still washed up the league by himself.

I'm not sure the opinion of him in 96-97, but in 97-98 he has established himself as THE best forward in the world.


In terms of reputation Sid's first 8 years destroys Jagr. Hell, it terms of rep Sid is probably top ten all time. Only he and Gretzky won the Hart as teenagers.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Only he and Gretzky won the Hart as teenagers.

Gretzky is the only one to truly win the Hart in the year of his 19th B-day.

 

[canucks4ever]

The only thing even keeping Jagr close to Sid in the 1st 8 years are sid's injuries.

Sid absolutely blows Jagr out of the water in their 1st 5 years and even for the last 3 when Sid played he was the best player in the NHL while Jagr often benefited from playing with Mario.

Raw stats also make the situation a bit murky, if one uses how each played against their peers, % of the 2nd scorer or adjusted stats it's not even close and no one is going to say that Jagr had better intangibles either.

In 1995 and 1998 Jagr won the art ross, but he needed lemieux's help in 1996 or 1997? Sorry not buying it. Put crosby on either the 1996 or 1997 team instead of jagr and he isn't scoring more than what jagr did.

Crosby is winning this largely based on 'what ifs'. Half way through the 1996-97 season, jagr was actually outscoring Mario. Then he got injuries and slowed down, but what ifs are only used to prop up crosby it seems.

 

[Pominville Knows]

Gretzky is the only one to truly win the Hart in the year of his 19th B-day.

What kind of odd statistcal tweak is that? Only children up to High-Schools finds birth year relevant over actual age and in this case Gretzky was born i January and Sid in August.

 

[FakeKidPoker*]

Crosby was behind Alex Ovechkin for most of those first 8 years.

I don't think it is fair to compare him to Jagr.

 

[shadow1]

Jagr often benefited from playing with Mario.

If anything, it's the opposite. The two Art Ross Trophies that Jagr won in his first 8 seasons came in years where Mario Lemieux either missed the entire season due to injury ('95) or was retired ('98).

Lemieux also barely played in '94 (22 games), a season Jagr scored 99 points in.

 

[Yamaguchi*]

Crosby was behind Alex Ovechkin for most of those first 8 years.

I don't think it is fair to compare him to Jagr.

great post, I agree -- Ovechkin was a strong competition for Crosby who is a very good product of the NHL marketing team.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Crosby couldn't tie Jagr's skates. If there was a prime Jagr playing in today's game (with all the PP's and no clutching/grabbing) Jags would put up 200 points a year.....and the majority wouldn't be secondary assists.

Even adjusted Jagr's peak was 145.

No freaking way he makes 200 points in the NHL today.

Zero.

None.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Crosby, not that close. He was the leagues MVP at 19, and barring injuries he would have 3 straight Art Ross trophies, that would be 4 in total. I would take a healthy current day Crosby over a prime Jagr, I think he should still win the Hart trophy this year, should still finish top 10 in points and probably top 5 in assists, and he also lead his team to 15 straight wins.

actually there is a pretty decent chance of top 3 assists and even top 5ish in points.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

Crosby couldn't tie Jagr's skates. If there was a prime Jagr playing in today's game (with all the PP's and no clutching/grabbing) Jags would put up 200 points a year.....and the majority wouldn't be secondary assists.

1993 and 1996 had some of the highest #'s of power plays in history.
In 1996, the average league wide for powerplays was 413, last year it was 271.
In 1993, the average league wide for powerplays was 443, only Crosby's first 3 years approach those numbers, in fact, it has gone down to the point that the average team has had under 300 ppo's per year the last 3 seasons. And teams most certainly clutch & grab Crosby.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

Crosby was behind Alex Ovechkin for most of those first 8 years.

I don't think it is fair to compare him to Jagr.

I'd disagree, even so, Jagr was clearly behind Lemieux and Gretzky for most of his first 8 years, and was arguably behind Sakic, Forsberg, Yzerman, Fedorov... so what?

 

[Hardyvan123]

If anything, it's the opposite. The two Art Ross Trophies that Jagr won in his first 8 seasons came in years where Mario Lemieux either missed the entire season due to injury ('95) or was retired ('98).

Lemieux also barely played in '94 (22 games), a season Jagr scored 99 points in.

Jagr was eased in as well, while Sid was the man and finished 6th in scoring in his rookie NHL season, even better than Mario did.

Injuries are the only thing that keep this even close, intangibles and playoffs Sid has a clear edge as well.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Jagr was eased in as well, then often played with Francis on the regular line and some really great PP guys,while Sid was the man and had lesser line mates and finished 6th in scoring in his rookie NHL season, even better than Mario did.

Injuries are the only thing that keep this even close, intangibles and playoffs Sid has a clear edge as well.

yes man

 

[Hardyvan123]

yes man

sorry thought it was an edit

 

[livewell68]

I'd disagree, even so, Jagr was clearly behind Lemieux and Gretzky for most of his first 8 years, and was arguably behind Sakic, Forsberg, Yzerman, Fedorov... so what?

Are you serious right now?

Fedorov had one season in which he played at a dominant level and that was 1993-94. Sakic's first great season was in 1995-96 when he scored 120 Pts, that same season Jagr outscored him by 29 Pts. As for Forsberg, his best season was in 1995-96 when he had 116 Pts and Jagr outscored him by 33 Pts. No matter how you look at it, thats too big a lead to overlook. Yzerman's best season (1988-89 with 155 Pts) adjusted his season is behind two of Jagr's seasons, both 1995-96 and 1998-99.

As for Jagr being clearly behind Lemieux and Gretzky, that's a no brainer. Who wasn't clearly behind them?