First 8 seasons: Jagr vs Crosby
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Plural
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Answer to your first question is no. I don't think Jagr could have put forth the same 18-year rookie season Crosby did. There is effectively one player in the history of this sport who could match up with that season. But he played in different league.
Second question is not as important. I am well aware of the exploits of Crosby in the past few years. The question right now isn't if he would have won the scoring race without injuries.
The real question is: how much value does Crosby's partial, albeit offensively superior, seasons account for. Nobody here is stupid. We know Crosby was the easy PPG leader in those seasons. We are just trying to put the right value to go along those seasons. Just like you see, it's not an easy thing to do.
I've never suggested using this as a variable in the comparison. Per game impact it's Crosby. You want to even things out with the injury angle, fine.
IMO, if Crosby puts up a dominant PPG this year and plays 70+ games, the injury card gets put away.
Just like Jagr could have produced better in his first 3 years if he got more minutes, wasn't European etc..but didn't.
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Nope, the injury card never goes away. Cause Crosby did actually miss those games. He will never get back those missed minutes/points.
If you are saying that per game impact Crosby is superior and in the same time you are acknowledging Jagr's superiority in durability, then what are we arguing here?
I accept that you think it is close between these two. I actually pick Crosby now. (Not sure which one is my pick tomorrow)
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates Of Arda
Funny, but no one is holding up Jagr's first three seasons as "could haves". On the other hand, every case being made for the Crosby's last three seasons are built on a mountain of "could haves".
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OK then. Let us completely leave out Crosby's PPG and Jagr's problems with Euro/US?
Also with the number of "zero" point games for Jagr, it's not hard to go back and take an educated guess in the game summaries for Jagr to see his 3 star selections would be much lower.
I haven't been using "what if" scenarios in the comparison. Most posters agree that Crosby was better on a per game basis over the 8 years.
Plural
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True. You have just been using Lemieux's 7th place in career points to make a point about how Crosby should be ahead of Jagr in their first 8 years.
A PER game basis. Crosby only plays about 75% of a season. Is he 20% more dominant than Jagr? Would you rather have 78 games a year of Jagr or 60 of Sid?
What do you mean leave out Crosby's PPG? Why isn't it relevant? Don't make me go to Mario again.
livewell68
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These are two questions that cannot be answered because we don't know.
If Jagr was given 1st line minutes (rather than 3rd and 4th lines duties), I can assure you though that he was putting up a lot more than 57 Pts that's for sure.
Does Crosby win the Art Ross trophy in 2 of the past 3 seasons, possibly.
As for calling Crosby's season as an 18 year old the second best season ever by an 18 year old is also not cut and dry. Lemieux among others also had an impressive run as an 18 year old so did Hawerchuk.
Maybe he just got lucky, or at least he wasn't bad defensively as an 18 year old but his -1 in his rookie season is pretty darn good for a guy who played over 20 MPG and would ahve been the focus of the opposition as he was the best scorer on that team by 44 points.
His plus/minus lead on Malkin by 14 in the playoffs may also simply be luck or variance.
He also has a 107-48 lead in regular season plus/minus from 07 onwards covering both of their time in the league.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points
For his career it appears that Sid has been better defensively by most metrics.
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates Of Arda
Funny, but I don't see "per game" in the thread title. All I see is "Jagr vs Crosby".
livewell68
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Exactly and the trend with Jagr in his first 8 seasons was, the more minutes and offensive responsibilities he got, the more his production increased. Isn't that ironic?
Plural
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saintpatrick said to you that could haves are irrelevant. The things you did only matter. Remember what you response to it was?
"Just like Jagr could have produced better in his first 3 years if he got more minutes, wasn't European etc..but didn't."
Now, if Jagr adapting in the NHL doesn't matter, why should Crosby's projected point finishes matter? Just saying.
Is that even a question? I'd rather my player contribute more over the course of a season than on a per game basis.
Plural
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Not an absolute formula. Depends.
What do you think on this particular Jagr vs. Crosby debate?
Both of those were contexts that, IMO, should be included in the discussion but the OP wanted to focus on numbers only.
Actually there is quite a difference between Mario and Sid.
Sid plays a 2 way game while Mario had to put up video game numbers to avoid being a liability at ES.
Mario is 4th all-time in short-handed goals. Not saying he was amazing defensively, but he wasn't Ovi bad.
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