First 8 seasons: Jagr vs Crosby

[daver]

Not an absolute formula. Depends.

What do you think on this particular Jagr vs. Crosby debate?

If an absolute like total production is used as a variable then why not PPG?

We are going in circles.

I think the majority feel Crosby was the better player based on the significant difference in PPG but some feel Jagr not getting injured as much closes the gap.

Fair assessment?

 

[Rhiessan71]

What do you mean leave out Crosby's PPG? Why isn't it relevant? Don't make me go to Mario again.

Why would it matter if you went to Mario again? Any point you have tried to make about any Mario comparison in this discussion has been shot down repeatedly and quite finally by multiple posters.

Stop trying to beat a long dead horse.

 

[BudMovin*]

If an absolute like total production is used as a variable then why not PPG?

We are going in circles.

I think the majority feel Crosby was the better player based on the significant difference in PPG but some feel Jagr not getting injured as much closes the gap.

Fair assessment?

I believe the majority think Jagr was better, judging by the lack of people coming to your aid in this discussion.

 

[Rhiessan71]

I believe the majority think Jagr was better, judging by the lack of people coming to your aid in this discussion.

I don't think that is actually the way it is. I believe it's more of a case of people disagreeing with all the "clearly" or "significant gap" between the two talk.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

If an absolute like total production is used as a variable then why not PPG?

Because total production is what helps a team win (You know, something that's kinda important in hockey? ) while PPG is the answer to trivia questions.

 

[livewell68]

I don't think that is actually the way it is. I believe it's more of a case of people disagreeing with all the "clearly" or "significant gap" between the two talk.

Precisely and because we know that this 8 year timeframe isn't even Jagr's best and since we don't know how well Crosby will play from here onward then we can all safely said that Jagr has had the better career so far and it is a significant gap right?

After all, Jagr's 1998-99, 1999-00, 2000-01 and 2005-06 seasons are a notch above what Crosby has done so far in his carer.

 

[Plural]

Both of those were contexts that, IMO, should be included in the discussion but the OP wanted to focus on numbers only.

Nope, both of those contexts have been talked (well, Jagr being from foreign country, not so much)
you just fail to acknowledge them.

 

[daver]

Precisely and because we know that this 8 year timeframe isn't even Jagr's best and since we don't know how well Crosby will play from here onward then we can all safely said that Jagr has had the better career so far and it is a significant gap right?

After all, Jagr's 1998-99, 1999-00, 2000-01 and 2005-06 seasons are a notch above what Crosby has done so far in his carer.

This is the type of post that keep bringing me back.

Your boy loses the "who was better after 8 years" debate. It is only close because Crosby got injured. You better hope he keeps getting injured cause he is trending to be better than Jagr, if he is not already.

 

[Plural]

If an absolute like total production is used as a variable then why not PPG?

We are going in circles.

I think the majority feel Crosby was the better player based on the significant difference in PPG but some feel Jagr not getting injured as much closes the gap.

Fair assessment?

I don't think we are going in circles. Well you are, but I am trying my best to not follow.

You are trying to use numbers as an absolute when they suit you and subjective analysis when it suits you. Trying to keep up with you is hard enough.

I've had enough of beers and Mario for one evening. Good night.

P.S. I believe I say it for all HF'ers, please, oh please don't go Mario again.

Edit 2:
Yeah, probably should have. But it was a bit funny wasn't it?

 

[livewell68]

This is the type of post that keep bringing me back.

Your boy loses the "who was better after 8 years" debate. It is only close because Crosby got injured. You better hope he keeps getting injured cause he is trending to be better than Jagr, if he is not already.

Which no one in the History section will agree to.

As you saw posted many times (I have yet to see you respond to that), you are shorthanded in this argument, some agree with Jagr being the better player in the first 8 seasons.

Need more proof, I can start another argument showing that Jagr beats Crosby resoundingly between seasons 5 to 8 but I'm not, I didn't want to be accused of cherry picking or selective stat using.

 

[Rhiessan71]

This is the type of post that keep bringing me back.

Your boy loses the "who was better after 8 years" debate. It is only close because Crosby got injured. You better hope he keeps getting injured cause he is trending to be better than Jagr, if he is not already.

I really don't think you understand the kind of seasons Crosby will need over the next 3 years for that "trend" to continue.

AND if I'm reading your comment about "if he is not already" correctly and you are already giving Crosby the career edge, then you have completely lost your freakin mind!

 

[daver]

I really don't think you understand the kind of seasons Crosby will need over the next 3 years for that "trend" to continue.

AND if I'm reading your comment about "if he is not already" correctly and you are already giving Crosby the career edge, then you have completely lost your freakin mind!

Right now, he may be just as dominant as Jagr was. One full season with a dominant PPG should clinch that. Whether that translates into a better career, we will have to see. His solid two way play needs to be considered too.

 

[livewell68]

Right now, he may be just as dominant as Jagr was. One full season with a dominant PPG should clinch that. Whether that translates into a better career, we will have to see. His solid two way play needs to be considered too.

Never. Crosby has only scratched at the levels of dominance Jagr was at consistently. At his very best (2006-07) Crosby was close to Jagr and a lot closer to a 34 year old Jagr (2005-06) than he is to 1995-96, 1998-99, 1999-00 or 2000-01 Jagr.

Crosby has yet to reach to levels and don't give me that half season bull crap. The half seasons thread has already established the fact that Jagr has had about 6 half seasons better than Crosby's 2010-11 season.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Right now, he may be just as dominant as Jagr was.

After 8 seasons, that's at least a possibility and what this thread is about heh

One full season with a dominant PPG should clinch that.

Uhhh no! It's going to take multiple full seasons to make that claim into a reality.

Like I just finished saying (and you stating this just proves my point), you really, truly do not comprehend the kind of seasons Crosby will need over the next 3 years to match, let alone surpass Jagr's 9th, 10th and 11th seasons.

 

[crabcz]

Different times, different circumstances. Jagr came from eastern Europe to a completely different culture, didn't know the language and never played the North American style of hockey. Crosby was groomed to be the Golden Boy from early age and didn't have to face any obstacles until the concussions.

If we count just actual on ice performances then Crosby was better - more consistent especially in the playoffs. Jagr was flashier at times (Crosby's highlight reel videos are underwhelming).

Crosby will have a hard time getting the stats Jagr has now though. He's not as resilient and missed a lot of games in his prime which is right now.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I'm more interested in seeing how Crosby will stack up against Jagr from 1998-'01. That is the next three years of Jagr's career and he just put the NHL on its ear at that time. Time will tell.

Time will tell yes, but Sid is only 25 (26 going into this seaons) and still in his prime and has a size able playoff resume lead in the first 8 years already.

 

[livewell68]

Time will tell yes, but Sid is only 25 (26 going into this seaons) and still in his prime and has a size able playoff resume lead in the first 8 years already.

Go back to my post where I compared their playoff numbers. Crosby missed the playoffs in his first season. Jagr was a rookie who's team made it to the Finals and so he played 24 games but only scored 13 Pts, take away his rookie playoff run and his numbers are 80 games, 47 goals, 47 assists and 94 Pts which is not every much less impressive than 105 Pts in 82 games ( I don't call that size able).

That's a 1.24 PPG to 1.175 PPG difference), or 105 Pts to 96 Pts difference in 82 games.

 

[Hardyvan123]

These are two questions that cannot be answered because we don't know.

If Jagr was given 1st line minutes (rather than 3rd and 4th lines duties), I can assure you though that he was putting up a lot more than 57 Pts that's for sure.

Does Crosby win the Art Ross trophy in 2 of the past 3 seasons, possibly.

As for calling Crosby's season as an 18 year old the second best season ever by an 18 year old is also not cut and dry. Lemieux among others also had an impressive run as an 18 year old so did Hawerchuk.

I'll just state the obvious here for last season, if Sid plays in 12 more games does anyone here really believe that he wouldn't have scored at least 5 more points?

Of course it's possible but he has never scored at that low of a rate in any 12 game stretch of his entire NHL career ( the lowest I could find was around 9 points in any 12 game stretch).

Also as good as Mario was in his rookie year it's pretty clear Sid was better, dido with Dale as surely some context is needed?.

 

[livewell68]

Their playoff resumes are very close really in their first 8 seasons.

 

[livewell68]

I'll just state the obvious here for last season, if Sid plays in 12 more games does anyone here really believe that he wouldn't have scored at least 5 more points?

Of course it's possible but he has never scored at that low of a rate in any 12 game stretch of his entire NHL career ( the lowest I could find was around 9 points in any 12 game stretch).

Which speaks as much to the quality of the NHL (or lack thereof) now as it does to Crosby's talent.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I don't think that is actually the way it is. I believe it's more of a case of people disagreeing with all the "clearly" or "significant gap" between the two talk.

Agreed, injuries does keep the 8 year comp close, without injuries it would be much more clear.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Go back to my post where I compared their playoff numbers. Crosby missed the playoffs in his first season. Jagr was a rookie who's team made it to the Finals and so he played 24 games but only scored 13 Pts, take away his rookie playoff run and his numbers are 80 games, 47 goals, 47 assists and 94 Pts which is not every much less impressive than 105 Pts in 82 games ( I don't call that size able).

That's a 1.24 PPG to 1.175 PPG difference), or 105 Pts to 96 Pts difference in 82 games.

You are only going to use raw numbers and no actual context like the numbers are the same for both eras?

Sid has been the face and focal point form day 1 on his Pens team, Jagr was a secondary player who scored some points on a stacked offensive team for at least up until 95-96.

No one is seriously going to rate Jagrs playoffs over his first 8 seasons ahead of Sid.

Sid leads the NHL playoffs in assists and points one year and goals in the next (along with an all time great of 31 points)

his 2 best playoffs wash out like this

20-6-21-27 (leads Pitt and NHL)
24-15-16-31 (2nd in NHL and team)

Here are Jagr's 2 best years in his first 8

21-11-13-24 (4th on his team)
18-11-12-23 (2nd on his team)

Both years Mario is the leader on his team in scoring and their is an Orr affect on Jagr's numbers, Sid isn't riding along anyone's coat tails in his 2 years.

In fact he is drawing the heavy match up against Detroit, which allows Malkin to score early in the series and after Dats comes back Malkin is stifled as well.

Just to put Jagr's 2 best offensive playoffs into context point wise they were the 23rd and 27th best playoffs in his 1st 8 years compared to his peers

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points

sids were 2nd and 7th, his 3rd best playoffs was 34th, Jagrs 3rd best wasn't in the top 100.

So don't try to mislead us that Sid and Jagr are close in the playoff resume in their 1st 8 years, they aren't.

Jagr BTW never does become an "elite" playoff performer in the sense that Sid has already done 2 times in his first 8 seasons.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Which speaks as much to the quality of the NHL (or lack thereof) now as it does to Crosby's talent.

Actually there were lots of great players and seasons in the NHL last year, the fact that Sid was only 5 points out from the Art Ross speaks to how great of a season he was having with that untimely slap shot.

 

[Plural]

I'll just state the obvious here for last season, if Sid plays in 12 more games does anyone here really believe that he wouldn't have scored at least 5 more points?

Of course it's possible but he has never scored at that low of a rate in any 12 game stretch of his entire NHL career ( the lowest I could find was around 9 points in any 12 game stretch).

Also as good as Mario was in his rookie year it's pretty clear Sid was better, dido with Dale as surely some context is needed?.

Of course Crosby would have scored 5 points. Most likely he would have scored 15 points. He got the reasonable amount notion from his season. Lindsay Award.

Also, I don't think many here besides livewell is denying that Crosby had the 2nd best 18 year old season ever. Well, maybe best. But no worse than 2nd.
I just don't think being 18 is so important in this situation. Is it really all that much different when Ovechkin comes from totally different environment and beats Crosby as a 20 year old? I bet the difficulties we are comparing here equal each other out.
Selanne coming in as late as 22 and ripping the league a new one in '93. That is not the same as a guy from Canada comes in as 22 in '93 scoring records. One thing that often tends to forget is that players from Europe were heavily influenced by the culture shock at that time. Russians have that even today, just take a look at Malkin.

 

[Killion]

Biggest problem with Jagr was his attitude (real bad) and haircut (happenin). Dont even know why you guys are debating this. Jagr wins hands down. Crosby? You serious?