Fire Tocchet

[XX]

Really the only way to meaningfully improve this roster in the offseason will be through major trades or a coaching change, or both.

If Chayka stands pat then he is easily fired, especially if every other team starts zooming on past. This Tocchet garbage is like trying to swim fully clothed with a weighted vest. Even he will have to see that eventually.

 

[Canis Latrans]

Didn't Hall indicate he wanted to finish the season out with the Coyotes? If he did say that, and was traded anyway, what does that do for future free agents determining if they want to come here? With a new owner, the market is stable enough that free agents can actually weigh all the other benefits to coming here for once, finally, and then you want to torch the team's reputation that they'll toss you aside even if you want to be there, give your all every game, all just so they can recoup a few assets. In the long run it's not remotely worth it. Hey look, the Coyotes finally got a star player, but they're so dysfunctional they couldn't even finish the season with him. Who is going to sign here in the future if that's the case?

Also, I still stand by Meruelo also being willing to wait out on the completion of the season before making a call on Tocchet.

 

[Jakey53]

One thing Chayka could do to kind of salvage the Hall trade, involve Hall in the conversation for a new coach IF he signs. If he has some input on who he thinks can help his game and turn them into a contender, that might be enough for him to stick around. Long shot but not sure what else they can do to convince him if he's on the fence.

Hall does not care who the coach is, he wants to win, go to a contender. We are not that. Having said that, Calgary is said to be a preferred destination for Hall, but are they much better off than the Yotes, or Edmonton? Going to any team does not gurantee Hall playoffs or a SC.

 

[Jakey53]

Didn't Hall indicate he wanted to finish the season out with the Coyotes? If he did say that, and was traded anyway, what does that do for future free agents determining if they want to come here? With a new owner, the market is stable enough that free agents can actually weigh all the other benefits to coming here for once, finally, and then you want to torch the team's reputation that they'll toss you aside even if you want to be there, give your all every game, all just so they can recoup a few assets. In the long run it's not remotely worth it. Hey look, the Coyotes finally got a star player, but they're so dysfunctional they couldn't even finish the season with him. Who is going to sign here in the future if that's the case?

Also, I still stand by Meruelo also being willing to wait out on the completion of the season before making a call on Tocchet.

Good post. A new coach and 4 or 5 new players and we could/might be much better. Hayton and Soderstom will be with the team next year. Richardson, Soderberg, Grabner, Fischer, Vinnie, Ness lead the list of players who may not be back next year.

 

[CNYCrunchfan1]

We will not make the playoffs next season without radical changes. To many better teams around us and the ones down this year(except the Kings) will be back in the mix as well. Our roster is crap. This is on Chayka.

 

[cobra427]

The major problem with making roster changes this summer is trying to understand what we have in our players. We need a 1C, that is easy, also not available. OEL and Kessel are disappointments but we can't really trade them anyway. The biggest issue to me is player evaluations. Tocc hasn't gotten the best out of many players and Chayka might have the wrong mix of players, too many small wingers as an example. How do you trade schmaltz or keller, they seem to be over paid? We have had several players leave AZ and have career years with other teams, Domi/Strome/Martinook as examples, could be others. Tocc either doesn't get the best out of his players or Chayka missing it on his evaluations.

Clearly the team has under performed long enough this year, that i think Tocc needs to go. Then what? You better hire an experienced proven NHL coach, not an assistant or an AHL coach, we need somebody like our last coach, Lavi/Gallant/Sutter. I am not saying we should hire one of those 3, but somebody proven at the NHL level. Muerello just gave Chayka an extension, so I doubt he is out too. I think the coach gets shot first and Chayka gets more time.

Tocc will say he didn't have the right mix of players which I think is partially true. Chayka will say Tocc didn't get the most out of the players he had, which I think is more true. Its too bad we likely miss the playoffs again this year.

 

[Jakey53]

The major problem with making roster changes this summer is trying to understand what we have in our players. We need a 1C, that is easy, also not available. OEL and Kessel are disappointments but we can't really trade them anyway. The biggest issue to me is player evaluations. Tocc hasn't gotten the best out of many players and Chayka might have the wrong mix of players, too many small wingers as an example. How do you trade schmaltz or keller, they seem to be over paid? We have had several players leave AZ and have career years with other teams, Domi/Strome/Martinook as examples, could be others. Tocc either doesn't get the best out of his players or Chayka missing it on his evaluations.

Clearly the team has under performed long enough this year, that i think Tocc needs to go. Then what? You better hire an experienced proven NHL coach, not an assistant or an AHL coach, we need somebody like our last coach, Lavi/Gallant/Sutter. I am not saying we should hire one of those 3, but somebody proven at the NHL level. Muerello just gave Chayka an extension, so I doubt he is out too. I think the coach gets shot first and Chayka gets more time.

Tocc will say he didn't have the right mix of players which I think is partially true. Chayka will say Tocc didn't get the most out of the players he had, which I think is more true. Its too bad we likely miss the playoffs again this year.

As I mentioned in another post is that most of us had the Coyotes missing the playoffs or a bubble team, and now we are talking about this crash and burn and pointing fingers at everyone. So, did the team under perform? Did they over perform earlier in the year? Would a different coach have done better? My thought and opinion is that a better coach could have gotten us to the playoffs this year, without Hall.

 

[Jamieh]

As I mentioned in another post is that most of us had the Coyotes missing the playoffs or a bubble team, and now we are talking about this crash and burn and pointing fingers at everyone. So, did the team under perform? Did they over perform earlier in the year? Would a different coach have done better? My thought and opinion is that a better coach could have gotten us to the playoffs this year, without Hall.

Here is sniper's post after a few pages in the points prediction thread:



Figure it's time for an update:

We had 36 total predictions. The highest was 101 and the lowest was 86. So nobody predicted we'd finish with fewer points than last season.

Crowd Sourced Coyotes Predicted Point Total: 93.83 (we'll call it 94)

Currently we are on pace for: 101.5

 

[Jakey53]

Here is sniper's post after a few pages in the points prediction thread:



Figure it's time for an update:

We had 36 total predictions. The highest was 101 and the lowest was 86. So nobody predicted we'd finish with fewer points than last season.

Crowd Sourced Coyotes Predicted Point Total: 93.83 (we'll call it 94)

Currently we are on pace for: 101.5

I guess my memory served me wrong. Old age.

 

[rt]

I wanted 42 wins and figured we’d be the best non-playoff team in the league. But then we picked up Hall. If that doesn’t add six points to your expectations then there’s zero reason to make trades to improve the roster. Adding a star player is supposed to equate to wins. That’s the entire f***ing point. So that pre-season prediction thread can get thrown out in the garbage.

 

[Matias Maccete]

Chayka is about to have traded away two top ten draft picks (Stepan/Raanta and Hall) AND Dylan Strome in his relatively short tenure as GM. Hall will walk as a UFA this summer, we’ll probably have to pay assets to get somebody to take Stepan because he’s worth less than half of his caphit and we won’t be offering Antti Raanta another contract. Next season is the end of the road for him. Given that we won’t make the playoffs this year, it sure feels like we gave those picks up for nothing at all.

All valid reasons why Tocchet and Chayka should go. I'm not saying they shouldn't be fired, I'm saying they won't because that's how this franchise works. We are fine with mediocrity. Mediocrity on the ice, easy vibes in the clubhouse, and lots of golf. It's the coyotes country club way. I'd love to be proven wrong.

 

[MIGs Dog]

All valid reasons why Tocchet and Chayka should go. I'm not saying they shouldn't be fired, I'm saying they won't because that's how this franchise works. We are fine with mediocrity. Mediocrity on the ice, easy vibes in the clubhouse, and lots of golf. It's the coyotes country club way. I'd love to be proven wrong.

We have a new owner who has been very successful in business. No idea what he's thinking, but likely will not tolerate mediocrity for long.

 

[CNYCrunchfan1]

I think most thought we would make the playoffs this year. Otherwise why get kessel or hall. If there was one season to get in it was this one with how topsy turvy it was. Chaykas been here what 4 years now? Its funny how Yotes fans always make excuses for this or that. Been doing it for years.

Also funny how other organizations have quicker turn around times and come up with great players or at least demand more. We demand less and get less...big surprise. Now go ahead and make more excuses. I'll wait...been waiting since 96.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

I do NOT blame Chayka for acquiring Hall. I blame him for NOT trading him at the TDL..

(just trying to picture the reaction of Doan in a hypothetical world where he's still playing and Hall gets traded at the deadline while the team's still in the race )

This, BTW, although I respect the hell out of you, is the quintessential post of a talented Fantasy GM who is not necessarily realistic. Yeah, it'll probably bite us, but, wow what a depressing message to have sent to the team and the fan base: "sorry, we blew it, we're giving up...but hey, I salvaged back a 3rd round pick in two years!"

 

[rt]

(just trying to picture the reaction of Doan in a hypothetical world where he's still playing and Hall gets traded at the deadline while the team's still in the race )

Come on. Like Chayka can't see past the artificial parity of the league and the loser point and the wildly disparate games in hand situation. Like he couldn't look at his team's last thirty games and the teams around him and project out some models. The team was NOT in the race. The team is NOT in the race. They are NOT making the playoffs. And it wasn't a single loss to the Florida Panthers that made it official. It was as true a week ago as it is today.

This, BTW, although I respect the hell out of you, is the quintessential post of a talented Fantasy GM who is not necessarily realistic. Yeah, it'll probably bite us, but, wow what a depressing message to have sent to the team and the fan base: "sorry, we blew it, we're giving up...but hey, I salvaged back a 3rd round pick in two years!"

That's hyperbolic and silly. He could have got a 1st this year plus a nice asset in addition to that. There is zero doubt about that.

 

[rt]

If anyone thought Chayka MIGHT have believed the team was still "In the Race" at the TDL, may I present the reason that would make him an idiot:

-Dec.1st - Feb.24th (TDL) (38 games) the Coyotes had the 6th lowest P% in the NHL

-Dec.17th - Feb.24th (TDL) (30 games) (Taylor Hall's debut) they had 7th lowest NHL P%

-Dec.23rd - Feb.24th (TDL) (27 games) the Coyotes had the 5th lowest P% in the NHL

-Jan.1st - Feb.24th (TDL) (22 games) the Coyotes had the 8th lowest P% in the NHL

-Jan.23rd - Feb. 24th (TDL) (15 games) the Coyotes had the 5th lowest P% in the NHL

^ they were the 6th worst team in the NHL from Dec.1 to the TDL. And there are no hot streaks in there or reasons to think they might be turning it around. It was dog shit segment after dog shit segment and it was absolutely clear that they were going nowhere.

If you are John Chayka, and it's the eve of the TDL and you look back at your season you can say, "We've been trash over the last 15 games. We've been trash over the last 22 games. We've been trash over the last 27 games. We've been trash over the last 30 games. We've been trash over the last 38 games."

And then we expect him to think "But we're STILL IN THE RACE!!!" ? If that's true he needs to be fired. Why would ANYONE think we were still "in it" at the TDL? It's beyond me how this fanbase didn't suddenly realize this until the Florida loss AFTER the TDL. And now people want to act like we're using hindsight? It's laughable. Anyone with a brain would have sold, sold, sold and fired, fired, fired. The team has been in a sustained free-fall since December.

If I cared more, I'd make a line graph showing CUMULATIVE P% by each GP over this season. It's been dropping like a rock. And Chayka reacted by doing literally nothing. He was either too scared, too stupid, or too proud. We've seen him be bold, so I don't think he was scared. He's usually the smartest guy in every room, so I don't think he was stupid. I think his big fat ego got in the way. And that's why we will find ourselves in July with no playoffs, no 1st round pick, and Taylor Hall.

Anyone who wants to act like that isn't a problem, just isn't paying attention.

 

[Jakey53]

Here is sniper's post after a few pages in the points prediction thread:



Figure it's time for an update:

We had 36 total predictions. The highest was 101 and the lowest was 86. So nobody predicted we'd finish with fewer points than last season.

Crowd Sourced Coyotes Predicted Point Total: 93.83 (we'll call it 94)

Currently we are on pace for: 101.5

Ok, so if it averages 94 pts. and we get 86-88 pts. should we be disappointed if 92 pts. would get us in? Being in first place for much of the first half, or near first kind of got everyone maybe thinking we were better than we really were. If our goal tending was not so damn good the first half RT may have been fired by the break. Our goal tending gave us and Chayka false hope. No playoffs is a failed season.

 

[Jamieh]

Ok, so if it averages 94 pts. and we get 86-88 pts. should we be disappointed if 92 pts. would get us in? Being in first place for much of the first half, or near first kind of got everyone maybe thinking we were better than we really were. If our goal tending was not so damn good the first half RT may have been fired by the break. Our goal tending gave us and Chayka false hope. No playoffs is a failed season.

You said not many expected playoffs but yet the posts said they did??

 

[BUX7PHX]

As I mentioned in another post is that most of us had the Coyotes missing the playoffs or a bubble team, and now we are talking about this crash and burn and pointing fingers at everyone. So, did the team under perform? Did they over perform earlier in the year? Would a different coach have done better? My thought and opinion is that a better coach could have gotten us to the playoffs this year, without Hall.

I think that is the most difficult part of this to figure out. Nothing in what was done in the offseason suggests that we should be a worse team. Also, we are actually a better defensive team this year, compared to last. We gave up 223 goals last year, and are on pace for 219. So, theoretically, everything is better, and yet we have gotten worse. We scored 213 GF last year, and are on pace for 226 this year.

I actually think the players kept up their end of the bargain - at this point, most of the team is headed into its third year with Tocchet at the helm. They know the expectations for training, conditioning, etc. Tocchet's response that the team is getting tired is more a coach that doesn't know what to say because he is out of ideas of how to get things going. Chayka addressed some aspects of our team that were hurting. Technically, he improved our offense, and that includes the trade for Hall. I don't see how too much of the blame should be placed on Chayka, as he has done most of the right things. The only area that he has failed at is the grit/toughness (which I still think he tried to do, but maybe that didn't work out quite as intended) and putting his faith in Tocchet.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

That's hyperbolic and silly.

yeahhhhh....perhaps, but....

He could have got a 1st this year plus a nice asset in addition to that. There is zero doubt about that.

...that wasn't the point, even if you do it's still "we're giving up, and we got some of what we gave away back, maybe" ... but for 6 weeks, while you are a little happier, the team and the fan base is "we don't really care all *that* much about the picks and the prospects we lost, all we see is this new (to us) exciting player gone, never to return after only a monthish, and the franchise quitting in February to salvage some of the stuff we 'lost' that we didn't care about". Followed by fans' "I'm not spending one more dime on this team, bla bla bla"
(at least now, they get to wait until well into March to start saying it, right?!)

I mean, I know you don't like it, and i get why not, but the optics of trading Hall at the TDL would have been .....bad.

 

[CoyoteDave]

Another reason to have fired Tocchet 3 weeks ago.

 

[rt]

yeahhhhh....perhaps, but....



...that wasn't the point, even if you do it's still "we're giving up, and we got some of what we gave away back, maybe" ... but for 6 weeks, while you are a little happier, the team and the fan base is "we don't really care all *that* much about the picks and the prospects we lost, all we see is this new (to us) exciting player gone, never to return after only a monthish, and the franchise quitting in February to salvage some of the stuff we 'lost' that we didn't care about". Followed by fans' "I'm not spending one more dime on this team, bla bla bla"
(at least now, they get to wait until well into March to start saying it, right?!)

I mean, I know you don't like it, and i get why not, but the optics of trading Hall at the TDL would have been .....bad.

One mistake led to the other. After acquiring Hall, the entire team took a massive shit. When all of your players shut-down and stop playing, you fire the coach. Our failure to fire Tocchet and replace him with an upgrade put us in the position where we had no choice but to sell at the TDL. Chayka opted to do nothing about his coach, which left him in a position to sell at the TDL, and he opted to do nothing at the deadline. Both blunders are 100% Chayka's fault. It's not Tocchet's fault that Chayka failed to fire him in time to save the season. It's not Hall's fault that Chayka failed to trade him once all hope was lost. This mess is Chayka's. He did this.

 

[YotesFan47]

One mistake led to the other. After acquiring Hall, the entire team took a massive shit. When all of your players shut-down and stop playing, you fire the coach. Our failure to fire Tocchet and replace him with an upgrade put us in the position where we had no choice but to sell at the TDL. Chayka opted to do nothing about his coach, which left him in a position to sell at the TDL, and he opted to do nothing at the deadline. Both blunders are 100% Chayka's fault. It's not Tocchet's fault that Chayka failed to fire him in time to save the season. It's not Hall's fault that Chayka failed to trade him once all hope was lost. This mess is Chayka's. He did this.

I get both views on this, I fall more in line with you but it's also a matter of opinion. What shouldn't be an opinion is keeping RT past season end, playoffs or not. Barely squeezing in should still be considered a complete failure as we spent the last 2 months with Hall on our roster which was supposed to be an upgrade to make us a contender.

We have 2 goalies that can carry us, an at least adequate defense, and the best forward group we've seen in a decade. This team should be a playoff team and the coach has failed. If when the season end Chayka does not fire RT, then he should be fired too.

 

[Fuhrious]

Let's say you go to your supervisor and tell them "you should hire my friend for my team, he's doing great work for rival company X, would be a key performer for the group, and I know I can get a tune out of him here". The company hires your friend, who proceeds to underperform by every possible metric with the company finally performing well below expectations as you warp the team's structure and effort around trying to get your friend back on track.

You and your friend would both be fired. Full stop.

 

[Vinny Boombatz]

Just think about this as well. Minny is going to make the playoffs, they got rid of Zucker and picked up a 1st. So they're going to make the playoffs and get an extra #1 pick in the process...that's how you're supposed to do it. Good for them!

Then there is the Coyote Way! The complete Opposite. Give up a 1st to make the playoffs and then miss out - complete FAIL! Fire Tocchet!