Fire Tocchet

[Fuhrious]

My biggest gripe this season is the continued shift towards a culture of not working hard, playing a full 60 minutes, failing to show up for big games and/or playing down to competition. With Gallant and Laviolette available, really no better time to get a coach in who can light a fire under the players and shift the culture away from this turtling, shiftless dross we've been forced to watch all season.

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[87turbobuick]

Are you sure they would want this mediocre skill team? Dallas, Calgary and maybe Tampa if they choke again might be available.

 

[MIGs Dog]

Are you sure they would want this mediocre skill team? Dallas, Calgary and maybe Tampa if they choke again might be available.

Soft is what I was thinking. Those guys usually coach teams with more attitude.

 

[Fuhrious]

It kills me because I loved Tocchet as a player, but the culture of this team..."soft"... is the exact opposite of how he played the game.

 

[MIGs Dog]

It kills me because I loved Tocchet as a player, but the culture of this team..."soft"... is the exact opposite of how he played the game.

It's the players the GM has acquired.

 

[tucknroll]

Been saying this since Tocchet's first 20 games with the Coyotes. Tocchet has shown for little ability to make mid game adjustments besides mixing up his lines. He been running brutal systems since day 1 and he's had "underperforming" (not put in positions to excel) stars every year. I've said this every time I make a post about Tocchet, GOOD coaches change there styles and systems to accomodate they players they have and let them play to their strengths. Not force players to play a style they won't excel at and will expose their weaknesses.
Gallant and Keefe are the two coaches I've personally respected the most for the last 4 years, we missed out on Keefe when we had a chance, I really hope they don't miss out on Gallant now that he's become available.

 

[MIGs Dog]

Been saying this since Tocchet's first 20 games with the Coyotes. Tocchet has shown for little ability to make mid game adjustments besides mixing up his lines. He been running brutal systems since day 1 and he's had "underperforming" (not put in positions to excel) stars every year. I've said this every time I make a post about Tocchet, GOOD coaches change there styles and systems to accomodate they players they have and let them play to their strengths. Not force players to play a style they won't excel at and will expose their weaknesses.
Gallant and Keefe are the two coaches I've personally respected the most for the last 4 years, we missed out on Keefe when we had a chance, I really hope they don't miss out on Gallant now that he's become available.

We most definitely will miss out. I don't sense a coaching change is coming, but neither did Vegas I suppose.

 

[tucknroll]

We most definitely will miss out. I don't sense a coaching change is coming, but neither did Vegas I suppose.

I personally believe the last owner wanted Tocchet as the coach. I just can't see Chayka choosing Tocchet. It doesn't make sense (to me at least) with the options he had available and his background.
So here's me personally hoping that with a new owner and some spending money they will choose to move on.

 

[Jakey53]

Been saying this since Tocchet's first 20 games with the Coyotes. Tocchet has shown for little ability to make mid game adjustments besides mixing up his lines. He been running brutal systems since day 1 and he's had "underperforming" (not put in positions to excel) stars every year. I've said this every time I make a post about Tocchet, GOOD coaches change there styles and systems to accomodate they players they have and let them play to their strengths. Not force players to play a style they won't excel at and will expose their weaknesses.
Gallant and Keefe are the two coaches I've personally respected the most for the last 4 years, we missed out on Keefe when we had a chance, I really hope they don't miss out on Gallant now that he's become available.

How do you know we missed out n Keefe? Coaches would want to come here, and then there is salary. Salary was probably one of the big deciding factors when we hired RT. Success breeds success, which none of our coaches have at the NHL level, or our GM as far as that goes. This team has done about as good as anyone thought at the start of the year, so let's see what happens at year's end. If we don't make the playoffs, RT should be fired, maybe Chayka. I think most would agree that from the outside looking in Chayka has done a good job, but the proof will be in the pudding. Playoffs or fired. The culture must change here.

 

[rt]

Chayka stood with him during that 20 game winless streak or whatever it was and he’ll stick with him now.

Apart from a few players who always bring a consistent effort (namely Hall, Garland, and Chychrun) there are far too many who are inconsistent from an urgency perspective and yet others who seem complacent far more often than not.

I don’t know what the truth is. But from a fan’s perspective much of the team, especially the leadership group and the core (OEL, Kessel, Goligoski, Stepan, Keller, and Schmaltz) APPEAR to be complacent, lackadaisical, and nonchalant regardless of situation. Big game, small game, heated game, structures game, losing streak, winning streak, protecting lead, chasing game, whatever, etc.

So what’s the problem? Did the GM bring in and lock up a leadership group/core that is too passive and indifferent? Or is the coach failing to get what we need out of these guys? I don’t think any of us fans can know the answer.

 

[hbk]

Keefe was Dubas’s guy. He was always being groomed to take on the roll. Dubas and he have been tied at the hip since before SSM. he was never leaving that situation.

Tocchet is a players coach which given the purging of more hard ass coaches that we’ve seen in the last few months he’s actually what’s in vogue.

the issue w Tocchet IMO is his inability to modify his system to match the players he has. It depends on roster makeover.

I think the team has looked like ass for the last month. Part of it is goaltending (Raanta looks like he’s never played goal before and Hill looks scared). Part of it is the schedule (we look tired and tired players make mental mistakes). Part of it is just mental (we were geared up for a tough November schedule but we let our intensity down when the “easier” schedule kicked in).

we need the break. We need Keumper (only goalie I have any faith in outside of Prosvetov who I don’t want them to throw to the wolves in the NHL in his rookie season).

we also need to win this by our efforts. I don’t want us to back into this by relying on other teams not performing. We have to earn our way.

And yes Schmaltz and Keller could wake the f*** up anytime.

 

[Lawson of Anarchy]

I don't agree with the fire Tocc conversation. I don't think he has lost the room. I didn't agree with Gallant firing either. But if firing Tocc will get Keller and Kessel to produce to their expectations, then I'm all over it...

I think Gallant's style is similar to Tipp when he was here - a rigid 200 ft responsible system.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

So what’s the problem? Did the GM bring in and lock up a leadership group/core that is too passive and indifferent? Or is the coach failing to get what we need out of these guys? I don’t think any of us fans can know the answer.

Look, to me this malaise is in the room. It predates both Tocchet AND Chayka. The times when we've fought it off the best, we've had a great leadership core in the dressing room - during the 2011-2012 season, we had Shane Doan, Ray Whitney, and Adrian Aucoin leading the group - all three of them true captain material (Whit and Aucoin were both captains on other teams) and all veterans who played the game with determination and grit. When the team started going south, a lot of it had to do with Doan struggling to care as his role kept diminishing and the guys who were the assistant captains not being able to pick up the slack.

What I guess I'm saying is that there's only so much a coach or coaching staff can do. You can blame them for bad systems on the ice and poor decisions on choosing lines and so forth, but in the end it's up to the players to act like the elite professionals they are. Nik Hjalmarsson is a pro's pro, and I don't question his leadership abilities at all. But I do question OEL's, and Derek Stepan is more of the laid back surfer dude type than a dynamic room galvanizer.

I guess I'm spoiled by Doaner. He had the rarest of personalities in his prime - a kind, giving, and considerate one off the ice, a guy who players could rely on for just about anything, and on the ice he had the fire and edge to lift the entire team onto his shoulders and remove all their excuses. I don't know where we get a leader like that, but we sure as hell don't have it in OEL.

 

[Jamieh]

Keefe was Dubas’s guy. He was always being groomed to take on the roll. Dubas and he have been tied at the hip since before SSM. he was never leaving that situation.

Tocchet is a players coach which given the purging of more hard ass coaches that we’ve seen in the last few months he’s actually what in vogue.

the issue w Tocchet IMO is his inability to modify his system to match the players he has. It depends on roster makeover.

I think the team has looked like ass for the last month. Part of it is goaltending (Raanta looks like he’s never played goal before and Hill looks scared). Part of it is the schedule (we look tired and tired players make mental mistakes). Part of it is we just mental (we were geared up for a tough November schedule but we let our intensity down when the “easier” schedule kicked in).

we need the break. We need Keumper (only goalie I have any faith in outside of Prosvetov who I don’t want them to throw to the wolves in the NHL in his rookie season).

we also need to win this by our efforts. I don’t want us to back into this by relying on other teams not performing. We have to earn our way.

And yes Schmaltz and Keller could wake the **** up anytime.

I dont think they have looked good since early Nov, we just happened to get away with it for awhile.

 

[Jamieh]

I don't agree with the fire Tocc conversation. I don't think he has lost the room. I didn't agree with Gallant firing either. But if firing Tocc will get Keller and Kessel to produce to their expectations, then I'm all over it...

I think Gallant's style is similar to Tipp when he was here - a rigid 200 ft responsible system.

What are your expectations for Kessel and Keller?

 

[hbk]

I dont think they have looked good since early Nov, we just happened to get away with it for awhile.

Yeah Keumper and our defensive system got us through Nov. now that Hjarlmarsson is back I suspect our D will stabilize. We are likely going to deal for a physical bottom pairing D.

apparently MINNESOTA has Dumba on the market (source is the Hot Stove show on Sirius xM NhL channel). I don’t think we have the assets or cap space but damn would he be great.

 

[Jamieh]

Yeah Keumper and our defensive system got us through Nov. now that Hjarlmarsson is back I suspect our D will stabilize. We are likely going to deal for a physical bottom pairing D.

apparently MINNESOTA has Dumba on the market (source is the Hot Stove show on Sirius xM NhL channel). I don’t think we have the assets or cap space but damn would he be great.

I saw that on Dumba, not sure how that makes sense but it would be nice to put an offer in. It's kinda like some guys thought we could just continue winning with minimal effort, that just doesn't work long term in the nhl.

 

[MIGs Dog]

Or is the coach failing to get what we need out of these guys?

Coaches and team leadership fault. Do you think OEL or any of the vets go "Patrick Mahomes" on the team in the locker room?

 

[Jakey53]

Keefe was Dubas’s guy. He was always being groomed to take on the roll. Dubas and he have been tied at the hip since before SSM. he was never leaving that situation.

Tocchet is a players coach which given the purging of more hard ass coaches that we’ve seen in the last few months he’s actually what’s in vogue.

the issue w Tocchet IMO is his inability to modify his system to match the players he has. It depends on roster makeover.

I think the team has looked like ass for the last month. Part of it is goaltending (Raanta looks like he’s never played goal before and Hill looks scared). Part of it is the schedule (we look tired and tired players make mental mistakes). Part of it is just mental (we were geared up for a tough November schedule but we let our intensity down when the “easier” schedule kicked in).

we need the break. We need Keumper (only goalie I have any faith in outside of Prosvetov who I don’t want them to throw to the wolves in the NHL in his rookie season).

we also need to win this by our efforts. I don’t want us to back into this by relying on other teams not performing. We have to earn our way.

And yes Schmaltz and Keller could wake the **** up anytime.

You would have said that after the two months of the season if Kuemper and Raanta were not giving us outstanding, stand on your head goal tending. After injuries Raanta has not got his groove back which he will, and Kuemper hopefully gets his groove back. I have no idea why they played Raanta in Edmonton in the first place. Sign of panic from the coaches.

 

[Lawson of Anarchy]

What are your expectations for Kessel and Keller?

Keller went 14 and 33 for 47 last year. I would expect him to better that this year to 16 and 38 for 54. He is on pace for 53!
Kessel got 82 last year. I would expect him to get 60 this year and he is on pace for 50.

I don't think any change in coaching will get more out of Kessel and Keller - and they are not far off of expectations. I felt Keller showed a lot more grit this year and have been impressed with his game some nights.

 

[Imaravencawcaw]

Tocchet has only had a playoff caliber roster since the Hall trade. After the break there will be no more excuses. They'll be rested. They'll have Keumper. They'll have Hayton and Richardson and any player Tocchet could want in the line-up.

If he runs the team into the ground over the second half and misses the playoffs then you have the conversation, but not until then.

 

[Jamieh]

Keller went 14 and 33 for 47 last year. I would expect him to better that this year to 16 and 38 for 54. He is on pace for 53!
Kessel got 82 last year. I would expect him to get 60 this year and he is on pace for 50.

I don't think any change in coaching will get more out of Kessel and Keller - and they are not far off of expectations. I felt Keller showed a lot more grit this year and have been impressed with his game some nights.

That makes sense. I have never been high on Keller but have always liked Kessel.

 

[rt]

Okay. So we aren’t going to trade our whole leadership group in-season. Especially if we want to keep Hall. I might say the same goes for the coaching staff, but I’m less sure of that.

Say things go south and it’s clear we are losing Hall anyway. Fire all the coaches, and trade the likes of Kessel, Stepan, Goligoski, Raanta, and maybe even OEL. That’s sooo much turnover and change. Does that set us back yet another entire season?

Do we need to suffer another 82 game adjustment period for the latest re-tool? Or do we have the ingredients we need to fight our way out of this? Make changes within rather than without? And right this ship without first sinking it?

 

[Heldig]

Yeah, I cant see any big change this season. Chayka brought in Kessel and Hall. Those were the moves. I can see a few tweaks by the deadline - try to acquire a bit more size and grit - nut nothing major.

Given Chaykas track record I can see Keller on the block next summer.

 

[MIGs Dog]

Keller went 14 and 33 for 47 last year. I would expect him to better that this year to 16 and 38 for 54. He is on pace for 53!
Kessel got 82 last year. I would expect him to get 60 this year and he is on pace for 50.

I don't think any change in coaching will get more out of Kessel and Keller - and they are not far off of expectations. I felt Keller showed a lot more grit this year and have been impressed with his game some nights.

Why can't Keller return to rookie form?