Fire Tocchet

[cobra427]

Yup, everything points back to RT. Not making the playoffs you can also point a finger or two at Chayka. Missing the playoffs should and I think it will, sound an alarm with our owner. Chayka is not going anywhere for the next year, but RT should be fired, along with getting rid of a couple of over paid and under performing vets.

Coach always gets shot first and I think it is warranted in this case. The wrong mix of players is on Chayka but its hard to evaluate the mix if the coach isn't getting the most out of them. Every team wants to get rid of over paid under performing vets, nobody wants them unless it is sweetened, they have NMCs (Kessel/OEL), and their value is lower now.

On Chayka, would you sign the following players to the same deals?

OEL: looks pretty bad now for years to some unless he snaps out of it
Schmaltz/Keller: both over paid but still young players
Chychrun: looks good based on his performance but I suspect he is injury prone like Hanzal/Raanta
Garland: heck yes, but Chayka was lucky here

 

[XX]

I don't even think Chayka needs to fire Tocchet, necessarily. MacLean and Housley need to go, though. Tocchet's "player whisperer" demeanor might work better if he had offense and defense coaches who are strong tactically and strategically - guys who could create flexible, effective systems between games and who could adapt and inspire in-game. Maybe don't hire Tocchet's pals - a "team of rivals" might be a better idea.

They already let Allen go for no reason. Tocchet is not a golden goose that should be kept at all costs.

I don't think he whispers shit and his system is simplistic garbage that other coaches figure out pretty easily.

 

[Fuhrious]

To the point that was made back in the Sabres GDT touting RT for "making adjustments"...it's not exactly hard for a HC to see "so-and-so is really feeling it, I need to get him on the field/ice as much as possible and feed him the ball/puck". Actual coaching nous is being able to see "this combination of players/formation/strategy isnt working" and make adjustments to get things unstuck. To my recollection, RT has never shown the ability to do that, let alone the willingness.

 

[YotesFan47]

By the loss of Bahl, Merkley and a mid round pick? I doubt it. I think acquiring Hall was a good bet by Chayka. Tocchet/leadership failed to instill a sense of urgency to the group.

If we miss the playoffs and don't resign Hall then yes, that loss hurts. Keep in mind many top end players (something we are still short on) have come between picks 10-20. I didn't like the idea of trading a 1st for Hall when we were sitting 1st in the Pacific. Today we are on the outside looking in and that looks even worse. The gamble isn't even over yet, we still need to see if Hall resigns and if we do make a wildcard appearance because this could end up as 2 first round picks for Hall, plus Bahl, plus some other stuff that's less important.

To clarify, the value for Hall was fine, this franchise was not in a position where we should have made that move though.

 

[Vinny Boombatz]

To clarify, the value for Hall was fine, this franchise was not in a position where we should have made that move though.

This. Getting Hall is fine if we're going for the cup, but we're not there yet, the only way it works is if he resigns, that's it, otherwise it is a loss, period!

 

[rt]

I support the Hall acquisition. But he should have been re-traded because this team is not making the playoffs.

 

[Prarievarg]

To clarify, the value for Hall was fine, this franchise was not in a position where we should have made that move though.

Even if we're not cup contenders I believe there's value in strengthen the group for a possible playoff run. Especially for a franchise that has been on the outside looking in for the last 7 seasons. A lot of the players our future is depending on has never played a game at the NHL level that really matters. Expectations and big games should help them grow. Then again, coaches and leadership failed on their part to pass on the heightened expectations on.

 

[Prarievarg]

Keep in mind many top end players (something we are still short on) have come between picks 10-20.

I think we have a bigger chance at getting a top end player by trading for Hall than picking 10-20, though. Still don't think it's out of the question he re signs (I know I'm in the minority here though).

Sorry for quoting you again

 

[XX]

This. Getting Hall is fine if we're going for the cup, but we're not there yet, the only way it works is if he resigns, that's it, otherwise it is a loss, period!

It revealed how terrible the coaching and the leadership group are. It's not all bad. It's only truly pointless if Chayka doesn't learn anything from it.

I fully expect Hall to walk for a frontloaded contract with a better team, as he should.

This team with Kessel and Hall isn't outscoring last year's team post Jan 1st. Says it all, really.

 

[YotesFan47]

I think we have a bigger chance at getting a top end player by trading for Hall than picking 10-20, though. Still don't think it's out of the question he re signs (I know I'm in the minority here though).

Sorry for quoting you again

Quote me as much as you want

You're right that we have a higher chance of getting a top end player out of Hall than a pick in the 10-20 range, much less a better player. Top end in my book means top 6/4/starter so its not some elite talent. Barzal would be a great type of grab, but hes on the upper end of a pick like that. Chychrun falls in that same mold. Hall's career is better than both of theirs to date even if he does have 6+ seasons on them. This really does play into my philosophy on drafting though and why at our current stage I hate giving up picks for a soon to be FA.

In 2015 we had the choice between Strome, Hanafin and Marner, I'd have traded back (ideally with Philly) to instead try and get Werenski/Provorov and Carlo. In 2018 I wanted to move back with NYI and grab the same 2 players they did instead of Hayton (do love this pick though and was not displeased unlike the Domi and Soderstrom selections). Outside of a 1st/2nd overall, I trade those back to get 2 mid round 1sts because there are outstanding players in that mix. If all we have is 1 pick in the middle rounds, I don't want to see it traded.

I also don't think we will get the same longevity out of Hall that we would get if we did pick up a top player in the 10-20 range, even if they don't bring the same impact. I want us to take the slow and steady approach where we can spend a minimum of a decade as a contender. If we are in the mix for 10 years, imagine the stability that will create. I don't want us to repeat the process because we got 3 good years and then miss for 8. That's a trend so far with this organization, if it takes us an additional 2-3 year of drafting and missing the playoffs to finally be stable, I'm ok with that.

 

[TheLegend]

To the point that was made back in the Sabres GDT touting RT for "making adjustments"...it's not exactly hard for a HC to see "so-and-so is really feeling it, I need to get him on the field/ice as much as possible and feed him the ball/puck". Actual coaching nous is being able to see "this combination of players/formation/strategy isnt working" and make adjustments to get things unstuck. To my recollection, RT has never shown the ability to do that, let alone the willingness.

He's made line adjustments throughout the season. Maybe not the kind you want to see or even not enough of them but they've been made.

Where I would agree with the lack of adjustments is not with personnel..... but with how they position themselves and move the puck forward out of their own end and through the neutral zone. Too many times we see an increasing number of passes and clearing attempts getting picked off as the game progresses. We aren't adapting... or not quick enough. Many games I've watched some of our passes were so predictable even I could see it coming even though I wasn't looking for it..

 

[RemoAZ]

This team with Kessel and Hall isn't outscoring last year's team post Jan 1st. Says it all, really.

Scmaltz is back too so add him to the mix. It would be hard to underperform more offensively than they are.

 

[rt]

Scmaltz is back too so add him to the mix. It would be hard to underperform more offensively than they are.

Well if it starts clicking tonight and they get it into gear and fire on all cylinders for the rest of this season, I’ll forgive everything. . Streak into the playoffs, win a series, and re-sign Hall. I’ll happily pretend the awful two months of sucktitude never happened.

 

[Heldig]

Interesting discussions for sure.

I am good with the Hall trade. It was done for the right reasons. Rewardng the team, addressing a MAJOR weakness without giving too much away.+ inspiring the fanbase. It has not worked out in part due to Kuemper being injured.

Bigger issue has been the failure of Kessel to be a difference maker nor to elevate the game of those around him.

There is not an easy fix. I would start after the season by hiring Laviolette (or Beaudreau).

 

[Fuhrious]

He's made line adjustments throughout the season. Maybe not the kind you want to see or even not enough of them but they've been made.

Where I would agree with the lack of adjustments is not with personnel..... but with how they position themselves and move the puck forward out of their own end and through the neutral zone. Too many times we see an increasing number of passes and clearing attempts getting picked off as the game progresses. We aren't adapting... or not quick enough. Many games I've watched some of our passes were so predictable even I could see it coming even though I wasn't looking for it..

I specifically referred to line adjustments within games, not between them. Something that hes been criticized for many times throughout this season and parts of last. As @XX mentioned in the GDT, it's incredibly suspect coaching to lock yourself into lines where your highest scorer is shackled to player(s) you can't or won't trust with important minutes. As @Surfshop has mentioned in this thread multiple times, his unwillingness to double shift players like Hall to maximize his utilization in key situations. These are very clear and observable shortcomings.

 

[Jakey53]

Coach always gets shot first and I think it is warranted in this case. The wrong mix of players is on Chayka but its hard to evaluate the mix if the coach isn't getting the most out of them. Every team wants to get rid of over paid under performing vets, nobody wants them unless it is sweetened, they have NMCs (Kessel/OEL), and their value is lower now.

On Chayka, would you sign the following players to the same deals?

OEL: looks pretty bad now for years to some unless he snaps out of it
Schmaltz/Keller: both over paid but still young players
Chychrun: looks good based on his performance but I suspect he is injury prone like Hanzal/Raanta
Garland: heck yes, but Chayka was lucky here

OEL' contract looks a bit rough right now, but every team has one or two of those, it happens. I'm fine with all the kids contracts. Kessel and your fav Stepan, are the contracts that will hurt this club next year. One has to go.

 

[Jakey53]

Even if we're not cup contenders I believe there's value in strengthen the group for a possible playoff run. Especially for a franchise that has been on the outside looking in for the last 7 seasons. A lot of the players our future is depending on has never played a game at the NHL level that really matters. Expectations and big games should help them grow. Then again, coaches and leadership failed on their part to pass on the heightened expectations on.

There is no harm in strengthening your team if that player is not a rental. The only time you trade for a rental like Hall is if your team is a SC contender, not a playoff contender. We can't afford to lose assets at this stage. Let's find a way to make the playoffs, then make this kind of trade if we think that player gives us a good shot at the SC. Chayka though, might think this team is a SC contender, who knows.

 

[BUX7PHX]

There is no harm in strengthening your team if that player is not a rental. The only time you trade for a rental like Hall is if your team is a SC contender, not a playoff contender. We can't afford to lose assets at this stage. Let's find a way to make the playoffs, then make this kind of trade if we think that player gives us a good shot at the SC. Chayka though, might think this team is a SC contender, who knows.

Considering how few times we have had a top 3 pick in a draft and nailed it, when a player of Hall's experience becomes available, you still go after it.

In terms of rentals, remember only one team wins the Cup, so we are one of many teams that is doing things wrong, according to your statement. If only teams who have the capability of winning the Cup are supposed to go after rentals, then Vancouver, Calgary, and many other teams are making deals when they are not contenders... Hell, Minnesota and the Rangers are pushing for the playoffs, and they traded the better players away to do so.

Maybe the entire purpose was to add to an already good team, but that already good team has average coaching, so no matter what the add is, the coaching holds it back...

 

[JTPoni23]

I specifically referred to line adjustments within games, not between them. Something that hes been criticized for many times throughout this season and parts of last. As @XX mentioned in the GDT, it's incredibly suspect coaching to lock yourself into lines where your highest scorer is shackled to player(s) you can't or won't trust with important minutes. As @Surfshop has mentioned in this thread multiple times, his unwillingness to double shift players like Hall to maximize his utilization in key situations. These are very clear and observable shortcomings.

I am constantly reminded of the OT loss against LA where Toc sent out Kessel, Goligoski and Stepan to start OT while Hall was glued to the bench. Ridiculous.

 

[Jakey53]

Considering how few times we have had a top 3 pick in a draft and nailed it, when a player of Hall's experience becomes available, you still go after it.

In terms of rentals, remember only one team wins the Cup, so we are one of many teams that is doing things wrong, according to your statement. If only teams who have the capability of winning the Cup are supposed to go after rentals, then Vancouver, Calgary, and many other teams are making deals when they are not contenders... Hell, Minnesota and the Rangers are pushing for the playoffs, and they traded the better players away to do so.

Maybe the entire purpose was to add to an already good team, but that already good team has average coaching, so no matter what the add is, the coaching holds it back...

I am constantly reminded of the OT loss against LA where Toc sent out Kessel, Goligoski and Stepan to start OT while Hall was glued to the bench. Ridiculous.

I think coaching is the main reason we are in this situation. The only problem is, I think RT will be the coach next year.

 

[MIGs Dog]

I remember Dave Tippett was fond of saying that he didn't determine ice time...the players did. Whether you bought into that line or not, the theory makes sense. You don't need to be an advanced stats wiz to see that if Phil Kessel was not named Phil Kessel he would have been benched long ago. This is RTs biggest weakness IMO, failure to maximize the talent available.

The numbers are worse if you look at Kessel's own production 5on5. Grabner, playing only 45 games and limited minutes, has more goals than Phil.

 

[BUX7PHX]

How to combat the NHL's groupthink problem on head-coach hirings

Just something to think about - I wonder if that is part of how Tocchet got here, or if something else was in the cards. Tocchet seems like the exact type of coach that would be hired in this scenario - friendly to all and knows a lot of players, so it seems to be thought that he would relate to them. Which he probably can do, but not in a way that is acceptable between coaches and players. Ultimately, it kind of why you don't want to be best friends with your boss. It may seem nice, but the expectation level is just different when it is not in a "working" relationship, which I could easily see Tocchet being too willing to do.

Also, I would like Meruelo to see this - we already did something a little outside the box with the Chayka hire (which I am still not believing is the wrong hire), and look in a few other places for a coach, including overseas. Whomever this Swedish guy that was mentioned in the article is - it sounds like he gets things done, so what is the worst that could happen? Fans are more disappointed? We've been through bad seasons, so that won't phase us. It's the seasons like this where the team makeup as it is pinnacle, but the team fails to live up to the potential.

 

[cobra427]

How to combat the NHL's groupthink problem on head-coach hirings

Just something to think about - I wonder if that is part of how Tocchet got here, or if something else was in the cards. Tocchet seems like the exact type of coach that would be hired in this scenario - friendly to all and knows a lot of players, so it seems to be thought that he would relate to them. Which he probably can do, but not in a way that is acceptable between coaches and players. Ultimately, it kind of why you don't want to be best friends with your boss. It may seem nice, but the expectation level is just different when it is not in a "working" relationship, which I could easily see Tocchet being too willing to do.

Also, I would like Meruelo to see this - we already did something a little outside the box with the Chayka hire (which I am still not believing is the wrong hire), and look in a few other places for a coach, including overseas. Whomever this Swedish guy that was mentioned in the article is - it sounds like he gets things done, so what is the worst that could happen? Fans are more disappointed? We've been through bad seasons, so that won't phase us. It's the seasons like this where the team makeup as it is pinnacle, but the team fails to live up to the potential.

This is our most under achieving season since the TGO days.

 

[Vinny Boombatz]

This is our most under achieving season since the TGO days.

agreed, let this sink in for everyone. We're spending to the Cap, #1 but yet where are we in the standings? FIRE TOCCHET!!

 

[rt]

This is our most under achieving season since the TGO days.

No, those teams didn't even really underachieve. They were bad. This is a decent roster that's playing poorly. I'm not sure we've ever had that.