TheLegend
Megathread Gadfly
Nope.... just saying people are frustrated and grabbing at anything as a reason to vent. I said I get it.... but the number of reasons being given are all over the spectrum.
Fire Tocchet
- Thread starter Fuhrious
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Nope.... just saying people are frustrated and grabbing at anything as a reason to vent. I said I get it.... but the number of reasons being given are all over the spectrum.
Fuhrious
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I mean, they arent though. They're continuing to bemoan a managerial shortcoming that has been commented on a dozen or more times in this 30-page thread, as well as who knows how many times in GDT's stretching across this season and parts of last. Some of us supporters are sincerely aggrieved that this team is flushing it's best chance at a playoff berth in 7 or 8 seasons down the bowl due to piss poor effort and shambolic management. Whether you agree with us or not, I fail to see how constantly gaslighting helps anything.
TheLegend
Megathread Gadfly
Our defense was struggling before we picked up Hall. Then Hammer returned and the expectations were “everything is fine now.”
Takes more than just talent... (see Edmonton).
2011-12 was an extremely experienced team compared to the current one. And they had the “us vs the world” mentality.
Vegas their first year was not a collection of real top end talent either. Aside from MAF anyway. But they play with the same mentality.
Edmonton has enough firepower up front to overcome what they give up. Look beyond just the past 5-6 games with McDavid. They were giving up 3-4 goals a game. Having McDavid out of the lineup has forced some of the other players to step up because they can’t sit back and rely on Connor McJesus to carry their asses anymore.
I’m beginning to believe that the acquisition of Hall has induced some complacency among a few of our players. They're looking for Hall to carry the freight. Just like they might have been doing with Kessel earlier in the year.
That isn’t just a coaching issue.
TheLegend
Megathread Gadfly
I see a handful of people constantly putting it on Tocchet. Others put it on Chayka. Some even put it on both. Throw a smattering of Kessel and Goligoski into the mix with a sprinkling of Stepan..... Fischer (early on) Hinostroza (more recently) Oesterle (off and on)..... of course....everyone’s favorite Ness, and there ya go.
Fuhrious
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There I go? All I see is you conflating discussions from multiple threads about a variety of aspects of the team and it's players' performances this season as an example of...what exactly? "A handful of people" being "insufferable whiners"? Seems like more gaslighting.
This is the "Tocchet Out" thread, and you're annoyed that recent posts are from fans bemoaning what they perceived as poor management in the last match?
rt
The Kinder, Gentler Version
I find it very annoying when people try to minimize this skid as "a few" bad games. Or act like this is a recent problem.
The Coyotes have earned the 4th fewest points per game in the NHL since December 23rd, 2019. Only Detroit, LA, and Ottawa have been worse since that time. Of the 26 games the Coyotes have played since 12/23, they have won 9. They have 9 wins in their last 26 games played. This is NOT a small sample.
If you feel like you need a bigger sample-size, I can accommodate. Since Tocchet took over the team, the Coyotes have played 228 games. They've won 98 and lost 130 of them. Only four teams in the NHL have earned fewer points per game in that time-frame. Detroit, Ottawa, Buffalo, and Los Angeles are the only teams that have been worse than the Coyotes since they hired Tocchet.
The Coyotes have earned the 4th fewest points per game in the NHL since December 23rd, 2019. Only Detroit, LA, and Ottawa have been worse since that time. Of the 26 games the Coyotes have played since 12/23, they have won 9. They have 9 wins in their last 26 games played. This is NOT a small sample.
If you feel like you need a bigger sample-size, I can accommodate. Since Tocchet took over the team, the Coyotes have played 228 games. They've won 98 and lost 130 of them. Only four teams in the NHL have earned fewer points per game in that time-frame. Detroit, Ottawa, Buffalo, and Los Angeles are the only teams that have been worse than the Coyotes since they hired Tocchet.
- team has been sliding for months
- team gets outshot 3:1
- coach makes no adjustments to spacing, breakouts, or the lines
- team gets blasted, as expected
PeOplE ARE fruSTRaTeD aND gRabbing At anytHing
truly breathtaking.
- team gets outshot 3:1
- coach makes no adjustments to spacing, breakouts, or the lines
- team gets blasted, as expected
PeOplE ARE fruSTRaTeD aND gRabbing At anytHing
truly breathtaking.
BUX7PHX
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The simple fact is that we had everything ready to go for us - we had a team in its 3rd year of the system, which had shown promise after a lackadaisical (at best) start to the 17-18 season, and beset by injuries to the 18-19 season. For once, we had zero excuses. In fact, we picked up Hall as a sign of how good the team was playing and to reward us heading toward the playoffs.
Teams are losing better quality players and have a worse team to ice, but are still picking up points. As I brought up before, the Oilers have been without McDavid since the game on 11FEB against Chicago. The Oilers 5/6 D have averaged about 20 minutes per night... COMBINED total. Yet, the Oilers picked up 7 out of 10 points. What is the equivalent to being without McDavid on our team? Being without Hall and Kuemper both? Look at the Oilers lineup against Boston the other night. Just read the names and then compare our lineup to that of the Oilers. We have just as potent of a team on the names as Edmonton does. Or Calgary. Or Vancouver. Just look at the lineups and rosters. On paper, we match up fine. On the ice, we don't have that same outcome.
In a way, the number of reasons given by us is the equivalent of the reasons that Tocchet has given. Seriously - too tired? From the coach who demanded coming into the season in better shape to start the 18-19 season, there shouldn't be "tiredness," if you are conditioned properly. I don't recall ever hearing disappointment in how the team approached training camp or the early part of the season, from a conditioning standpoint, so that shouldn't be an excuse. If you are tired after 63 games of the season, and the coach notices the slow down, then you have to be able to rotate some players in a little differently, or play a very different game against some teams so that you can stay rested for the games you need to get points out of. Way too many mistakes on ice that we aren't prepared for.
This is not the expectation for this year, especially after not giving up a single NHL roster player to obtain Hall. If we had traded out some glue guys to get Hall, I could see that being the reason for our struggles. But, this is atrocious by Tocchet. If Tippett were here, we'd probably be sitting at 72-75 points right now.
Here are the games where we have had at least a 2 goal lead in, only to lose:
Nov 9th MIN, L 4-3 in regulation (up 2-0 and up 3-1)
Nov 30th SJ, L 4-2 in regulation (up 2-0)
Dec 29th DAL, L 4-2 in regulation (up 2-0)
Feb 6th, CAR, L 5-3 in regulation (up 2-0)
Even getting a loser point in 2 of these games puts us ahead of the Jets.
The team is 2-18 when trailing after 2. 19-1-4 when leading after 2 periods. We are not built to come back, and looking at the OT loss column when leading, we can't hold a lead either. We have 7 wins (good for 29th) when we trail first. Unacceptable from coaching to not have us prepared...
TheLegend
Megathread Gadfly
Who says I’m annoyed? I made an observation. You seem more annoyed that someone dared to post something that contradicts you.
BTW.... It’s an open message board. And I have been critical of the coaching staff (and that includesTocchet) on being slow to make adjustments since day one. I just don’t see it as enough reason to replace anyone.... yet.
TheLegend
Megathread Gadfly
rt
The Kinder, Gentler Version
For those of you about to tell me that he can't be blamed for the team's early struggles, that these were the result of ownership and management turmoil, let me help you...
In Tocchet's first two seasons as head coach, the team played 164 games and had 68 wins and 86 losses. Only 5 teams in the league earned fewer points per game.
So this season is worlds better, right? We really turned things around since that time? Well, no. Unfortunately not. Only 9 teams have earned fewer points since.
So in years 1-2, we were a bottom 5 team in the league. In this resurgent year, where we finally turned a corner, we're a bottom 10 team in the league.
Whoop-dee-f***ing-doo.
Fire the coaches.
Obviously.
rt
The Kinder, Gentler Version
I'm sorry. I can only surmise that you really haven't been paying attention, then. I don't want to be rude, but NHL teams simply don't give out this much rope any longer. Not even to extremely qualified coaches with fantastic resumes. Is Rick Tocchet an extremely qualified NHL head coach with a fantastic resume? Why does he deserve so long of a leash?
BUX7PHX
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1. Our defense before we picked up Hall was averaging 2.4 GA per game. Yes, we can expect small differences, but to go from 2.4 to nearly 3.2 is unacceptable, as is.
2. Yes, it does take more than talent - it also takes good coaching. This team had experience of falling short last year, which should be a stepping stone. We picked up Soderberg and Kessel - two players with playoff experience (read the articles where players gravitate toward Kessel because of his experience and knowledge he can impart on the young players). Then we pick up Hall.
You are making my argument for me. If the talent is there, but not showing up, then the coaches may not be using that talent best.
3. As usual, you probably did not even look at the roster that was iced by Edmonton against the Bruins. Edmonton lost in OT 2-1. Here are the forwards:
Draisaitl
RNH
Archibald
Benson
Cave
Chaisson
Gagner
Hass
Khaira
Russell
Sheahan
Yamamoto
Draisaitl and RNH are elite - after that, it really is more of a who's who of names, as opposed to anyone solid. Hell Archibald wasn't even good enough to be a top 12 on this roster. Now, compare to our roster:
Hall
Dvorak
Garland
Schmaltz
Kessel
Keller
Soderberg
Crouse
Stepan
Fischer
Richardson
Hayton
From the standpoint of elite players, Edmonton wins with Draisaitl. But looking at the overall 12 names, if you were to tell me that I could only choose one team of 12 forwards for the last 20 games of the year, I'd take the latter each and every day of the week. That's the issue. If the players are able to step up like this without McDavid, then why do we not have the same ability to step up like when Raanta went out last year, or Kuemper this year? That is called coaching preparedness. Both Edmonton and the Coyotes have relatively similar goal differentials on the year +6 vs + 3. Edmonton has scored 17 more goals than us and allowed 14 more goals than us.
This is ALL about the lack of coaching...
And yes, I do agree with you that complacency set in for some players upon acquiring Hall. A good coach wouldn't allow that...
Because Chayka’s “never been a follower.” I sure hope he knows what the hell he is doing this time around. I’m questioning his handling of this situation more than I have ever questioned him about anything in his tenure so far. Should be an interesting weekend...
His options are fire Tocchet and buy himself a few years with a new coach or go down with the ship next year if they miss.
If Dubas can fire Babcock, the most expensive coach in the league in the market with the most pressure, burger boy sure as hell can send Tocchet on his way.
Fuhrious
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Except you haven't actually contradicted me, or anyone really? You haven't offered any actual counterpoints to any of the observations, stats or metrics people have thrown out as "evidence" to back their complaints. Near as I can remember, at most you've done the last couple months is toss out so-unlikely-as-to-be-borderline-insulting-to-the-intelligence "devil's advocate" positions and post complaints about other people's posting. Even here, you're gaslighting me again with the "you seem more..." nonsense.
As you say, it's an open message board. What's the larger purpose behind going into threads you apparently disagree with and making "observations" seemingly intended to make people feel bad for expressing their opinions by labeling them whiners or complainers?
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rt
The Kinder, Gentler Version
I don't know if you can say that. Or go that far. A GOOD coach could still have this issue. But the RIGHT coach might not allow it. Or at least could recognize it and address it, rather than stuttering and repeating "I don't know" over and over again.
I don't really think Tocchet is a GOOD coach. But I don't even really need to argue about that. One thing is extremely clear; he's not the RIGHT coach. I won't argue if you say he's BAD but I don't think ANYONE can reasonably argue if you say he's WRONG.
TheLegend
Megathread Gadfly
The games you listed where we blew those leads were far more frustrating (for me anyway) than last night’s game. We get leads and then try to hold on. I really don’t think the coaching staff is telling them “alright boys.... we got ‘em now so let’s sit back and cruise a while.” It’s a mindset the players take on. Then when the game gets flipped on them and then we start forcing plays or try to be “too perfect”.
As far as our prep for last night went. The Dallas game the night before was very physical. So I expected the team be a little slow. They showed some spark some moments during the night but not as much as I thought they would.
For their part... the Blues had a day off In between and have an assistant who was our HC in Tucson last year. So if anyone had a book on us he certainly did. Did it contribute to why we kept getting hemmed in our own end? Hard to say. But the Blues seemed too often to be reading what we were doing and knew exactly where to go. Or were we telegraphing ourselves too much?? Again.... hard to say.
The latter part though is something that the coaching staff should take responsibility for.
BUX7PHX
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That's fair. But I will also bring up that the first thing which Tocchet referenced was how he told Hall, "we'll adjust to you." For me, the coach is saying that we will do everything to make you comfortable, which is kind of saying the same thing.
I interpret that as, "Let Taylor do what he needs to," which spreads this idea that when in doubt, if Taylor gets the puck, he'll get us out of a jam. After all, the current players are adjusting to him, which means they let him take the lead.
Just by doing that, you are accepting that this player will do more for you if you let him be the star. I doubt anyone in the room didn't know what Hall was capable of. But you can't just let someone jump in and tell the team that we will adjust around that player. It is already putting the concept into heads that Hall is Mr. Do-it-all (which he has been). Let him be Mr. Do-it-all, but make sure the players know that he is not the chosen one and everyone still has to do what they need to do as well.
Again, it sounds like Tocchet's message sounds good. But in actuality, that message is actually having an opposite effect.
DOTS13
Werewolf of London
Once Coyotes acquired Hall thinking that he will have to adjust to Coyotes system, or the whole team will adjust to him. Once Tocchet came out and said the latter, I remember being disappointed and thinking everything else that you mentioned.
There is no identity on or off the ice and it's showing in the worst way right now. I think we all just want to see some sort of adjustment and/or accountability. Whether it's system, player personnel, or staffing personnel... as rt said above "9 wins in their last 26 games played"... something just has to change.
Exactly. There were signs of problems early in the year, which some of us realized, but nothing was done to correct those problems. These problems go back to last year. Most of this is on Chayka and RT's shoulders, more so than the players.
BUX7PHX
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^^^^
I had the chance to coach a very good player at a young age in lacrosse. Elite level talent. We are talking 5th or 6th grade at the time, and this kid could run circles around everyone, etc.
Both myself and the other coach knew he was the best player on the team, hands-down. But we never treated him like that. When explaining plays, sometimes we had him run it. Sometimes, there were 4-8 other players that could run it, even though they weren't as talented. The reason why we did it this way is because if we try the same play with the same best player being the only guy who does anything, the benefit doesn't come to the other players. They will rely on this player to do everything, and when the time comes for them to do what needs to get done, those players are only going to rely on the best player, as opposed to working as a team.
I don't consider myself to be a great or even elite coach. But I know that you can't make one person into your darling in front of the team, because then it sends the wrong message.
EDIT: Btw, this was the same player that I would have discussions about moving up to a higher age group, etc. Only player I have ever had that discussion on, but ultimately, the coaches didn't see him dominate enough on the age group to make us feel that he needed to be moved up. It was close. It probably would not have hurt him at all, but we thought there was still more for him to learn. He turned out okay, since he was named the National Gatorade HS Player of the Year last season and went to Texas for football (Jake Smith)
I had the chance to coach a very good player at a young age in lacrosse. Elite level talent. We are talking 5th or 6th grade at the time, and this kid could run circles around everyone, etc.
Both myself and the other coach knew he was the best player on the team, hands-down. But we never treated him like that. When explaining plays, sometimes we had him run it. Sometimes, there were 4-8 other players that could run it, even though they weren't as talented. The reason why we did it this way is because if we try the same play with the same best player being the only guy who does anything, the benefit doesn't come to the other players. They will rely on this player to do everything, and when the time comes for them to do what needs to get done, those players are only going to rely on the best player, as opposed to working as a team.
I don't consider myself to be a great or even elite coach. But I know that you can't make one person into your darling in front of the team, because then it sends the wrong message.
EDIT: Btw, this was the same player that I would have discussions about moving up to a higher age group, etc. Only player I have ever had that discussion on, but ultimately, the coaches didn't see him dominate enough on the age group to make us feel that he needed to be moved up. It was close. It probably would not have hurt him at all, but we thought there was still more for him to learn. He turned out okay, since he was named the National Gatorade HS Player of the Year last season and went to Texas for football (Jake Smith)
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BUX7PHX
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Oh, I agree. To be honest, losing 1-0 to the Blues is not what I am upset at.
I am upset with the idea that this is the time when we need to turn it on and be at our best and most focused. With how tight everything is in the playoff race, I honestly thought that we needed to ratchet things up around mid-January. If we could have pulled off another 1-6 points immediately before and after the ASG break, that could mean the difference.
Instead, we look like we are not firing on all cylinders. Even at the early part of the year, I still didnt see us playing our best hockey. I figured that we were working our way into that. Turns out, we burnt ourselves out early, and didn't have a gameplan for how to alleviate that. Those games are just indicative of the season - start fast, and just kind of coast into the end. Well, while we are coasting, other teams are improving. And that's why we are where we are now. We've gone from being the team that scores first to the team that hopes to stay in it. And that's where we will stay until we get a coach who pushes the player's buttons.
Honestly, I think that each one of us with a subscription to the Athletic should bring one of these talking points each in a question during the Q&A sessions that happen with Craig. That way he is aware of how disgusted we are and I want to see him give reasons why we should not fire Tocchet.
Stepan and Kessel are the darlings of RT. Both third line players this year, but getting treated as first line players.
BUX7PHX
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Stepan is not as bad as you think. Kessel kind of has been.
But to that point, if not changing the way we do things to get these guys going, then is our coach really helping out?
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