Fire Chia Thread III: Security Blanket Gone, Nowhere to Run Nowhere to Hide

[belair]

I think your missing a key point of those figures. Its meant to show how bad the supporting cast around Hall/McDavid are. People like to hang the losses on the best players, while losing sight of the fact that for ~66% of the game, that player is not on the ice and has no impact on the game. It doesnt matter if a player is scoring 80 points or 100 points, if the supporting cast is dog ****, the team will never succeed.

If you read my initial response instead of using it as a springboard to go on an incessant negative rant, no I didn't miss that point. It's not a surprise this version of the Oilers is a drag after the first line just like that version was. We never produced the support a successful team requires--for numerous reasons.

The Hall mention is a response to that tweet.

 

[Little Fury]

Because hockey is a 5v5 sport. If you're not on a top line, odds are your linemates aren't as good as the ones you'd have if you were on a top line.

Except that wouldn't have been the case if Hall had stayed. He'd get Draisaitl or Mcdavid or his usual centre Nugent-Hopkins.

Additionally, top lines are generally given the green light to take risks to create offense, which sometimes results in GA. Second lines are generally more reserved as its quite likely the competition they face likely has the same ability to put the puck in your net.

I dunno if there's anything to this at all. The extent to which a second line generates offense is more a byproduct of personnel than tactics. Generally speaking, they score less because they lack talent compared to top lines, not because they can't " go for it."

I think Hall's net point production would've stayed in that 50-60 point pocket he was comfortably producing here on average. I think that second line would've given up more goals than Hall was used to though. And considering the type of personality he is, I don't think that would've sat well with him.

The grass isn't greener over there.

You keep saying this, but there's no reason to think that would have been the case given he'd be seeing, on average, lesser competition with a similar or better quality of teammate (which is a much more significant factor than competition anyway) than what he had for the entirety of his time here.

A 50-60 point second line winger who is an outscorer at 5v5 would be a godsend for this team right now.

 

[Jamin]

wait.... i thought according to hall defenders klef sucked a**... i thought he was a "terrible useless player" which was why his criticism of hall only collecting points and playing well vs sh***y teams and disappear when the games got tough meant nothing.....

So you don't have a retort to his post?

 

[Soundwave]

Because hockey is a 5v5 sport. If you're not on a top line, odds are your linemates aren't as good as the ones you'd have if you were on a top line. Additionally, top lines are generally given the green light to take risks to create offense, which sometimes results in GA. Second lines are generally more reserved as its quite likely the competition they face likely has the same ability to put the puck in your net.

I think Hall's net point production would've stayed in that 50-60 point pocket he was comfortably producing here on average. I think that second line would've given up more goals than Hall was used to though. And considering the type of personality he is, I don't think that would've sat well with him.

The grass isn't greener over there.

Hall's production here in his last 4 seasons was 233 points in 255 games. That's a .913 ppg pace of production, more equivalent to 75 points, not "50 points".

Of course you're having trouble admitting this trade was horrendous because you don't want to admit how bad Chiarelli is.

 

[space321]

Duchene could be out for a while, which means...

Avs looking likely to get a lottery pick in that trade.

Meanwhile looking at Chiarelli's trades is just depressing lol

 

[Soundwave]

I think Chiarelli may have completed the rare triple crown in Oilers GMing

Worst hockey trade in Oilers history: Hall for Larsson. Note I said "hockey trade" so things like the GM being forced to trade a player because the ownership doesn't have money or trying to bankroll one's failing meat packing business, or a player's wife wanting out because not enough banquets for her to enjoy aren't pure "hockey trades".

Worst UFA signing in Oilers history: Lucic.

Worst draft blunder in Oilers history: Betting on Griffin Reinhart and passing on players like Barzal, Chabot, Boeser, and Connor who were still on the board.

What a special achievement, this guy is one for the ages.

 

[McShogun99]

I'm glad Larsson is on the team but if we were patient I would bet that we could have gotten him at a cheaper cost. Jersey was trending downwards and still would have been a last place team with Larsson. Some time during the season or off season they would have been tempted to move him.

 

[5 Mins 4 Ftg]

Do guys ever tire of talking about Taylor f***ing Hall around here?

 

[Soundwave]

Do guys ever tire of talking about Taylor ****ing Hall around here?

It will be a talking point as long as the team's offence and particularly secondary offence is putrid, because that team basically threw away the player that could have driven the offence when McDavid is not on the ice, and that is presently the largest issue with the team.

 

[5 Mins 4 Ftg]

It will be a talking point as long as the team's offence and particularly secondary offence is putrid, because that team basically threw away the player that could have driven the offence when McDavid is not on the ice, and that is presently the largest issue with the team.

I do not disagree but when is it time to turn the page and look towards solutions? I know it is frustrating for all Oiler fans to have taken 2 steps forward and 2 steps backwards but it has devolved into incessant whining. Lots to talk about other than a 3 year old trade/free agent signing that blew up in Chiarelli's face (which at this point I agree he should lose his job over).

 

[oXo Cube]

I do not disagree but when is it time to turn the page and look towards solutions? I know it is frustrating for all Oiler fans to have taken 2 steps forward and 2 steps backwards but it has devolved into incessant whining. Lots to talk about other than a 3 year old trade/free agent signing that blew up in Chiarelli's face (which at this point I agree he should lose his job over).

The page will be turned when the morons responsible for that ridiculous blunder are handed their walking papers.

Until then it will and should continue.

 

[5 Mins 4 Ftg]

The page will be turned when the morons responsible for that ridiculous blunder are handed their walking papers.

Until then it will and should continue.

Going to be a looooooong time till that ends then.

 

[oXo Cube]

Going to be a looooooong time till that ends then.

Unfortunately you're probably right, but that isn't the fault of the posters here.

 

[5 Mins 4 Ftg]

Unfortunately you're probably right, but that isn't the fault of the posters here.

No, but it makes for boring repetitive reading and pointless speculation. I just figured at some point people should tire of writing and reading the same thing. And at what point does it become just white noise? Thats all I am saying.

 

[Soundwave]

No, but it makes for boring repetitive reading and pointless speculation. I just figured at some point people should tire of writing and reading the same thing. And at what point does it become just white noise? Thats all I am saying.

When Chiarelli is fired, then the page can be turned to some extent.

The reality is too any big trade like that takes years really to properly assess the impact anyway.

 

[belair]

Hall's production here in his last 4 seasons was 233 points in 255 games. That's a .913 ppg pace of production, more equivalent to 75 points, not "50 points".

Of course you're having trouble admitting this trade was horrendous because you don't want to admit how bad Chiarelli is.

In six full seasons in Edmonton Taylor Hall managed to get that 75 point mark once. And at the point of the deal he was three years removed from that achievement.

Only in the fantasyland that is your mind was he going to somehow rebound to being that type of producer despite the plan being his demotion to being a secondary offensive option.

I'm not even talking about the trade. It hasn't even been mentioned in this discussion. We're talking about the fantastical idea that the Oilers somehow missed the boat on some rehashed version of the Gretzky era Oilers--of course minus the Paul Coffey on defense, which could be argued to be fairly important.

 

[Soundwave]

In six full seasons in Edmonton Taylor Hall managed to get that 75 point mark once. And at the point of the deal he was three years removed from that achievement.

Only in the fantasyland that is your mind was he going to somehow rebound to being that type of producer despite the plan being his demotion to being a secondary offensive option.

I'm not even talking about the trade. It hasn't even been mentioned in this discussion. We're talking about the fantastical idea that the Oilers somehow missed the boat on some rehashed version of the Gretzky era Oilers--of course minus the Paul Coffey on defense, which could be argued to be fairly important.

He had the same scoring rate in the shortened season, it's not his fault the NHL/PA had only a 48 game season. So he was ppg twice in Edmonton, even in his last two seasons his scoring rate is above 60 points. So not "50 points".

No one's asking for the 80s Oilers. The Oilers had plenty of opportunity in 2015 and 2016 to be where Toronto and Winnipeg are today.

McDavid at +46 is a rate that would make the Oilers a top 5-6 team in the league even if the 2nd line was just "good" and the other two lines didn't drown too much.

People are angry about that, no one is saying they had to be the 80s Oilers, they should be at minimum as good as several of the other good, young teams in the league and they're not and it's because of this GM.

When McDavid is the on the ice (22 minutes) and Hall is on the ice (18-20 minutes), that should separately give you 40+ minutes where more often that not you are outscoring the competition. All you need to do is find some freaking stiffs that can play the other 18 minutes of hockey without getting scored on like 3 times a game.

 

[MaxR11]

I dont need to prove ****. If its not 5x5, then both Mcdavids and Halls will include PK and PP

Whats best with these replys is that even when you go out spend time to find the exact 5x5 stats and show that Hall and McDavid are not far off (ie both had terrible, terrible support), youd just switch to the next BS narrative to explain that away

At the end of the day, it doesnt matter what you or I say. What matters is that Chiarelli made one of the worst trades in a decade and we get to watch the aftermath unfold every night. The on ice product speaks for itself

and that's part of what i'm saying. stats fool people. it's sooo clear connor is 10x the overall player hall was here. whoopdee do, so hall wasn't on for 130 goals the other team scored on us while we were shorthanded and he was never on the ice while he was on the ice when guys like nuge was driving the pp to ~120 goals despite hall bobbling the puck on it. that stat is completely stupid if it includes pp and sh which i think it probably does. just makes you guys seem like such whiners and pining for a lost love. "wah wah, i want my hallsy".

 

[Soundwave]

and that's part of what i'm saying. stats fool people. it's sooo clear connor is 10x the overall player hall was here. whoopdee do, so hall wasn't on for 130 goals the other team scored on us while we were shorthanded and he was never on the ice while he was on the ice when guys like nuge was driving the pp to ~120 goals despite hall bobbling the puck on it. that stat is completely stupid if it includes pp and sh which i think it probably does. just makes you guys seem like such whiners and pining for a lost love. "wah wah, i want my hallsy".

I want a good freaking hockey team that can actually score.

What an outrageous ask 4 years into the McDavid era, I know.

On top of various other obvious issues, this team is boring as f***. Which for a team with McDavid on it, is really a remarkable feat. It's like putting together a basketball team that is boring to watch with a young Michael Jordan on it.

This is supposed to be entertainment, they can't even manage that part of it well with probably one of the 3 or 4 most exciting athletes in NHL history.

 

[MaxR11]

So you don't have a retort to his post?

and noone retorted to my coment about why hall lovers bash klef like he's a complete a** player and useless because he criticizes hall but then turns around in the same breath to say o but wait, the reason we sucked in 2015-16 was because our great #1 d man was injured.

 

[MaxR11]

I want a good freaking hockey team that can actually score.

What an outrageous ask 4 years into the McDavid era, I know.

so do i. and i agree we need more talented wingers. just not hall.

 

[oXo Cube]

and noone retorted to my coment about why hall lovers bash klef like he's a complete a** player and useless because he criticizes hall but then turns around in the same breath to say o but wait, the reason we sucked in 2015-16 was because our great #1 d man was injured.

I love Taylor Hall, hate that trade, and think Oscar Klefbom is the best D on the Oilers by a lot. Like a real lot.

Next question.

 

[Soundwave]

so do i. and i agree we need more talented wingers. just not hall.

Yeah so good luck now finding a 70+ point winger that can DRIVE a line. The Puljujarvis and Yamamotos of the world don't cut it, and this is an issue that could haunt this team for a long time.

It's not "just a winger", we need a winger that can outscore and tilt the ice on that 2nd line if they want to be a legit good team.

 

[StevenF1919]

and noone retorted to my coment about why hall lovers bash klef like he's a complete a** player and useless because he criticizes hall but then turns around in the same breath to say o but wait, the reason we sucked in 2015-16 was because our great #1 d man was injured.

Literally 0 Hall lovers bash Klefbom. You know why? Because people who love Hall actually like good players and are knowledgeable enough to understand that Klefbom is the best dman this team has had since Visnovsky.

The only people who bash Klefbom are in the same camp as the people who bash Hall. Morons who don't know anything about hockey.

 

[StevenF1919]

Points don't say everything about Hall's game. You won't find many forwards who drive 5v5 possession the way he does. That's arguably just as important as putting up a ton of points.