Player Discussion Filip Chytil

[SnowblindNYR]

More and more he’s looking like a supremely talented player who might not put it all together. I’m not writing him off, and I’m well aware of his age and that players develop at different rates, but I’m not as bullish on him as I was. The trajectory just doesn’t leave me thinking “wow”.

That's quite the hot take.

 

[CasusBelli]

That's quite the hot take.

As in controversial?

 

[Off Sides]

That literally has nothing to do with what I said.



Pretty much all of the better players are looking at having their first time as UFAs be sometime between 27 and 29 now. Most of them never even make it there. Seguin, for example. You don't see a lot of top-end players signing 2-4 year second contracts and then signing long-term third contracts as RFAs that expire when they're 30-31. That's the nature of signing guys to long-term deals off their ELC. The benefit to it is that you are getting them locked in for their most productive seasons and you can plan long-term around that. There's been a shift.

Also, that he *might* hold out sometime in the nebulous future really has no bearing on this. For one thing, no GM is ever going to negotiate thinking that he won't be able to make the next deal happen. Too much ego. For another, you can't have a solid team building plan that way.

The first paragraph kind of explains what the Oilers did with several of their players over the years. I'm not so sure that is the most effective way to deal with the cap unless the player is kind of a can't miss devloping super star.

The 2nd paragraph is kind of the situation the Leafs are running into with Nylander, maybe more players next season.

I think for the Rangers is would be better to kind of leave their options open, which could mean that extra RFA year becomes beneficial. Even in terms of clauses, if he is a UFA at 26, he is going to ask for clauses starting that year, a year before he'd normally be able to.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

As in controversial?

As in impulsive.

 

[Tawnos]

The first paragraph kind of explains what the Oilers did with several of their players over the years. I'm not so sure that is the most effective way to deal with the cap unless the player is kind of a can't miss devloping super star.

The 2nd paragraph is kind of the situation the Leafs are running into with Nylander, maybe more players next season.

I think the for the Rangers is would be better to kind of leave their options open, which could mean that extra RFA year becomes beneficial. Even in terms of clauses, if he is a UFA at 26, he is going to ask for clauses starting that year, a year before he'd normally be able to.

The first paragraph is what everyone is doing now. It's both poorly run and well run organizations. There's a substantial amount of logic in paying your players based on their real production instead of their leverage.

Yes, the 2nd paragraph is what the Leafs are dealing with, but that situation happens like three times a decade.

As for your last point... he will be asking clauses, but so what? If he's the kind of player who is going to get a long-term deal, he's the kind of player we're going to want to keep.

 

[pblawr]

The bar is pretty low for what a 19 year-old playing in the NHL need to do to turn into a very good player:

- Barkov scored 36 in 71 in his D+2 year
- Voracek scored 38 in 80 in his D+2 year
- Kessel scored 37 in 82 in his D+2 year
- Couturier scored 15 in 46 in his D+2 year
- Horvat scored 25 in 68 in his D+2 year
- Ryan O'Reilly scored 26 in 74 in his D+2 year

Especially when you account for the fact that Chytil is younger than all those players (by almost a year in some cases), it doesn't seem to me like it makes sense to get worked up over his production this year (especially since his playing time is limited, his possession stats are good, and his shooting luck should mean revert)

 

[Machinehead]

People talk about Chytil like he had 200 points in the AHL last year. He paced for 55. He's a long ways away from outgrowing that league.

We expected him to go from that to what, exactly, in the NHL?

The tools are clearly there, but he's never been an egregious producer. He's always been a bit of a project. Kreider was similar in that vein and didn't play full-time for the Rangers until he was 23.

And yet, here we are trying to shoehorn this guy into the NHL at 12 years old.

I really feel the minors would be the best place for him.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

People talk about Chytil like he had 200 points in the AHL last year. He paced for 55. He's a long ways away from outgrowing that league.

We expected him to go from that to what, exactly, in the NHL?

The tools are clearly there, but he's never been an egregious producer. He's always been a bit of a project. Kreider was similar in that vein and didn't play full-time for the Rangers until he was 23.

And yet, here we are trying to shoehorn this guy into the NHL at 12 years old.

I really feel the minors would be the best place for him.

I said this months ago. Chytil still has things to learn in the AHL and I never understood why he was on the Rangers to start the season.

 

[Off Sides]

The first paragraph is what everyone is doing now. It's both poorly run and well run organizations. There's a substantial amount of logic in paying your players based on their real production instead of their leverage.

Yes, the 2nd paragraph is what the Leafs are dealing with, but that situation happens like three times a decade.

As for your last point... he will be asking clauses, but so what? If he's the kind of player who is going to get a long-term deal, he's the kind of player we're going to want to keep.

I don't see a whole lot of teams who have a choice allowing their not projected elite entry level players turn into UFAs at age 26 instead of 27? For the cream of the crop players sure it can make sense, they were not likely to be bridged in the first place.

Three times a decade? Nylander, ROR, Trouba, Gaudreau, Subban, Stepan

Clauses, Stepan, currently Zbad, it effects the situation.

 

[Tawnos]

I don't see a whole lot of teams who have a choice allowing their not projected elite entry level players turn into UFAs at age 26 instead of 27? For the cream of the crop players sure it can make sense, they were not likely to be bridged in the first place.

Three times a decade? Nylander, ROR, Trouba, Gaudreau, Subban, Stepan

Clauses, Stepan, currently Zbad, it effects the situation.

Stepan and Gaudreau didn't miss any games. Subban missed 4 games, but negotiations were delayed by the lockout to begin with. In a normal year, he misses training camp, but plays the in the opener. You missed Turris. So... 4 times a decade? Close enough to be "like 3 times." I don't consider "holdouts" where the player didn't miss any games to be a holdout. That's just the player and the team using the start of the season as a leverage point.

I really don't see how it matters if a player is UFA eligible at 26 if he's signed until he's 28 or 29.

Gorton wouldn't have cared about Stepan's clause if the team hadn't be entering a re-tool phase, which turned into a full-blown rebuild phase. Same essential idea with Zibanejad.

 

[pblawr]

I think one thing to consider is that to the extent the reports of him being the best player on the team in practice are true, it might convince management that he's better off developing against NHL players, even if it's in a sheltered role.

 

[Off Sides]

Stepan and Gaudreau didn't miss any games. Subban missed 4 games, but negotiations were delayed by the lockout to begin with. In a normal year, he misses training camp, but plays the in the opener. You missed Turris. So... 4 times a decade? Close enough to be "like 3 times." I don't consider "holdouts" where the player didn't miss any games to be a holdout. That's just the player and the team using the start of the season as a leverage point.

I really don't see how it matters if a player is UFA eligible at 26 if he's signed until he's 28 or 29.

Gorton wouldn't have cared about Stepan's clause if the team hadn't be entering a re-tool phase, which turned into a full-blown rebuild phase. Same essential idea with Zibanejad.

I think the bolded is where we disagree, how can the Rangers know they are signing him long term off his entry level?

And if they do, how can it be the same cap hit as is would be if there were one more RFA year included? Plus clauses a year earlier

And if they do end up bridging him, one less RFA year takes some options off the table.

I guess I don't see any way him having one less RFA year can be construed as an advantageous position for the Rangers to put themselves in?

If he turns out to be elite will it matter as much? I concede probably not but if he turns out anything less than that, just like with any less than elite RFA player, it matters to have more leverage in the negotiations and RFA years left equates to leverage.


A larger list of holdouts, we both missed some
How Common is William Nylander's Contract Holdout?

 

[Tawnos]

I think the bolded is where we disagree, how can the Rangers know they are signing him long term off his entry level?

And if they do, how can it be the same cap hit as is would be if there were one more RFA year included? Plus clauses a year earlier

And if they do end up bridging him, one less RFA year takes some options off the table.

I guess I don't see any way him having one less RFA year can be construed as a advantageous position for the Rangers to put themselves in?

If he turns out to be elite will it matter as much? I concede probably not but if he turns out anything less than that, just like with any less than elite RFA player, it matters to have more leverage in the negotiations and RFA years left equates to leverage.


A larger list of holdouts, we both missed some
How Common is William Nylander's Contract Holdout?

You gotta stop thinking about RFA years as being less valuable. It's not the way teams are thinking about this anymore.

 

[NY Lito]

I think one thing to consider is that to the extent the reports of him being the best player on the team in practice are true, it might convince management that he's better off developing against NHL players, even if it's in a sheltered role.

I have to agree. I think this year is good for Chytil just to get used to the NHL grind, the travel, the practices, etc.

I’m not as high as some are on him but it has nothing to do with the lack of production. Let the kid stay in NY, practice against the vets, get legit coaching, etc. This will all only benefit him in the long run. Stop obsessing that some guys are getting 2-4 more mins of ice time. Chytil will be fine.

 

[Ainec]

I think one thing to consider is that to the extent the reports of him being the best player on the team in practice are true, it might convince management that he's better off developing against NHL players, even if it's in a sheltered role.

really? source on these?

if so I would think guys like Hayes are more open to passing him the puck in the offensive zone, which doesn't seem to be the case

 

[Machinehead]

What goes on in these practices? Jesus...

 

[pblawr]

really? source on these?

if so I would think guys like Hayes are more open to passing him the puck in the offensive zone, which doesn't seem to be the case

A reporter said he was the best guy in practice during training camp and then Hayes made some comments about how dynamic he was when they were put on a line together. I can't track the links down right now, but I'm sure someone else remembers them or they're easy to find. If not, I'll be able to find them later.

 

[NYR713]

I still like the idea of him staying up and playing a minor role while he figures out the NHL level of play. But, if it was a set plan... say 5 or 6 games... I'd be cool with him being sent down. The idea would be... "you know what you can get away with at the NHL at this point so don't go down and start trying to do those things at the AHL level that you know you can't do at the NHL level. Take the experience, knowledge and those things that you know you can do, practice getting better at them and develop new ways to create space and time offensively. After 5 games you'll be back to see how to translate that to the NHL again."

 

[Bluto]

It wouldn't hurt to put chytil down for 10 games or so in the 1c all situation role like we did with lias. Itll happen at some point this year just to get him 23 mins a night.

 

[CasusBelli]

As in impulsive.

Be that as it may — and I hate to keep drawing parallels from my Florida days — I can’t help remembering guys like Nathan Horton and Rusty Olesz. They had the skills. They just didn’t put it all together. Maybe they lacked the proper mentoring. Maybe the coaching was poor. I’m just saying, when I see Chytil, I see Oleszitis and Hortonitis. But maybe my years in Florida just made me cynical.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Horton was a beast before injures set in

 

[FireGerardGallant]

Happy for Lias, but when is this gonna end with Chytil its ridiculous

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Happy for Lias, but when is this gonna end with Chytil its ridiculous

When AV did this, the pitchforks were out. Now that Quinn is doing it, I don't see nearly the outcry I saw under AV. Odd.

 

[Thirty One]

When AV did this, the pitchforks were out. Now that Quinn is doing it, I don't see nearly the outcry I saw under AV. Odd.

I'm seeing a lot of outcry.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I'm seeing a lot of outcry.

Not nearly as much (I am not talking about HFNYR, maybe I should clarify)