Ferland Setback

[Hit the post]

The chiropractor was able to help Crosby relieve symptoms, which had previously been considered concussion related, because the symptoms were in fact not concussion symptoms, and we're from an unresolved neck injury.

One of the difficult things with concussions is that the symptoms could be post-concussion, or a number of non-brain injury related issues.

As mentioned though Crosby's game doesn't require him to be physical unlike Ferland. That complicates the situation.

 

[ChilliBilly]

The league needs to step as they did with Greg Neeld.

They didn’t step in. The rules are clear. At the time you need a vision in both eyes to play in the NHL. Interestingly enough, I played hockey with a couple of the Neelds, and while Greg and sister seem to be decent people, the rest of the Neelds were the scum of the earth. The mother was banned from every ice rink for trying to run down our coach. Anyone want more stories, let me know they were beyond belief. I can’t put them on here because I’m sure they were bad enough that HF boards won’t allow me To tell them.

 

[Peter Griffin]

I really get the feeling that the fight Ferland had in the playin round was his way of testing whether or not he could still play his style at the NHL level. It obviously didn’t go well. At this point he’s risking his long term health if he continues to try and play.

 

[F A N]

They didn’t step in. The rules are clear. At the time you need a vision in both eyes to play in the NHL. Interestingly enough, I played hockey with a couple of the Neelds, and while Greg and sister seem to be decent people, the rest of the Neelds were the scum of the earth. The mother was banned from every ice rink for trying to run down our coach. Anyone want more stories, let me know they were beyond belief. I can’t put them on here because I’m sure they were bad enough that HF boards won’t allow me To tell them.

You need at least 20/400 vision in each eye. Did Malhotra's vision suddenly got worse after being cleared to play? I have trouble believing that.

 

[ChilliBilly]

You need at least 20/400 vision in each eye. Did Malhotra's vision suddenly got worse after being cleared to play? I have trouble believing that.

My comment was entirely about Greg Neeld. Wasn’t meaning to comment on any of the later ones.

 

[VanJack]

Clearly Ferland has been suffering from concussion-related effects for close to two seasons now. I'm no expert in head injuries, but seems to me that if the condition hasn't improved in that time, then a person risks it being permanent. Hockey is at times a violent, contact sport. And collisions are simply part of the game.

You'd have to wonder who in their right mind would try again. But I guess it's inevitably up to the player and hopefully his family.

 

[F A N]

You'd have to wonder who in their right mind would try again. But I guess it's inevitably up to the player and hopefully his family.

Lots of people. Ferland is 28 years old who has worked for everything he has achieved in life. This isn't the first battle he has faced. It's not an easy decision for a player in Ferland's position to decide never to play hockey again.

 

[VanJack]

I know it's a

Lots of people. Ferland is 28 years old who has worked for everything he has achieved in life. This isn't the first battle he has faced. It's not an easy decision for a player in Ferland's position to decide never to play hockey again.

I agree that it's never an easy decision for a player to retire. I'd like to share your optimism that the player alone will ultimately make 'the right decision'.

But sadly, hockey, football and other contact sports are littered with examples of players who refused to see the writing on the wall and risked long-term, permanent damage by trying to come back.....and head injuries are the worst.

According to my count, Ferland has tried to come back on four separate occasions with the Canucks and never lasted more than a game or two. In a rehab assignment in Utica, he couldn't even last a period.

Something must be amiss for a player to off for months; be apparently 'symptom free'; and then not be able to last a period in a real game. I hope at the end of day that Ferland consults with as wide a variety of experts as possible--and most importantly his family--before making his final decision.

 

[Snatcher Demko]

I know it's a

I agree that it's never an easy decision for a player to retire. I'd like to share your optimism that the player alone will ultimately make 'the right decision'.

But sadly, hockey, football and other contact sports are littered with examples of players who refused to see the writing on the wall and risked long-term, permanent damage by trying to come back.....and head injuries are the worst.

According to my count, Ferland has tried to come back on four separate occasions with the Canucks and never lasted more than a game or two. In a rehab assignment in Utica, he couldn't even last a period.

Something must be amiss for a player to off for months; be apparently 'symptom free'; and then not be able to last a period in a real game. I hope at the end of day that Ferland consults with as wide a variety of experts as possible--and most importantly his family--before making his final decision.

Exactly. Ferland's determination is certainly admirable but he needs to hang it up before he ends up in a very bad long-term health situation. You never want to say it out loud but substance abuse (and subsequently tragic outcomes) have happened all too many times for atheletes with head injuries.

 

[krutovsdonut]

it is a really weird situation

in comeback number 4 after three previous rapid fails, he decided to immediately fight someone. after months on the shelf.

there are doctors signing off on these comebacks, so medically he must appear fit each time. whoever the doctors are would be expected to consult with other doctors and get further opinions given what has happened repeatedly.

it's hard to believe he'd be cleared to play so many times if he was seeing concussions symptoms resume each time or other tangible medical evidence of injury presents.

one possibility is that ferlund is having psychological episodes in the nature of ptsd and has no tangible physical injury or concussion symptoms or indications.

 

[F A N]

I know it's a

I agree that it's never an easy decision for a player to retire. I'd like to share your optimism that the player alone will ultimately make 'the right decision'.

But sadly, hockey, football and other contact sports are littered with examples of players who refused to see the writing on the wall and risked long-term, permanent damage by trying to come back.....and head injuries are the worst.

According to my count, Ferland has tried to come back on four separate occasions with the Canucks and never lasted more than a game or two. In a rehab assignment in Utica, he couldn't even last a period.

Something must be amiss for a player to off for months; be apparently 'symptom free'; and then not be able to last a period in a real game. I hope at the end of day that Ferland consults with as wide a variety of experts as possible--and most importantly his family--before making his final decision.

Not a doctor, but Ferland's case is definitely unusual/weird to me. He was apparently symptom free until he took a shift in Utica. If I remember correctly, it was reported by Comet posters that he neither took a hit nor threw one. We were told that it has to do with him tracking the puck. Thinking more about it, I am guessing it could be due to the bright lights and loud noises. Couldn't that be simulated before Ferland took to the ice? At the very least, there doesn't appear to be any "injury" sustained. Then there's a long layoff and Ferland manages to make it back to the Canucks during the play-in. He takes 20 shifts, plays 11+ minutes. Success! He then gets into a fight and he's out again.

So I'm kind of the hope that if he doesn't fight at all he can continue playing.

 

[Peter10]

Not a doctor, but Ferland's case is definitely unusual/weird to me. He was apparently symptom free until he took a shift in Utica. If I remember correctly, it was reported by Comet posters that he neither took a hit nor threw one. We were told that it has to do with him tracking the puck. Thinking more about it, I am guessing it could be due to the bright lights and loud noises. Couldn't that be simulated before Ferland took to the ice? At the very least, there doesn't appear to be any "injury" sustained. Then there's a long layoff and Ferland manages to make it back to the Canucks during the play-in. He takes 20 shifts, plays 11+ minutes. Success! He then gets into a fight and he's out again.

So I'm kind of the hope that if he doesn't fight at all he can continue playing.

If it is really all concussion related it wont help if he just stops fighting, a hard hit is all it could take. There is still not enough information on how concussions exactly work and what long time effect it can have to make a perfect judgement on what to do but the safest thing would indeed be just stop playing.

 

[F A N]

If it is really all concussion related it wont help if he just stops fighting, a hard hit is all it could take. There is still not enough information on how concussions exactly work and what long time effect it can have to make a perfect judgement on what to do but the safest thing would indeed be just stop playing.

That's just illogical. Of course it will help if he stops fighting. Clearly by cutting out fighting he's lowering the risk of being hit in the head.

Playing hockey is an assumed risk. Of course staying at home and not doing anything is just about the safest thing. But people do it. If you're a pitcher in baseball, tommy john surgery is almost inevitable. If you're a goalie playing a butterfly or hybrid style, hip surgery is inevitable. The science says that if you play football it's basically impossible not to suffer a head injury. The same thing likely applies to hockey. It's impossible to play hockey in the NHL without suffering a head injury.

 

[Bankerguy]

Ferland's a 28 year old worth around $10MM
Hang up your skates and enjoy your life..jesus..why would he risk his brain...

 

[Peter10]

That's just illogical. Of course it will help if he stops fighting. Clearly by cutting out fighting he's lowering the risk of being hit in the head.

Playing hockey is an assumed risk. Of course staying at home and not doing anything is just about the safest thing. But people do it. If you're a pitcher in baseball, tommy john surgery is almost inevitable. If you're a goalie playing a butterfly or hybrid style, hip surgery is inevitable. The science says that if you play football it's basically impossible not to suffer a head injury. The same thing likely applies to hockey. It's impossible to play hockey in the NHL without suffering a head injury.

I worded it wrong, of course there is less risk without fighting but it is not drastically altering it. Unless you fight every other game, there is a much higher chance to suffer a concussion from any other hockey play, in particular with his style of play. Your last sentence is pretty much highlighting why he should not play anymore if all his off time this year is related to concussions - it wont end well.

 

[F A N]

I worded it wrong, of course there is less risk without fighting but it is not drastically altering it. Unless you fight every other game, there is a much higher chance to suffer a concussion from any other hockey play, in particular with his style of play.

But Ferland has managed to play NHL games when he wasn't fighting. He couldn't continue after getting into a fight. I think the impact of throwing a hit and absorbing a hit is different from a direct hit to the head.

Your last sentence is pretty much highlighting why he should not play anymore if all his off time this year is related to concussions - it wont end well.

If your position is that nobody should risk a head injury then we should ban all contact sports then because participating in any contact sports would inevitably result in a head injury sooner or later. Crosby should have retired. Every single hit that a player takes shakes the head. Pucks are flying everywhere and can hit the head. Players can take a spill and hit their head on the ice. Like I said, the risk is always there. Players take on the assumed risk.

 

[StreetHawk]

But Ferland has managed to play NHL games when he wasn't fighting. He couldn't continue after getting into a fight. I think the impact of throwing a hit and absorbing a hit is different from a direct hit to the head.



If your position is that nobody should risk a head injury then we should ban all contact sports then because participating in any contact sports would inevitably result in a head injury sooner or later. Crosby should have retired. Every single hit that a player takes shakes the head. Pucks are flying everywhere and can hit the head. Players can take a spill and hit their head on the ice. Like I said, the risk is always there. Players take on the assumed risk.

Ferland will have to weigh risk vs reward. From all reports, he hasn't suffered symptoms to the extent that the likes of Franzen, Savard, etc. have suffered when it comes on and off which wreaks your day(s) out of the blue.

I guess that is the big risk. He's able to recover and get back into an NHL game, but he is not lasting.

I would think that the last thing a player would want is to end up becoming the next Savard/Franzen when the last hit they take gives them years of symptoms.

 

[BenningHurtsMySoul]

That fight was ridiculously stupid and likely sealed his fate in the NHL.

 

[Peter10]

But Ferland has managed to play NHL games when he wasn't fighting. He couldn't continue after getting into a fight. I think the impact of throwing a hit and absorbing a hit is different from a direct hit to the head.



If your position is that nobody should risk a head injury then we should ban all contact sports then because participating in any contact sports would inevitably result in a head injury sooner or later. Crosby should have retired. Every single hit that a player takes shakes the head. Pucks are flying everywhere and can hit the head. Players can take a spill and hit their head on the ice. Like I said, the risk is always there. Players take on the assumed risk.

Its not what I said, his risk for permanent damage is just so much higher than other NHL players just because of his previous concussion history and his symptoms. At some point its not just a risk anymore but rather a question of when it happens.

 

[F A N]

Its not what I said, his risk for permanent damage is just so much higher than other NHL players just because of his previous concussion history and his symptoms. At some point its not just a risk anymore but rather a question of when it happens.

Sure. But you can say that about plenty of players such as Sidney Crosby. Ferland needs to make the call. He's not going to get any judgement from me.

 

[iceburg]

In what other employ would we say that, while the employee can no longer perform the duties for which they were hired, it's up to them whether they want to continue working. Certainly the employer has a say in whether they feel the employee is fit to do the job.
That said, if he is indeed unfit to play, hopefully Ferland comes to that conclusion himself and won't need others to tell him so.

 

[Fatass]

In what other employ would we say that, while the employee can no longer perform the duties for which they were hired, it's up to them whether they want to continue working. Certainly the employer has a say in whether they feel the employee is fit to do the job.
That said, if he is indeed unfit to play, hopefully Ferland comes to that conclusion himself and won't need others to tell him so.

If the Canuck’s doctors (and independent ones too) agree Furley isn’t able to play anymore, because the risk to his health from future concussions is too great, can the Canucks at that point put him on LTIR - even if Furley still wants to play?

 

[iceburg]

If the Canuck’s doctors (and independent ones too) agree Furley isn’t able to play anymore, because the risk to his health from future concussions is too great, can the Canucks at that point put him on LTIR - even if Furley still wants to play?

I asked that question a couple of days ago but didn't get an answer. It could end up in some kind of arbitration I guess - depends what the CBA says...

 

[bandwagonesque]

I asked that question a couple of days ago but didn't get an answer. It could end up in some kind of arbitration I guess - depends what the CBA says...

I would assume it isn't up to the player -- that's why they ask the doctors. But I'd also expect there to be some sort of avenue for players to appeal and seek other medical opinions, and it's pretty much always possible to sue someone.

 

[F A N]

In what other employ would we say that, while the employee can no longer perform the duties for which they were hired, it's up to them whether they want to continue working. Certainly the employer has a say in whether they feel the employee is fit to do the job.
That said, if he is indeed unfit to play, hopefully Ferland comes to that conclusion himself and won't need others to tell him so.

In most other jobs the employer has a duty to accommodate an employee who is unable to perform his or her full duties due to a workplace injury. Of course this is professional sports and not just some other job.

If the Canuck’s doctors (and independent ones too) agree Furley isn’t able to play anymore, because the risk to his health from future concussions is too great, can the Canucks at that point put him on LTIR - even if Furley still wants to play?

Just guessing here, but if Ferland can't get medical clearance to play then it doesn't matter whether he wants to play or not. Just like any player on LTIR he'll have to undergo a yearly physical at the beginning of the season/training camp. The Canucks can't put him on LTIR until the beginning of the season.

If Ferland is "healthy enough to play" as in Ferland is able to go through practices and scrimmages like he has in the past then he will easily be able to obtain medical clearance to play from some doctor. If the Canucks disagree, Ferland and the PA will undoubtedly file a grievance. Ferland has a right to work and the team simply lacks the power, in most instances, to strip that right from him. "One hit away from permanent damage" is very much just speculation no matter how reasonable that speculation is and the science behind concussion isn't established enough where you can predict with reasonable certainty that a certain hit would cause permanent damage to Ferland but not to another player.