Ferland Setback

[RandV]

Clearly you missed the point. Mitchell's health was a serious unknown, he was dealing with terrible post concussion symptoms. Thankfully he bounced back but it very easily could have gone the other way. Ferland is an example of that.

I don't know if I'd use Mitchell as the comparison here. Did Ferland end his season in Carolina with severe concussion or was it just a bunch of little injuries? Because he played 71 games for Carolina, where when we let Mitchell go he only managed 48 games for us. Mitchell was also 32 at that stage, Ferland 27.

Rather, after having just watched Higgins, Burrows, and Hansen burn out in the middle of 4 year deals signed just before 30, why are we repeating the process with guys like Roussel and Ferland? And double points after there was such a bitch fest made about those 3 loyal Canucks having limited NTC's

 

[Seattle Totems]

Because it was the only way to land a feee agent on a team that’s been absolutely horrid for 5 years.

No, we overpay because agents know Canucks management doesn't really have a plan. If we had winning teams they would sign here. If they had a young team with open spots they would sign here.

 

[VanJack]

No, we overpay because agents know Canucks management doesn't really have a plan. If we had winning teams they would sign here. If they had a young team with open spots they would sign here.

It may seem a tad harsh, but I can't think of another NHL franchise in recent years at least, that has a worse record in signing UFA's than the Vancouver Canucks. It isn't just the fact that they consistently overpay and offer up ugly term on the contracts. After all, most teams are forced to overpay in July 1st.

But it's what happens next that is so alarming.....almost none of the guys they sign seems to ever come close to delivering what they thought they'd be getting. In the case of Ferland and Roussel, it was obviously partially injury-related. But you can go down the list: Benn, Myers, Eriksson, Beagle, Schaller, Burmistrov, Del Zotto, Wiercioch...etc. etc...

How can one franchise consistently sign UFA's on July 1st that basically come up flat? The pro scouting department is long overdue for an overhaul.

 

[Fatass]

So Furley finished practice? They had battle drills too, and hard skating. See how he is tomorrow.

 

[MarkMM]

So Furley finished practice? They had battle drills too, and hard skating. See how he is tomorrow.

If that's the case then likely not COVID.

 

[nowhereman]

It may seem a tad harsh, but I can't think of another NHL franchise in recent years at least, that has a worse record in signing UFA's than the Vancouver Canucks. It isn't just the fact that they consistently overpay and offer up ugly term on the contracts. After all, most teams are forced to overpay in July 1st.

But it's what happens next that is so alarming.....almost none of the guys they sign seems to ever come close to delivering what they thought they'd be getting. In the case of Ferland and Roussel, it was obviously partially injury-related. But you can go down the list: Benn, Myers, Eriksson, Beagle, Schaller, Burmistrov, Del Zotto, Wiercioch...etc. etc...

How can one franchise consistently sign UFA's on July 1st that basically come up flat? The pro scouting department is long overdue for an overhaul.

Canucks management has drawn a significant amount of criticism for their awful signings but this is something that can't be overlooked. I just don't understand how everything they touch turns to s***, in a way that almost defies explanation.

Yes, the Eriksson contract was awful. But no one expected him to simply give up and mail it in from day one, embarrassing both himself and the organization. Sutter was an ugly signing but the guy can't even string together 10 games without being injured for the rest of the season. They took a gamble on Ferland and he's out for the rest of the year in the first month. Benn puts together some nice seasons in Montral and then lays an egg as soon as he puts on a Canucks jersey. Baertschi looks like he's ready to take a step, only to get his bell rung to the point where the team is forced to bury him in the minors. Schaller has a career year in Boston and then proceeds to come to Canucks camp unprepared, only to see his career go off the rails soon after. Beagle goes from being a solid contributor on a Cup-winning roster to bleeding chances the next year.

Yes, Canucks scouting as been ugly. And that's being polite. But this management has received the absolute worst possible outcome that one could expect with almost every single one of their pro-scouting moves. You can call it incompetence but it's actually shockingly odd how bad everything has turned out on that front. I don't think you could actively try to make that many mistakes.

 

[StreetHawk]

Canucks management has drawn a significant amount of criticism for their awful signings but this is something that can't be overlooked. I just don't understand how everything they touch turns to s***, in a way that almost defies explanation.

Yes, the Eriksson contract was awful. But no one expected him to simply give up and mail it in from day one, embarrassing both himself and the organization. Sutter was an ugly signing but the guy can't even string together 10 games without being injured for the rest of the season. They took a gamble on Ferland and he's out for the rest of the year in the first month. Benn puts together some nice seasons in Montral and then lays an egg as soon as he puts on a Canucks jersey. Baertschi looks like he's ready to take a step, only to get his bell rung to the point where the team is forced to bury him in the minors. Schaller has a career year in Boston and then proceeds to come to Canucks camp unprepared, only to see his career go off the rails soon after. Beagle goes from being a solid contributor on a Cup-winning roster to bleeding chances the next year.

Yes, Canucks scouting as been ugly. And that's being polite. But this management has received the absolute worst possible outcome that one could expect with almost every single one of their pro-scouting moves. You can call it incompetence but it's actually shockingly odd how bad everything has turned out on that front. I don't think you could actively try to make that many mistakes.

It also very alarming that they continue to take these free agent swings without getting rid of the ones that did not work. Gagner for Spooner was a hope and prayer, but Gagner would be on a buyout had the Canucks not made that trade.

If you miss on a free agent, you can't miss on both term and cap hit. But, the Canucks seem to do both.

 

[rypper]

If that's the case then likely not COVID.

Likely not concussion related either then. Probably out of shape, maybe a only needing a day off kind of temporary injury.

 

[F A N]

Rather, after having just watched Higgins, Burrows, and Hansen burn out in the middle of 4 year deals signed just before 30, why are we repeating the process with guys like Roussel and Ferland?

? Higgins was 30 in the first year of the contract. Burrows was over 30 when he signed his latest 4 year deal with the Canucks. Hansen "burned out" as a Shark and not as a Canuck but injuries played a part.

Roussel signed when he was 28 years old (having turned 29 in November). He has been good in the games that he played. Ferland signed when he was 27. He just turned 28. When Ferland's contract ends he would have just turned 31. Roussel would be 32.

Hansen was crap at age 31 and retired at age 32. None of us expected Hansen's career to end like that when we signed him to a 4 year contract and or traded him to the Sharks.

 

[Fatass]

If that's the case then likely not COVID.

And likely not concussion symptoms if he’s able to go next practice.

 

[MS]

Canucks management has drawn a significant amount of criticism for their awful signings but this is something that can't be overlooked. I just don't understand how everything they touch turns to s***, in a way that almost defies explanation.

Yes, the Eriksson contract was awful. But no one expected him to simply give up and mail it in from day one, embarrassing both himself and the organization. Sutter was an ugly signing but the guy can't even string together 10 games without being injured for the rest of the season. They took a gamble on Ferland and he's out for the rest of the year in the first month. Benn puts together some nice seasons in Montral and then lays an egg as soon as he puts on a Canucks jersey. Baertschi looks like he's ready to take a step, only to get his bell rung to the point where the team is forced to bury him in the minors. Schaller has a career year in Boston and then proceeds to come to Canucks camp unprepared, only to see his career go off the rails soon after. Beagle goes from being a solid contributor on a Cup-winning roster to bleeding chances the next year.

Yes, Canucks scouting as been ugly. And that's being polite. But this management has received the absolute worst possible outcome that one could expect with almost every single one of their pro-scouting moves. You can call it incompetence but it's actually shockingly odd how bad everything has turned out on that front. I don't think you could actively try to make that many mistakes.

Most of this stuff has been very predictable.

- Ferland was a guy propped up by elite linemates in Calgary and Carolina who finished 18-19 on a 24-game goalless streak and Carolina fans came here en masse to tell us his body was breaking down.

- Benn is a 33 y/o depth defender who was never fast to begin with. That he'd lose a step ... not surprising.

- same with Jay Beagle - depth player in his mid-30s. People are surprised when his career goes sideways? DON'T OVERPAY OLD ROLE PLAYERS AND YOU DON'T HAVE THIS PROBLEM.

- Eriksson was a bit surprising in terms of how quickly he sucked but EVERYONE here said at the time of the signing that the last 3-4 years of that contract would be a nightmare.

- Baertschi had serious concussion issues before we acquired him.

- Schaller was a fluke in Boston who had a Jeff Cowan-type streak, but also had major offseason wrist surgery. We bought damaged goods.

Conversely, they've also been very lucky on a few things. Antoine Roussel was a 30 y/o energy player whose career was trending horribly and then came here and had a career year.

 

[deckercky]

Absurd revisionist history. Ferland contract was almost unanimously considered very good when it was signed:

Confirmed Signing with Link: - [VAN] Ferland Signs with Canucks (4 years, $3.5M AAV)

There was some durability concerns, but even considering that risk, it was considered a great deal.

Ferland was a good signing that went poorly.

Even Eriksson was considered the best of the big UFA contracts signed that summer. It was expected to age poorly, like all big UFA contracts, but the main issue was timing - it was an attempt to give the Sedins one last time when there wasn't a good enough team around them.

Beagle was bad day 1 - should never have been signed when there was already so much overcommitted to Sutter.

Baertschi was a solid contributor for several years so I am not sure why we are discussing him.

 

[MS]

Absurd revisionist history. Ferland contract was almost unanimously considered very good when it was signed:

Confirmed Signing with Link: - [VAN] Ferland Signs with Canucks (4 years, $3.5M AAV)

There was some durability concerns, but even considering that risk, it was considered a great deal.

Ferland was a good signing that went poorly.

Even Eriksson was considered the best of the big UFA contracts signed that summer. It was expected to age poorly, like all big UFA contracts, but the main issue was timing - it was an attempt to give the Sedins one last time when there wasn't a good enough team around them.

Beagle was bad day 1 - should never have been signed when there was already so much overcommitted to Sutter.

Baertschi was a solid contributor for several years so I am not sure why we are discussing him.

I can't speak for everyone - and honestly, most fans initially support *every* signing every management group here has made - but several of us here spent 6 months leading up to that signing trying to explain that :

a) Ferland was a 25-point 3rd liner whose stats were hugely inflated by icetime with Gaudreau/Monahan and Aho/Teravainen.

b) While Ferland had been a good 3rd line type in the past, his body was breaking down, he was a massive injury risk, and a player who should not be receiving term on his contract. He finished 18-19 on a 24-game goalless streak and Carolina fans were happy to see the back of him.

And our take was exactly, 100% correct and I don't really have a lot of time for the 'hindsight' claims here.

 

[deckercky]

I posted the general trade board thread, where there's near unanimous support for the signing in terms of value and fit. In fact, nearly all of the pessimism in that thread comes from canucks fans.

 

[sting101]

Well i guess signing Markstrom and Tanev should be avoided at all costs then?

 

[Fatass]

Furley isn’t seeing the ice today. Missed a day, then played, and now missing another day. Seems concussion related.

 

[MS]

Well i guess signing Markstrom and Tanev should be avoided at all costs then?

Chris Tanev is one of my favourite players and, given the total lack of any defenders on this team who can play defense and PK, I think the team should be trying very hard to re-sign him. But if they gave him a Ferland-style 4-year deal at this point given his injury, they should be shot.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Furley isn’t seeing the ice today. Missed a day, then played, and now missing another day. Seems concussion related.

All this really rules out is COVID-19. No team is allowed to disclose the nature of any injury that causes a player to miss games or practice. No one would be surprised if it was post-concussion effects, however.

 

[sting101]

Chris Tanev is one of my favourite players and, given the total lack of any defenders on this team who can play defense and PK, I think the team should be trying very hard to re-sign him. But if they gave him a Ferland-style 4-year deal at this point given his injury, they should be shot.

Fair enough i agree. Mostly because if his drop off in play though. Not because i don't think he will soldier on and give his best. I just don't see value in a 2 zone player who is fragile and his analytics and mistakes are trending badly

And Markstrom? almost 31 with knee issues?

And what about Booth did you agree with that move?

 

[MS]

All this really rules out is COVID-19. No team is allowed to disclose the nature of any injury that causes a player to miss games or practice. No one would be surprised if it was post-concussion effects, however.

Given that he missed a day, then was present again the following day, you wonder if they're just spacing his days to put less strain on him and see how he responds.

If he'd had any sort of PCS-type issue to cause him to miss that initial day, you'd think there's no way in hell he'd be on the ice for a few weeks after that, much less the very next day.

 

[MS]

Fair enough i agree.

And Markstrom? almost 31 with knee issues?

And what about Booth did you agree with that move?

Markstrom's minor knee sprain doesn't cause me much concern. He's been durable over the past several seasons and isn't on the same planet as a Ferland or Tanev.

Do I love signing 30 y/o goalies? No, not really. But the guy is our team MVP and was probably the best goalie in the NHL last year. If this team wants to take a step forward, they have no choice but to sign him and losing him could set the organization back years. You have to try and keep it to 4 years or less, but I don't see another option.

I didn't love the Booth deal, no. That said, he played pretty well until suffering an injury that had nothing to do with his previous concussion problems.

__________

If the team had managed their cap space reasonably, the risk of signing Tanev or Markstrom becomes much less. Conversely, if they'd done a better job of developing system assets or bringing in quality players, you might feel more comfortable letting either or both go and filling from within. But what's happened is both guys are absolutely critical to the team's success but $30 million of crap signings is making re-signing them a huge question mark.

 

[ChuckNorris4Cup]

Ferland is done, it's starting to remind me of Lindros more now tbh. I came to this decision when I watched one of his interviews last year talking about his previous concussion and he was talking about how he wasn't going to rush it this time and make sure he's 100% healthy and recovered from concussion symptoms, and not make the same mistake he made I guess in Calgary or something. Anyways the next interview I saw of him he was I guess 100% good to go by then, he was so confident that he was ready to be playing with the big boys already but Canucks had him go to Utica, and what was it one maybe two games max and he was already done with concussion symptoms again, and here we are now....

 

[bandwagonesque]

Given that he missed a day, then was present again the following day, you wonder if they're just spacing his days to put less strain on him and see how he responds.

If he'd had any sort of PCS-type issue to cause him to miss that initial day, you'd think there's no way in hell he'd be on the ice for a few weeks after that, much less the very next day.

It's also worth remembering these players have been following wildly different training regimens with no trained physio staff around to tailor exercise plans, massage tight muscles, encourage them to stretch/hydrate properly, etc. We're emerging from a prolonged cultural moment where we were all encouraged to sit around and eat takeout.

 

[timw33]

I posted the general trade board thread, where there's near unanimous support for the signing in terms of value and fit. In fact, nearly all of the pessimism in that thread comes from canucks fans.

You are conveniently omitting the posts from Carolina fans warning us about the huge red flags about him not being very effective post-injuries and how his production was exclusively driven by playing with two extremely high skill players.

 

[RandV]

Absurd revisionist history. Ferland contract was almost unanimously considered very good when it was signed:

Confirmed Signing with Link: - [VAN] Ferland Signs with Canucks (4 years, $3.5M AAV)

There was some durability concerns, but even considering that risk, it was considered a great deal.

Ferland was a good signing that went poorly.

Even Eriksson was considered the best of the big UFA contracts signed that summer. It was expected to age poorly, like all big UFA contracts, but the main issue was timing - it was an attempt to give the Sedins one last time when there wasn't a good enough team around them.

Beagle was bad day 1 - should never have been signed when there was already so much overcommitted to Sutter.

Baertschi was a solid contributor for several years so I am not sure why we are discussing him.

A lot of that "great deal" part was because people were expecting Ferland to get more like $5M. Similar to Tyler Myers, he was one of a few players he went way below expectations because the cap space and market just didn't end up being there for them - which I can speak for myself here as that's pretty much what I said in a post on the page you linked. When you go into the summer expecting something like 7x7 for Myers or 5x5 for Ferland, but end up with both at 6x5 and 3.5x4, there's a natural reaction for people to think 'wow great deal!'.

But that's a logical fallacy that really ignores the context of whether or not it's a good deal to begin with. In our case when even with Ferland injured pretty much all year you have to bury Baerstchi on the farm. So rather than using the guy you have who's contract expires when you need to sign Pettersson and Hughes, we have Ferland locked in on the books at the point where you'd imagine he starts declining, if not sooner. Although in this case the injuries got so bad immediately Benning is saved from himself as Ferland will just be LTIR. Same kind of deal with Myers, we got him for lower than you'd expect, but with his contract on payroll now you probably can't afford to resign Tanev.

This has been a recurring issue from day with with Benning where he just adds guys to the team without putting much thought into how it effects what we currently have, and always had a heavy slant towards making the team worse.