FA/Trade Thread 14-15 Season V.15 - I'm Running Out of Thread Titles

[ChillyPalmer]

Buffalo and Winnipeg just completed a large trade where fair value was distributed to both sides.

Why can't the Leafs trade assets with value to another team and get fair value back?

But, I know. "lol they're the Leafs, Kessel's fat, lucky to get a 2nd"

I think Kessel should bring in a great haul, as far as a trade is concerned.

I was talking about the mentality of this fan base. They think Kessel is a heartless slob who should be shipped out ASAP, but only want the other teams best young players and first rounders.

The lack of self-awareness involved is astonishing.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Buffalo and Winnipeg just completed a large trade where fair value was distributed to both sides.

Why can't the Leafs trade assets with value to another team and get fair value back?

But, I know. "lol they're the Leafs, Kessel's fat, lucky to get a 2nd"

I'm tired of the Kessel ****. He's very valuable, and I expect a lot for him, as I do for everyone else. Enough said. Take your frustrations elsewhere if that's a problem. I am a big fan of Kessel. I think he could try a lot harder, but what does he have to try harder for? He has nothing to be motivated for. If he doesn't play top notch, we lose almost every time. If he does, we only win some of the time. He'd be fighting for us to be a bubble team; now or ever. Not exactly the greatest motivation I'd say.

Also, why do people yell at me for making 7 player trades and say they never happen? A 10 player deal just went down and it didn't even involve a superstar, which tend to be the largest deals? We will be making some sizable deals involving our bigger named players, some maybe as big as the Kane deal. Seriously.

 

[Sonny21]

I think Kessel should bring in a great haul, as far as a trade is concerned.

I was talking about the mentality of this fan base. They think Kessel is a heartless slob who should be shipped out ASAP, but only want the other teams best young players and first rounders.

The lack of self-awareness involved is astonishing.

I understand what you're saying, however sometimes there's a difference in a players value and a fan base's opinion on the player.

I don't think you'll find anyone that doubts Kessel's offensive ability, his been very consistent top 10 point producer in the NHL for several years now.

However fans also get to see every single weakness/deficiencies of that player when his playing for your team as well. That shouldn't really impact the expectation one has on Kessel's value/return because they're not fans of his deficiencies.

That's how I feel anyways about it.

 

[Tak7]

I understand what you're saying, however sometimes there's a difference in a players value and a fan base's opinion on the player.

I don't think you'll find anyone that doubts Kessel's offensive ability, his been very consistent top 10 point producer in the NHL for several years now.

However fans also get to see every single weakness/deficiencies of that player when his playing for your team as well. That shouldn't really impact the expectation one has on Kessel's value/return because they're not fans of his deficiencies.

That's how I feel anyways about it.

It's the nature of this market - the Toronto "fishbowl" if you will.

We look and analyze things to death to the point where we lose context & perception.

My favourite are the endless Bozak / Phaneuf bashing threads, where people (often justifiably) point out flaws in players as if they are the worst in the NHL, and then in another thread the SAME PEOPLE claim Bozak & Phaneuf should be able to get you 1st round picks at the deadline lol.

 

[pspot]

I understand what you're saying, however sometimes there's a difference in a players value and a fan base's opinion on the player.

I don't think you'll find anyone that doubts Kessel's offensive ability, his been very consistent top 10 point producer in the NHL for several years now.

However fans also get to see every single weakness/deficiencies of that player when his playing for your team as well. That shouldn't really impact the expectation one has on Kessel's value/return because they're not fans of his deficiencies.

That's how I feel anyways about it.

i don't think its a stretch to say kessel's stats have been inflated because he and the team cheated on defensive responsibilities. We are kind of seeing the reality of that over the past 11 games.

IMO he's a 35 goal 70 to 80 pt guy for sure but he's not a perennial 40+ 80+ pt guy on a good team.

the team isn't and hasn't won, that's why people are critical and expect more....as he should but doesn't

 

[Sonny21]

It's the nature of this market - the Toronto "fishbowl" if you will.

We look and analyze things to death to the point where we lose context & perception.

My favourite are the endless Bozak / Phaneuf bashing threads, where people (often justifiably) point out flaws in players as if they are the worst in the NHL, and then in another thread the SAME PEOPLE claim Bozak & Phaneuf should be able to get you 1st round picks at the deadline lol.

There are extreme's in everything I suppose, but I just don't think it's crazy for someone to not like x player weakness/deficiency but at the same time realize the value they carry because of the strengths they possess or have proven compared to their peers in the NHL and therefor expect or want certain value back in any trade.

 

[Trapper]

There are extreme's in everything I suppose, but I just don't think it's crazy for someone to not like x player weakness/deficiency but at the same time realize the value they carry because of the strengths they possess or have proven compared to their peers in the NHL and therefor expect or want certain value back in any trade.

Your strength needs to be greater than the sum of your weaknesses. If you are going to be an annual -20 player with no D and no compete, you'd better score 50 goals. Otherwise the weakness overrides the good.

 

[Stephen]

Wow, Enroth to Dallas for Lindback and a conditional pick. Buffalo won't even chance it with competent goaltending...

 

[Sonny21]

Your strength needs to be greater than the sum of your weaknesses. If you are going to be an annual -20 player with no D and no compete, you'd better score 50 goals. Otherwise the weakness overrides the good.

I don't understand, I'm not arguing for or even against Kessel here. It's about that poster saying how it's crazy for fans bashing Kessel/Phaneuf/etc and yet they expect a great return.

I was debating that point. Maybe I did a bad job trying to convey that point.

 

[Stephen]

i don't think its a stretch to say kessel's stats have been inflated because he and the team cheated on defensive responsibilities. We are kind of seeing the reality of that over the past 11 games.

IMO he's a 35 goal 70 to 80 pt guy for sure but he's not a perennial 40+ 80+ pt guy on a good team.

the team isn't and hasn't won, that's why people are critical and expect more....as he should but doesn't

Agreed.

A guy like Patrik Elias has been in the league for close to 20 years and gets a ton of respect for not cheating on the offense and sacrificing responsibilities. I'm sure teammates appreciate the fact that he's thinking about the greater good and the net sum of his actions, as well as being mindful not to create defensive messes others have to clean up. That's the benchmark of a great scoring winger.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Wow, Enroth to Dallas for Lindback and a conditional pick. Buffalo won't even chance it with competent goaltending...

There is no one on Buffalo that wear's #97 or #9. I think that is our clue.

 

[Trapper]

I don't understand, I'm not arguing for or even against Kessel here. It's about that poster saying how it's crazy for fans bashing Kessel/Phaneuf/etc and yet they expect a great return.

I was debating that point.

Truth is I really have no idea if they are leaning towards trading Kessel/Phaneuf and even what the return would be. Teams have to be on the limited NTC, have a want for these players (for example Chicago wouldn't) and make adjustments to support 8 million/7 million for 6/7 years.

 

[Stephen]

I don't understand, I'm not arguing for or even against Kessel here. It's about that poster saying how it's crazy for fans bashing Kessel/Phaneuf/etc and yet they expect a great return.

I was debating that point.

I don't think that's unreasonable. Teams routinely trade for guys whom they think they can get better use out of.

 

[Sonny21]

On the subject of NTC, do we have any concrete details of Kessel's NTC and how many teams and etc?

 

[PlietscherDassel]

I love how two teams can come together and make a blockbuster within a week, meanwhile it takes us a year to scout and trade for Dave Steckel lol.

Remember when Steckel was used on the first line (and not just to take the face-off)?
Good times.

The sad thing about this organization is that as a fan you already expect epic collapses and steckelesque players on the top line. Lets be honest if someone would have told us before this season that the Leafs will be in a playoff spot half way through the season having the most dangerous offense in the league and then collapse and completely stop scoring at all most of us would have believed it because thats something the Leafs do. Mike "maybe worth a 2nd rounder" Santorelli probably is our best forward this season and nobody really seems to be surprised about almost everyone else suddenly disappearing. For other fans that may sound like crazy stories that are very unlikely to happen but for us its just another season being a Leafs fan.
I have the same low expectations when it comes to trades and the deadline. People think Shanny is the savior and i respect that but i don't trust Leafs management until y actually see results. I have seen too many saviors come and go to get excited about a every new member of the Leafs front office.

That being said this deadline would be a nice opportunity to prove me wrong Shanny.

 

[Sonny21]

I don't think that's unreasonable. Teams routinely trade for guys whom they think they can get better use out of.

Yeap, it's about being the right fit for that team.

It doesn't mean we as fans can't voice our displeasure and point out a player's weakness/deficiency AND want a good value back.

I can say I don't like player x for various reasons but I also acknowledge what type of value a player with his strengths and stats/etc have in the market place.

 

[Gary Nylund]

im with you

glad your not the gm.

most people think the value of the players in the proposal are apx.

kessel top blue chip prospect +
winnik 3rd +
santorelli 2nd +
franson late 1st

if kessel = jones + 1st then winnik/santorelli/franson = FREE

if jones is not in play the leafs are better off keeping kessel and getting a 1st+2nd+3rd for franson, santorelli, and winnik.

Nashville will likely not trade Jones for Kessel, at least 99% of the fans on their board will tell you that. Thinking they would also add a 1st to make it happen is ludicrous. Think about it this way, who would you rather have, Kessel or Rielly? Then consider the fact that Jones is rated higher than Rielly and you should be well on your way to enlightenment.

I would trade Kessel for Jones and be absolutely thrilled to do so!

 

[Rielly4]

Yeah, no... I've been saying this for a while now... Jones is stupid good, they are not trading him..

Even though they have crazy good depth on D and a lot of offensively gifted guys he is way to good to move. Hes honestly a monster at both ends of the rink already and hes only going to grow as a player, IMO he is going to be a Norris caliber player sooner rather than later, we are not getting Seth Jones for Kessel.

Doesn't mean we should give up on trying to move Kessel though. There are other good possible packages out there. Very interested in picking up another top 10 pick in this draft. Kessel could very well land us one plus a nice shiny prospect.

 

[PlietscherDassel]

Btw if Rogers + Bell really agree to do a full rebuild through the draft (something i still don't believe) and trade Bernier (even though it sounds like a move we might regret) i want Shanny to trade for/sign Bryz to replace Bernier. He would be perfect to take the media pressure away from our young players and not win too many games. Just imagine Leo an Bryz talking about the universe and stuff. I would watch that show.

 

[Magic Man]

Nashville will likely not trade Jones for Kessel, at least 99% of the fans on their board will tell you that. Thinking they would also add a 1st to make it happen is ludicrous. Think about it this way, who would you rather have, Kessel or Rielly? Then consider the fact that Jones is rated higher than Rielly and you should be well on your way to enlightenment.

I would trade Kessel for Jones and be absolutely thrilled to do so!

You shouldn't think about it that way.

The Leafs are within a few points of 3rd last in the league and are in a hard tank. They will naturally keep the younger, cheaper, high upside building block over the older, more proven piece. A Rielly type blue-chip would build the foundation of any Kessel deal.

The Predators are the #1 team in the NHL. They are in win-now mode. Their strength is on defense, they've always lacked the offensive ability up front to contend. Take from the strength to fix the weakness.

It would be awesome if the Preds could get Kessel and keep Jones, while giving up nothing that will ever be able to hold his jock strap and guarantee themselves multiple cups, but that's not helping Toronto at all.

 

[Teeder9]

Agreed.

A guy like Patrik Elias has been in the league for close to 20 years and gets a ton of respect for not cheating on the offense and sacrificing responsibilities. I'm sure teammates appreciate the fact that he's thinking about the greater good and the net sum of his actions, as well as being mindful not to create defensive messes others have to clean up. That's the benchmark of a great scoring winger.

Good post. Not sure the idea of responsibility has ever been mentioned in a serious conversation with a lot of these guys in the past couple years.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

You shouldn't think about it that way.

The Leafs are within a few points of 3rd last in the league and are in a hard tank. They will naturally keep the younger, cheaper, high upside building block over the older, more proven piece. A Rielly type blue-chip would build the foundation of any Kessel deal.

The Predators are the #1 team in the NHL. They are in win-now mode. Their strength is on defense, they've always lacked the offensive ability up front to contend. Take from the strength to fix the weakness.

It would be awesome if the Preds could get Kessel and keep Jones, while giving up nothing that will ever be able to hold his jock strap and guarantee themselves multiple cups, but that's not helping Toronto at all.

This is what I'm thinking. I'm just thinking that if anyone wants Kessel, it's going to cost A LOT. Jones is the only thing they have that they can afford to let go, unless they just offer us a bunch of quantity which doesn't help us too much really (we'll get that from trading all of our players in the end), that will be able to add up to get Kessel. They won't move Forsberg. Fiala is nice, but not good enough to be the center piece. So yeah...

 

[Stand Witness]

Looks like taking a shot at Eklund lol

 

[Teeder9]

This is what I'm thinking. I'm just thinking that if anyone wants Kessel, it's going to cost A LOT. Jones is the only thing they have that they can afford to let go, unless they just offer us a bunch of quantity which doesn't help us too much really (we'll get that from trading all of our players in the end), that will be able to add up to get Kessel. They won't move Forsberg. Fiala is nice, but not good enough to be the center piece. So yeah...

Maybe we add Franson to that deal, take back Jones and Fiala, and whatever crap contracts they don't want. I doubt they move Jones anyway just because poile has always been a defense first GM, but this helps them now and later and gives them incentive to part with him. That said, if i'm Poile, and i'm using Jones as a piece in a trade, it's for a #1 center, not a winger.

 

[beer123]

Originally Posted by Renaud Lavoie

Saw a rumor today. #lightning Jonathan Drouin for #leafs Morgan Reilly !!! That's quite something no ? Guess what, it won't happen.

Found it on Neogaf.com.