Evander Kane

[TheBeard]

Yes, now you see what I mean

Not really. The atmosphere is bad and anything BB enforces is meaningless since he's a lame duck coach. The players don't respect him because of that which was my point.

 

[GoldenSeal]

Given there’s a thread on a different board are: The Sharks looking to trade Kane, is there a way for the Sharks to void his contract at this point?

 

[hockfan1991]

Sharks are not buying him out, that’s ridiculous.

 

[Le Rosbeef]

Serious point: all pro sports teams have chemistry issues at times. If it's not what you want it to be, CHANGE it.

Kane has some off the ice issues to put it mildly, but this whole "he's bad in the locker room" thing needs resolving. They're grown ups. It's what a coaching staff is supposed to do!

 

[PacificOceanPotion]

Serious point: all pro sports teams have chemistry issues at times. If it's not what you want it to be, CHANGE it.

Kane has some off the ice issues to put it mildly, but this whole "he's bad in the locker room" thing needs resolving. They're grown ups. It's what a coaching staff is supposed to do!

To be fair, the coaching staff shouldn't have to deal with baby sitting guys or mediating at every turn. It should be an internal leadership thing that handles that. Pure hypothetical here, but if other leaders of the team are coming to Kane with issues they have with his off ice stuff, being late, blah blah, and he's not receptive or confrontational, then that's an issue that the coaching staff wouldn't be able to handle anyway. You're just dealing with a bad apple at that point because he produces on the ice. Purely my pov and opinion.

 

[Sharksrule04]

How many other teams had two Hall of Fame forwards for their entire primes and still failed to win a championship during DW's tenure with the Sharks?

DW built cup worthy teams, they didn't win cups. He did exactly what you ask of a GM. Bring in the talent to win.

 

[Sharksrule04]

ZERO basis? Are you suggesting it’s hard to find a scoring forward declining in his 30s?

Plus, you can use stats from 1-2 years ago to prove his point.

I'm suggesting he's been improving since playing with the Sharks and a consistent scorer. He just had his best season. Applying what the average 30+ player does as fact that Kane will decline is foolish. It's like when we acquired him and a whole bunch of people were saying "this is a terrible deal because he will likely get hurt, physical players always get hurt". Where have those people been the last 3 years?

 

[Sharksrule04]

Plus he became a pretty good passer and he seemed to have his temper under control. This whole ordeal couldn’t have come at a worse time for him or the team.

Exactly! I have no issues with people saying they don't want him on the team because of his reported issues but don't go justifying the opinion with nonsense like "he's easily replaceable" or "he's going to decline". Kane has been a very good player since we acquired him and absolutely lived up to his contract to this point and that should end the conversation relating to his on ice performance.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

To be fair, the coaching staff shouldn't have to deal with baby sitting guys or mediating at every turn. It should be an internal leadership thing that handles that. Pure hypothetical here, but if other leaders of the team are coming to Kane with issues they have with his off ice stuff, being late, blah blah, and he's not receptive or confrontational, then that's an issue that the coaching staff wouldn't be able to handle anyway. You're just dealing with a bad apple at that point because he produces on the ice. Purely my pov and opinion.

It's a mix of both. The players should handle interpersonal relationships but when that fails, coaches and management need to get off their ass and do something. They already failed if they never disciplined Kane for breaking team rules like it has been reported. The idea that the coaches can't handle the players having an issue with Kane being late is ludicrous. They absolutely can handle that by sitting the guy or suspending the guy for breaking team rules. You don't do that because you necessarily expect Kane to change his ways on this. You do it so that the other guys know they can't be late if you expect them to take you seriously as a coach.

 

[Hodge]

DW built cup worthy teams, they didn't win cups. He did exactly what you ask of a GM. Bring in the talent to win.

DW deserves credit for building very good teams on a consistent basis but the Sharks were never the best team in any season. With the exception of 2009 they were eliminated by teams that were better than them. He never adequately addressed goaltending, coaching or forward depth and those issues cost them in the playoffs over and over again.

Anyway the current team is a mess on and off the ice which is why he needs to go instead of being allowed to coast off past accomplishments that, while impressive, never achieved the ultimate goal.

 

[Hodge]

Exactly! I have no issues with people saying they don't want him on the team because of his reported issues but don't go justifying the opinion with nonsense like "he's easily replaceable" or "he's going to decline". Kane has been a very good player since we acquired him and absolutely lived up to his contract to this point and that should end the conversation relating to his on ice performance.

So Kane is going to be the first player in history not to decline in his 30s? Again he was a career ~55 point player before the weird COVID season. There are a ton of NHL forwards who can score 55 points if you play them 20 minutes a night and on the first power play unit the way the Sharks use Kane. That's the definition of replaceable.

Kane's value on the ice is being overrated in this thread due to recency bias and some fans needing to cling to the lone bright spot from another terrible season.

 

[one2gamble]

Interpersonal issues can be handled by the team but if the coach is not holding everyone to the same standards, it's on him. It just exacerbates the other issues.

 

[PacificOceanPotion]

It's a mix of both. The players should handle interpersonal relationships but when that fails, coaches and management need to get off their ass and do something. They already failed if they never disciplined Kane for breaking team rules like it has been reported. The idea that the coaches can't handle the players having an issue with Kane being late is ludicrous. They absolutely can handle that by sitting the guy or suspending the guy for breaking team rules. You don't do that because you necessarily expect Kane to change his ways on this. You do it so that the other guys know they can't be late if you expect them to take you seriously as a coach.

I guess part of where I was coming from was BB's comments at his end of yr presser where he alluded to these types of potential issues. Its like, yeah, he failed in holding guys accountable, but I wonder how much his hands were tied by management and ownership? I could see a "turn a blind eye for this guy, we're trying to make the playoffs and sell more tickets" type message which is trash but possible.

 

[tiburon12]

So Kane is going to be the first player in history not to decline in his 30s? Again he was a career ~55 point player before the weird COVID season. There are a ton of NHL forwards who can score 55 points if you play them 20 minutes a night and on the first power play unit the way the Sharks use Kane. That's the definition of replaceable.

Kane's value on the ice is being overrated in this thread due to recency bias and some fans needing to cling to the lone bright spot from another terrible season.

Since his first season, Kane is 6th in TOI on the PP behind Burns, Couture, Karlsson, Labanc, and Hertl. He's rarely been a 1st unit guy, and only twice in his career has he had over 10 PPP. In fact, this season he had only 7PPP, but had 4SHP. He also only played 15mins average at EV.

These are easy stats to look up, yet you are still purposefully throwing out baseless claims to prove a point. Kane is a ~30 goal guy, excellent on the PK and in 5v6 situations, doesn't rely on the PP for points, and can be a physical presence. If he is so replaceable, please identify 5 players who match his profile that are available to replace him

 

[Sharksrule04]

So Kane is going to be the first player in history not to decline in his 30s? Again he was a career ~55 point player before the weird COVID season. There are a ton of NHL forwards who can score 55 points if you play them 20 minutes a night and on the first power play unit the way the Sharks use Kane. That's the definition of replaceable.

Kane's value on the ice is being overrated in this thread due to recency bias and some fans needing to cling to the lone bright spot from another terrible season.

No one said he won't be. Simply saying that he will definitely decline in the next 4 years (the time remaining on his deal) because the average 30 year old does is foolish, especially when factoring in his recent performance. Also there are plenty of players who remain consistent in the early and sometimes even mid portions of their 30's.

I find it funny that you think it's worse for people to overrate him based on his own recent performance but it's ok for you to underrate him based on other random players performance in their 30's. No one is saying he's an amazing player. There is a group of us who are simply saying lets not group his on ice performance which has been very good with his off ice issues which absolutely suck. There is enough reason to get rid of him based on off-ice issues.

 

[Hodge]

Since his first season, Kane is 6th in TOI on the PP behind Burns, Couture, Karlsson, Labanc, and Hertl. He's rarely been a 1st unit guy, and only twice in his career has he had over 10 PPP. In fact, this season he had only 7PPP, but had 4SHP. He also only played 15mins average at EV.

These are easy stats to look up, yet you are still purposefully throwing out baseless claims to prove a point. Kane is a ~30 goal guy, excellent on the PK and in 5v6 situations, doesn't rely on the PP for points, and can be a physical presence. If he is so replaceable, please identify 5 players who match his profile that are available to replace him

Here's a stat for you: Kane leads the league in minor penalties since he joined the Sharks with a whopping 89. Just doing some rough math and assuming a 80% PK that's around 18 goals against directly attributable to his penalty taking. Any forward you plug into Kane's role who can even score 20 goals a season while not taking penalties (or drawing more than they take) has effectively replaced Kane's net value to the team. Seems like it should be pretty easy to find a player like that for $7 million.

 

[tiburon12]

Here's a stat for you: Kane leads the league in minor penalties since he joined the Sharks with a whopping 89. Just doing some rough math and assuming a 80% PK that's around 18 goals against directly attributable to his penalty taking. Any forward you plug into Kane's role who can even score 20 goals a season while not taking penalties (or drawing more than they take) has effectively replaced Kane's net value to the team. Seems like it should be pretty easy to find a player like that for $7 million.

Cool, so again you just ignore fact placed in front of you and devoid yourself of any responsibility to back up the claims you make.

Also, great math dude. 18 goals against from his 89 minors is over 3 seasons, not 1. By your logic, Kane is responsible for 6 GA/season, not 18 lol.

Next time, try answering what has been called of you. If he is replaceable, name some players who can replace him!

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I guess part of where I was coming from was BB's comments at his end of yr presser where he alluded to these types of potential issues. Its like, yeah, he failed in holding guys accountable, but I wonder how much his hands were tied by management and ownership? I could see a "turn a blind eye for this guy, we're trying to make the playoffs and sell more tickets" type message which is trash but possible.

I can agree that what you're suggesting is possible but then that speaks to a much bigger problem that needs to be addressed. Problem is that that sort of issue will only be handled by Hasso because it involves either clarifying to DW that some things take priority over being competitive to sell tickets like accountability or finding a new GM.

 

[Hodge]

Cool, so again you just ignore fact placed in front of you and devoid yourself of any responsibility to back up the claims you make.

Also, great math dude. 18 goals against from his 89 minors is over 3 seasons, not 1. By your logic, Kane is responsible for 6 GA/season, not 18 lol.

Next time, try answering what has been called of you. If he is replaceable, name some players who can replace him!

Read my post again and tell me where I said the 18 goals against was per season. I did not. If it was 18 goals against per season you could replace Kane with a 10 goal scorer who doesn't take penalties and come out ahead.

Every player has different strengths and weaknesses. I care more about replacing Kane's (or any other departing player's) net value to the team than finding an exact analogue to his game which is why I'm pointing out that ANY forward capable of scoring around 20 goals and 45 points in Kane's minutes while not having an ugly penalty differential is capable of replacing the vast majority of Kane's value.

In terms of current UFAs I suspect Tatar and Johansson could probably accomplish that and for less than half the cap hit. Hell you could probably sign both for a combined $7 million. Internally someone like Dahlen or Leonard might be able to pop in 20 goals and 40ish points if you played him on Hertl's wing all season and you would have another $6 million to replace the rest of Kane's value elsewhere in the lineup.

 

[Mafoofoo]

Read my post again and tell me where I said the 18 goals against was per season. I did not. If it was 18 goals against per season you could replace Kane with a 10 goal scorer who doesn't take penalties and come out ahead.

Every player has different strengths and weaknesses. I care more about replacing Kane's (or any other departing player's) net value to the team than finding an exact analogue to his game which is why I'm pointing out that ANY forward capable of scoring around 20 goals and 45 points in Kane's minutes while not having an ugly penalty differential is capable of replacing the vast majority of Kane's value.

In terms of current UFAs I suspect Tatar and Johansson could probably accomplish that and for less than half the cap hit. Hell you could probably sign both for a combined $7 million. Internally someone like Dahlen or Leonard might be able to pop in 20 goals and 40ish points if you played him on Hertl's wing all season and you would have another $6 million to replace the rest of Kane's value elsewhere in the lineup.

Leonard's my dude but I don't think he's putting up those numbers just yet. Hertl isn't prime Joe Thornton.

 

[Hodge]

Leonard's my dude but I don't think he's putting up those numbers just yet. Hertl isn't prime Joe Thornton.

Leonard scoring 20 goals is a stretch for sure but if you give him, Barabanov, Balcers and Dahlen an increased opportunity I think they can be part of a committee that replaces Kane's production. Some of them will undoubtedly flop but some will succeed too.

 

[Boy Hedican]

DW deserves credit for building very good teams on a consistent basis but the Sharks were never the best team in any season. With the exception of 2009 they were eliminated by teams that were better than them. He never adequately addressed goaltending, coaching or forward depth and those issues cost them in the playoffs over and over again.

Anyway the current team is a mess on and off the ice which is why he needs to go instead of being allowed to coast off past accomplishments that, while impressive, never achieved the ultimate goal.

I’m no DW apologist, but he did great building this team for our 2016 run. We absolutely were the second best team in the league and if Pitt wasn’t also firing on all cylinders (and younger) we could have had our cup.

 

[tiburon12]

Read my post again and tell me where I said the 18 goals against was per season. I did not. If it was 18 goals against per season you could replace Kane with a 10 goal scorer who doesn't take penalties and come out ahead.

Every player has different strengths and weaknesses. I care more about replacing Kane's (or any other departing player's) net value to the team than finding an exact analogue to his game which is why I'm pointing out that ANY forward capable of scoring around 20 goals and 45 points in Kane's minutes while not having an ugly penalty differential is capable of replacing the vast majority of Kane's value.

In terms of current UFAs I suspect Tatar and Johansson could probably accomplish that and for less than half the cap hit. Hell you could probably sign both for a combined $7 million. Internally someone like Dahlen or Leonard might be able to pop in 20 goals and 40ish points if you played him on Hertl's wing all season and you would have another $6 million to replace the rest of Kane's value elsewhere in the lineup.

You said a 20 goal scorer would be a positive over the 18 goals against Kane caused the team. It's implied you were comparing apples to apples one season, otherwise you would have used a smaller goal total to make your point.

20 goals and 45 points is not Kane's value either! Your moving the goal posts to make his impact seem less significant. He is far closer to a 30 goal 55-60 point player. He's eclipsed 45 in every full season in SJ, the last two with significantly less games than 82.

Tatar cannot fill that role, nor could Johansson. Still waiting for other suitable options for such a "replaceable" player

 

[TheBeard]

I was mistakenly hard on Kane’s on-ice performance earlier this season but I realized how wrong I was. Anyone thinking it’s that easy to just replace Kane on the ice for the same 7 million is just lying to themselves.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I was mistakenly hard on Kane’s on-ice performance earlier this season but I realized how wrong I was. Anyone thinking it’s that easy to just replace Kane on the ice for the same 7 million is just lying to themselves.

It depends on what your goals are. If the goal is to replace him to remain competitive as the team has said repeatedly then it's not going to happen by any one player really. Best you can hope for is that when his open spot is given to another winger and the cascading effect of open spots lower in the lineup is given to someone else that they increase their productivity. Meier returns to 30 goal form. Barabanov plays roughly around a 20 goal level. Labanc and Balcers put in 15-20 goals. Whoever slides into the 3rd line winger roles put up 10-15 goals as well. You're not getting a top line winger between now and the trade deadline in all likelihood.