Management Eugene Melnyk -Lawsuits, rants, and more...

[Sweatred]

We didn't need Bobby Ryan and was only a band aid for losing Alfie. Murnyk handcuffed this organization.

Fans seemed to be pretty happy at the time ...

 

[Stylizer1]

Fans seemed to be pretty happy at the time ...

Losing Alfie and getting Ryan? Fans liked getting Ryan but if you gave them the choice Alfie would win in a landslide.

 

[Sweatred]

Losing Alfie and getting Ryan? Fans liked getting Ryan but if you gave them the choice Alfie would win in a landslide.

I don’t doubt that ... the same group that would gladly give EK $92 million.

Alfredson was a 40 year old UFA who went to a team at their peak with a bunch of his buddies. What he chose didn’t really impact our hockey.

 

[Stylizer1]

Melnyk bought the team with Martin, , Muckler, Mlakar in place and over time replaced them with Murray.

 

[Stylizer1]

I don’t doubt that ... the same group that would gladly give EK $92 million.

Alfredson was a 40 year old UFA who went to a team at their peak with a bunch of his buddies. What he chose didn’t really impact our hockey.

Alfie went to the next best place to enjoy his last 1 or 2 seasons with a chance to win. It didn't have a big effect on hockey but it did on the fan base.

The reason Erik was worth money is because this was his team. There were signs the team was moving towards being great but every year they would subtract from the team with cheaper options. In the end he was not worth the money because the team around him was garbage. We could of had more productive years out of him but they chose to go the cheap route. Keeping Alfie and Spezza in place while the young players developed was the type of leadership you need in a locker room. They chose to throw that away and give the reigns the inexperience. Alfie and Spezza should have retired Senators and had their numbers retired and been part of the organization moving forward. Instead they want nothing to do with it because of Melnyk. That's what fans see, that the players they cheered for where pawns just as they are.

 

[Sensung]

Alfie went to the next best place to enjoy his last 1 or 2 seasons with a chance to win. It didn't have a big effect on hockey but it did on the fan base.

The reason Erik was worth money is because this was his team. There were signs the team was moving towards being great but every year they would subtract from the team with cheaper options. In the end he was not worth the money because the team around him was garbage. We could of had more productive years out of him but they chose to go the cheap route. Keeping Alfie and Spezza in place while the young players developed was the type of leadership you need in a locker room. They chose to throw that away and give the reigns the inexperience. Alfie and Spezza should have retired Senators and had their numbers retired and been part of the organization moving forward. Instead they want nothing to do with it because of Melnyk. That's what fans see, that the players they cheered for where pawns just as they are.

Really solid post.

The failure to spend and maintain the core started well before the sell off of EK, Stone and Duchene.

 

[DaveMatthew]

I agree but it doesn’t totally dismiss the low of level interest towards ownership of this franchise.

I feel like there is a lot of push back from the notion that Ottawa just isn’t a great sports town.

I think calling Ottawa a bad "sports town" is a lazy argument. There are so many unique challenges in this market, including:

• Significantly smaller population when compared to Toronto, Vancouver, etc.
• In between two foundational, original 6 markets
• Bi-lingual population spread across two provinces
• Small corporate base and the primary employer is the Federal Government, who cannot expense tickets
• Lack of a centralized arena (if you live in Orleans, it can take you upwards of 1.5 hours to get to a game on a weeknight. You might as well go to Montreal)

Nobody thinks making this franchise a success is easy. You have to create and execute on a plan that takes into account all of the complexities above. You need people who are creative and can connect and understand with the local community.

That's not what Eugene Melnyk has done.

A good measure of "fan contribution" would be walk-up/individual seat sales, and we do very well there.
Corporate/group/season ticket sales? That's where there's no strategy, and that's what's dragging the franchise down.

 

[Sweatred]

Alfie went to the next best place to enjoy his last 1 or 2 seasons with a chance to win. It didn't have a big effect on hockey but it did on the fan base.

The reason Erik was worth money is because this was his team. There were signs the team was moving towards being great but every year they would subtract from the team with cheaper options. In the end he was not worth the money because the team around him was garbage. We could of had more productive years out of him but they chose to go the cheap route. Keeping Alfie and Spezza in place while the young players developed was the type of leadership you need in a locker room. They chose to throw that away and give the reigns the inexperience. Alfie and Spezza should have retired Senators and had their numbers retired and been part of the organization moving forward. Instead they want nothing to do with it because of Melnyk. That's what fans see, that the players they cheered for where pawns just as they are.

I get that’s what “some” fans see. What Spezza saw was a fan base that was constantly criticizing him to the point that he asked for a trade. When given the choice he decided to volunteer ($1 mill) in Toronto vs coming back here.

You have a very pro fan centric view. I share some of those feelings but our fan base has a roll in all of this too. We ran Spezza out of town, we don’t swipe our credit cards etc etc.

 

[Sweatred]

I think calling Ottawa a bad "sports town" is a lazy argument. There are so many unique challenges in this market, including:

• Significantly smaller population when compared to Toronto, Vancouver, etc.
• In between two foundational, original 6 markets
• Bi-lingual population spread across two provinces
• Small corporate base and the primary employer is the Federal Government, who cannot expense tickets
• Lack of a centralized arena (if you live in Orleans, it can take you upwards of 1.5 hours to get to a game on a weeknight. You might as well go to Montreal)

Nobody thinks making this franchise a success is easy. You have to create and execute on a plan that takes into account all of the complexities above. You need people who are creative and can connect and understand with the local community.

That's not what Eugene Melnyk has done.

Would you call it a good sports town ? I bet players and owners would prefer to be in Buffalo than Ottawa.

 

[dumbdick]

There were signs the team was moving towards being great...

Lol.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Would you call it a good sports town ? I bet players and owners would prefer to be in Buffalo than Ottawa.

Yes I think it's a good sports town.

We have a population of under 1 million and 18,000+ fans filled our NHL rink for years, even though it was in the middle of nowhere. Our OHL team is considered a model franchise in the CHL. RedBlacks games are a great place to be. Any time we host a big event (WJC, Women's World Cup) it goes great. Participation in youth and recreational sports is high, and we have tons of great facilities.

For years we were considered a model franchise that players wanted to be a part of. Many have made Ottawa their home even after they retired.

Ottawa's a great place to live and has great fans. But I guess no, it's not Toronto or New York.

And yeah, I think a lot of players who play in Buffalo love it there, as well.

 

[Micklebot]

I think as soon as you start trying to evaluate fan bases as good or bad, you've probably already gone down the wrong path. The truth of the matter likely lies in evaluating markets in terms of more or fewer fans. There's nothing in the water that makes fans from one city to the next inherently different. And the level of commitment the average fan gives likely has more to do with the reasons a team gives them to be committed than the fan being inherently good or bad.

The reality is that we have one of the smaller markets. That already small market was disproportionately filled with fans of other teams due to our proximity between two established markets. And on top of that we have among the smallest corporate base to draw from, meaning the individual fans are required to pull more weight than in a typical market to keep attendance up.

Those realities will exist whether or not we are winning or losing, whether the arena is down town or in the boonies, and it will exist whether the owner spends or doesn't. They will exist regardless of whether or not the team is managed well or poorly, whether we commit to winning or to being fiscally responsible.

What that does is makes our outward appearance less resilient to pressure; when the team loses, the product is boring, the management loses faith of the average fan, there aren't as many of the businesses eating up tickets, or die hard fans who will stick it out. Our mix of casual fans, regular fans, and die hard fanatics is likely not discernibly different than any other markets, we just have fewer due to the realities of a young franchise dropped in between two of the biggest fan bases in the league. That's not to say a team can't influence the degree of fan engagement in their product, just that the fans here are going to respond to the same stimulus, be it better on ice product or better marketing ect, in the same way as fans in other markets would. The hope is with every new generation, we grab a bigger share of the next generation of locals, as opposed to somehow changing the mix of mythical "good/bad" fans.

 

[Sweatred]

I think as soon as you start trying to evaluate fan bases as good or bad, you've probably already gone down the wrong path. The truth of the matter likely lies in evaluating markets in terms of more or fewer fans. There's nothing in the water that makes fans from one city to the next inherently different. And the level of commitment the average fan gives likely has more to do with the reasons a team gives them to be committed than the fan being inherently good or bad.

The reality is that we have one of the smaller markets. That already small market was disproportionately filled with fans of other teams due to our proximity between two established markets. And on top of that we have among the smallest corporate base to draw from, meaning the individual fans are required to pull more weight than in a typical market to keep attendance up.

Those realities will exist whether or not we are winning or losing, whether the arena is down town or in the boonies, and it will exist whether the owner spends or doesn't. They will exist regardless of whether or not the team is managed well or poorly, whether we commit to winning or to being fiscally responsible.

What that does is makes our outward appearance less resilient to pressure; when the team loses, the product is boring, the management loses faith of the average fan, there aren't as many of the businesses eating up tickets, or die hard fans who will stick it out. Our mix of casual fans, regular fans, and die hard fanatics is likely not discernibly different than any other markets, we just have fewer due to the realities of a young franchise dropped in between two of the biggest fan bases in the league. That's not to say a team can't influence the degree of fan engagement in their product, just that the fans here are going to respond to the same stimulus, be it better on ice product or better marketing ect, in the same way as fans in other markets would. The hope is with every new generation, we grab a bigger share of the next generation of locals, as opposed to somehow changing the mix of mythical "good/bad" fans.

I 100% agree with all of those reasons. I also know where Ottberia would rank if I had my choice of cities to sell 18500 tickets a night or attract 28 year old millionaires. There are a few smaller markets around North America that for different reasons have a "great fan base" and we aren't one of them.

 

[DaveMatthew]

I 100% agree with all of those reasons. I also know where Ottberia would rank if I had my choice of cities to sell 18500 tickets a night or attract 28 year old millionaires. There are a few smaller markets around North America that for different reasons have a "great fan base" and we aren't one of them.

What are those markets?

 

[Sweatred]

Off the top of my head in no order ...

1. Kansas City
2. Buffalo
3. Green Bay
4. Salt Lake City
5. Nashville

I think it would be easier to sell tickets in any of the other CDN markets... with Winnipeg being close. I also think all of the buildings would have better fan experiences (ignoring our recent crash).

 

[DaveMatthew]

Off the top of my head in no order ...

1. Kansas City
2. Buffalo
3. Green Bay
4. Salt Lake City
5. Nashville

I think it would be easier to sell tickets in any of the other CDN markets... with Winnipeg being close. I also think all of the buildings would have better fan experiences (ignoring our recent crash).

Kansas City - For football, sure. But the Royals were a poorly attending laughing stock for years.

Buffalo - Again for football, sure. The Sabres had a renaissance in the renaissance during and after the Briere/Drury teams, but when the team is bad, attendance drops. In 02/03, it hit a low of ~13k per game and this season is their 3rd in a row with declining attendance.

Green Bay - As with the top two, you can't compare support for NFL teams and NHL teams. Football team fandom isn't limited to a specific city, it spreads across an entire state. Green Bay's market isn't just the city of "Green Bay", it's the entire state of Wisconsin and its' population of 6 million.

Salt Lake City - Sure, they're very loyal to the Jazz.

Nashville - Quite bit bigger than Ottawa, and their NHL attendance surge has corresponded with being one of the best teams in the league. It'd be the same here.

And in terms of fan experience, yeah, I agree. But I'd hesitate to say it's because of bad fans, but because of where the rink is.

If you're going to a Sens game, someone in your party has to drive. There's nowhere nearby to grab drinks before a game.

Sober crowd = worse fan experience.

Vegas crowds are incredible because everyone is boozed up and ready to hit the tables after the game.

In Ottawa, we're ready to fight traffic to get to the Centrum and grab a table at Jack Astor's.

 

[Sweatred]

Kansas City - For football, sure. But the Royals were a poorly attending laughing stock for years.

Buffalo - Again for football, sure. The Sabres had a renaissance in the renaissance during and after the Briere/Drury teams, but when the team is bad, attendance drops. In 02/03, it hit a low of ~13k per game and this season is their 3rd in a row with declining attendance.

Green Bay - As with the top two, you can't compare support for NFL teams and NHL teams. Football team fandom isn't limited to a specific city, it spreads across an entire state. Green Bay's market isn't just the city of "Green Bay", it's the entire state of Wisconsin and its' population of 6 million.

Salt Lake City - Sure, they're very loyal to the Jazz.

Nashville - Quite bit bigger than Ottawa, and their NHL attendance surge has corresponded with being one of the best teams in the league. It'd be the same here.

And in terms of fan experience, yeah, I agree. But I'd hesitate to say it's because of bad fans, but because of where the rink is.

If you're going to a Sens game, someone in your party has to drive. There's nowhere nearby to grab drinks before a game.

Sober crowd = worse fan experience.

Vegas crowds are incredible because everyone is boozed up and ready to hit the tables after the game.

In Ottawa, we're ready to fight traffic to get to the Centrum and grab a table at Jack Astor's.

Hey .. you can cherry pick high and low attendance any way you want. In the end, if you think Ottawa has great fans all the power to you. I bet you none of our past pro football/hockey/baseball/soccer owners would agree with you.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Hey .. you can cherry pick high and low attendance any way you want. In the end, if you think Ottawa has great fans all the power to you. I bet you none of our past pro football/hockey/baseball/soccer owners would agree with you.

I bet Jeff Hunt would give you a very different answer about the "quality" of Ottawa sports fans than Eugene Melnyk and Lonie Glieberman.

 

[Sweatred]

I bet Jeff Hunt would give you a very different answer about the "quality" of Ottawa sports fans than Eugene Melnyk and Lonie Glieberman.

They are not a pro team and I hear they aren’t without their struggles even with their wining the past few years. They have the 2ND largest building in league and I think the largest attendance base in a league that survives off 3-5000 fans at $15 tickets. That’s not evidence of strong professional sport support.

 

[DaveMatthew]

They are not a pro team and I hear they aren’t without their struggles even with their wining the past few years. They have the 2ND largest building in league and I think the largest attendance base in a league that survives off 3-5000 fans at $15 tickets. That’s not evidence of strong professional sport support.

View media item 7591
Is that evidence of strong professional support?

Your argument boils down to Ottawa having "bad fans" because of declining attendance over the last 4 seasons, a period where we've become a basement-dwelling team, had our best players and fan-favorites leave, and had a parade of public relations embarrassments.

Yet, you completely ignore a period of 10+ years where we had a competently run team (led by Cyril Leeder, Bryan Murray/John Muckler and Daniel Alfredsson), on-ice success, and solid attendance.

 

[Sweatred]

View media item 7591
Is that evidence of strong professional support?

Your argument boils down to Ottawa having "bad fans" because of declining attendance over the last 4 seasons, a period where we've become a basement-dwelling team, had our best players and fan-favorites leave, and had a parade of public relations embarrassments.

Yet, you completely ignore a period of 10+ years where we had a competently run team (led by Cyril Leeder, Bryan Murray/John Muckler and Daniel Alfredsson), on-ice success, and solid attendance.

Again ... if you think Ottawa is a great sports town ... all the power to you. I don’t. No biggie.

1. The Sens had an exciting rise into the playoffs and to the cup. I’m not sure we will ever be as excited as we were for making the playoffs the first time and cup final.

2. we don’t know the true extent of papering. It could have hidden minor or major issues.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Why have a debate about the topic of attendance when neither side has access to any hard information? There's arguments to disprove either side. But without any actual facts (paid attendance records, financial disclosures, etc.) there's really no point in discussing the subject.

Here's what I do know: Ottawa has always been one of the least expensive teams to attend in all of the NHL and has been consistently dead last of all the Canadian teams for as long as I can find the info about ticket pricing.

Anyone who thinks this is a team that should be spending significantly more based on that fact alone is the definition of having "champagne taste on a beer budget".

You can't have one of the cheapest products in the league and expect a high-end spending output at the same time.

 

[Sensung]

Why have a debate about the topic of attendance when neither side has access to any hard information? There's arguments to disprove either side. But without any actual facts (paid attendance records, financial disclosures, etc.) there's really no point in discussing the subject.

Here's what I do know: Ottawa has always been one of the least expensive teams to attend in all of the NHL and has been consistently dead last of all the Canadian teams for as long as I can find the info about ticket pricing.

Anyone who thinks this is a team that should be spending significantly more based on that fact alone is the definition of having "champagne taste on a beer budget".

You can't have one of the cheapest products in the league and expect a high-end spending output at the same time.

Why have the debate when you only look at one aspect of revenues?

The closest we have to the truth in Forbes suggests that Ottawa has similar revenue to markets how spend far more.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

This one hit 1000 - New thread is up.