Management Eugene Melnyk -Lawsuits, rants, and more...

[BatherSeason]

I imagine that the current revolt by frustrated fans probably could have been mitigated by better management,

100%. Hiring a POHO when you say you will and not firing every senior executive you hire could also go a long way into helping fill the seats.

 

[Sweatred]

No, but neither does saying "be a better fan."

I agree with that however where do you rank Ottawa fans in Canada? Are we “better” than anyone ?

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

The Islanders lost JT and their fans are not protesting that they can’t keep talent.

To this point, losing Tavares was seen as very much a Tavares issue and not an Islanders issue. Most NYI fans acknowledged that the team did everything they could to hang onto him but he wanted to be elsewhere. Yes, there were probably mitigating factors including arena, size of fanbase and money. But the overriding feeling was that the Islanders wanted to hold onto their talent but weren't able to do it. I don't think you'll find many Sens fans — the vocal fringe, sure, but not a critical mass — saying the team sincerely wanted to keep Karlsson, Stone, Hoffman or Turris.

Now, have the results turned out better than expected? Sure. We're in a fine position. But in the same way that doing everything right can still lead to an unfavourable result, the opposite is true too. This team has been comically mismanaged and the common factor always seems to be a lack of funds. Melnyk, then, either:

1) doesn't have enough money to be competitive in the NHL as an owner and has no intent of being competitive in the near future, but hopes to be able to still make a profit by slashing costs
2) has enough money to be competitive, but is waiting until the right time to strike (which is what is being sold to the fans under the guise of FYOUS), or
3) has enough money to be competitive, but prefers not to invest it into the team for a myriad of possible reasons (which would then lead to the question, if the owner of the team won't invest in it, why should we?)

Option 2 is the only especially palatable one, but with the track record so far it's really hard to blame fans for being skeptical until we see it. Option 1 seems most likely based on everything we've seen over the past few years, IMO. Simplest solution requiring the fewest assumptions.

 

[Sensung]

The Islanders brought in Lou Lamoriello and Barry Trotz.

The Senators have Pierre Dorion and DJ Smith.

Fantastic point.

If the Sens would stop buying from the bargain bin on all aspects of the organization, it would be much easier to sell this as a real rebuild and not just a financially motivated firesale.

 

[Sweatred]

To this point, losing Tavares was seen as very much a Tavares issue and not an Islanders issue. Most NYI fans acknowledged that the team did everything they could to hang onto him but he wanted to be elsewhere. Yes, there were probably mitigating factors including arena, size of fanbase and money. But the overriding feeling was that the Islanders wanted to hold onto their talent but weren't able to do it. I don't think you'll find many Sens fans — the vocal fringe, sure, but not a critical mass — saying the team sincerely wanted to keep Karlsson, Stone, Hoffman or Turris.

Now, have the results turned out better than expected? Sure. We're in a fine position. But in the same way that doing everything right can still lead to an unfavourable result, the opposite is true too. This team has been comically mismanaged and the common factor always seems to be a lack of funds. Melnyk, then, either:

1) doesn't have enough money to be competitive in the NHL as an owner and has no intent of being competitive in the near future, but hopes to be able to still make a profit by slashing costs
2) has enough money to be competitive, but is waiting until the right time to strike (which is what is being sold to the fans under the guise of FYOUS), or
3) has enough money to be competitive, but prefers not to invest it into the team for a myriad of possible reasons (which would then lead to the question, if the owner of the team won't invest in it, why should we?)

Option 2 is the only especially palatable one, but with the track record so far it's really hard to blame fans for being skeptical until we see it. Option 1 seems most likely based on everything we've seen over the past few years, IMO. Simplest solution requiring the fewest assumptions.

I like the summary ... but we’re we not $7 million under the cap a few years back looking at an aging roster and high end talent reach UFA.

I don’t like EM but I can see why he wouldn’t want to drag out that roster by boosting it with the $30/year it would take to keep the UFA’s. EK didn’t preform any magic in SJ this year. They would be so much better off with Norris, their pick,, and $11.5 of cap space.

 

[Sensung]

Melnyk has been behaving for nearly a year.

Guess you forgot the Jim Little debacle.

 

[Sweatred]

Or calling fans who wanted our talent signed "stupid".


Good thing you don't insult others...

Correct - it’s a “phrase” not directed at any specific person.

 

[Sensung]

Correct - it’s a “phrase” not directed at any specific person.

Not any specific person...just EVERY SINGLE person who doesn't share your point of view.

 

[Micklebot]

I agree that there is value in good management ... but I find it outrageous that “we” are suggesting the Sens have a poor commitment to winning because they didn’t pay $30 million a season for 8 more years of EK, MD, and MS.

Trading those three players will likely ensure more winning than keeping those players would have.


Players use the term “commitment” to winning as their PR term to talk about “players getting paid”.... I think it is foolish for us to make the same connection, especially with aging/injured UFA’s.

I think trying to distill peoples feeling that the team isn't committed to winning down to not signing the 3 UFA you mentioned is a very facile and frankly dubious interpretation of events.

The team has a long history of losing fans faith in their commitment to winning. Certainly our budget plays into it all, and sometimes long term decisions require taking a short term step back, I think we all recognize that.

We've gone over a decade of hiring the cheapest coaches on the market for example. We opted to run among the smallest front offices and scouting departments in the league. We've promoted internally for our GM when we really lacked the organizational depth to provide the needed support to a rookie GM. Non of this can be brushed away with commitment to winning is code for players wanting to get paid.

Coming off a ECF loss, we opted to replace Methot with Oduya right as the team received a fat 15 mil expansion check, not exactly a move a team committed to winning before Karlsson and Stone become UFA would do.

 

[Sweatred]

I think trying to distill peoples feeling that the team isn't committed to winning down to not signing the 3 UFA you mentioned is a very facile and frankly dubious interpretation of events.

The team has a long history of losing fans faith in their commitment to winning. Certainly our budget plays into it all, and sometimes long term decisions require taking a short term step back, I think we all recognize that.

We've gone over a decade of hiring the cheapest coaches on the market for example. We opted to run among the smallest front offices and scouting departments in the league. We've promoted internally for our GM when we really lacked the organizational depth to provide the needed support to a rookie GM. Non of this can be brushed away with commitment to winning is code for players wanting to get paid.

Coming off a ECF loss, we opted to replace Methot with Oduya right as the team received a fat 15 mil expansion check, not exactly a move a team committed to winning before Karlsson and Stone become UFA would do.

There are lots of different angles to this on both sides ... but I feel when most fans reference the Sens being cheap it’s about the EK tpye stuff and not the coaches salary.

We clearly are a frugal, cheaply run organization. I’m just lumping “some” fan responsibility into that formula.

It would be harder to do if we had sold out arenas for playoff games. I think every Sens owner would recognize this is a difficult fan market.

I agree with all the things fans are annoyed about their owner ... I just disagree with the feeling that “we the fan” is not a variable in our finance issues.

 

[Sensung]

Coming off a ECF loss, we opted to replace Methot with Oduya right as the team received a fat 15 mil expansion check, not exactly a move a team committed to winning before Karlsson and Stone become UFA would do.

Great post.

Add in the profits based on the extended playoff run and Eugene's promise to "spend when the time is right" comes across as pure BS and provides ample evidence to suggest that FYOUS is a ruse.

 

[Tuna99]

The Islanders brought in Lou Lamoriello and Barry Trotz.

The Senators have Pierre Dorion and DJ Smith.

Lamp Reilly was going to hire DJ to be his coach until Trotz wasn’t given a co tract by Washington after his Stanley Cup.

DJ Smith is an excellent coach. He’s the least of Ottawa problems. Jacques Martin was one of the lowest paid coaches when he was hired in Ottawa, he’s still the best coach they ever had.

 

[BatherSeason]

Guess you forgot the Jim Little debacle.

Casino lawsuit was also less than a year ago.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Lamp Reilly was going to hire DJ to be his coach until Trotz wasn’t given a co tract by Washington after his Stanley Cup.

DJ Smith is an excellent coach. He’s the least of Ottawa problems. Jacques Martin was one of the lowest paid coaches when he was hired in Ottawa, he’s still the best coach they ever had.

It wasn't meant to be a dig at DJ Smith. He may very well have a long, successful career as a head coach.

I was replying to the comment that Tavares left the Islanders and "fans aren't complaining about losing talent".

The reason they're not complaining is that they offset that loss by bringing in one of the best GMs, and coaches, of all-time, to right the ship.

If they brought in a rookie coach and let Garth Snow continue as GM, I doubt they'd be as enthusiastic.

 

[harrisb]

What has been the Sens actual dollar spend on player salaries over the last say 5 years and how does that compare to the rest of the league? I don't care what the cap number was.

 

[Sweatred]

What has been the Sens actual dollar spend on player salaries over the last say 5 years and how does that compare to the rest of the league? I don't care what the cap number was.

Good or bad I think EM should be judged for his expenditure through 2017-18... it’s been an orchestrated cost cutting tear down since.

 

[harrisb]

Good or bad I think EM should be judged for his expenditure through 2017-18... it’s been an orchestrated cost cutting tear down since.

So ignore recency so that it paints a rosier picture? That is not how accurate reporting works unfortunately. You can see how it's changed year to year and that will help with the teardown argument.

 

[Sweatred]

So ignore recency so that it paints a rosier picture? That is not how accurate reporting works unfortunately. You can see how it's changed year to year and that will help with the teardown argument.

paint it anyway you like. I think pre 2017 we saw EM the owner (at his best) and post we’ve seen the cost cutting owner trying to clear a path to get out of the business.

 

[DaveMatthew]

I agree with that however where do you rank Ottawa fans in Canada? Are we “better” than anyone ?

Who knows, it's impossible to measure.

I do know that other Canadian markets have had their fair share of attendance issues, though. And (surprise, surprise), it's correlated to having bad teams. It turns out that people don't want to spend a ton of money to watch bad hockey, even in Canada!

• Vancouver averaged under 17,000 fans per game between 97/98 and 00/01, hitting a low of 14,641 in 99/00 (right after they traded Bure... hmmm....)
• Edmonton averaged under 17,000 fans per game between 90/91 and 02/03. In those 13 seasons of lukewarm support, they averaged under 14,000 3 times, hitting a low of 12,335 per game in 95/96.
• Calgary had a rough patch between 97/98 and 03/04, averaging under 17,000 each year and hitting a low of 15,320 in 99/00.

Winnipeg and Quebec City lost their teams.

So are we "better" than anyone? I have no idea.

But if your metric is attendance, other Canadian markets don't seem to like losers either.

And if we're ranking fans, we should rank other things:

• Where do the Senators rank in terms of on-ice results compared to other Canadian teams?
• Where do the Senators rank in terms of arena accessibility and proximity to restaurants/bars/entertainment compared to other Canadian teams?
• How long, on average, would it take a person in other cities to get from the downtown core (where most people work) to the rink on a weekday, compared to Ottawa?
• How easy is it to get to the rink via public transit in Ottawa, compared to other Canadian teams?

 

[Sweatred]

Who knows, it's impossible to measure.

I do know that other Canadian markets have had their fair share of attendance issues, though. And (surprise, surprise), it's correlated to having bad teams. It turns out that people don't want to spend a ton of money to watch bad hockey, even in Canada!

• Vancouver averaged under 17,000 fans per game between 97/98 and 00/01, hitting a low of 14,641 in 99/00 (right after they traded Bure... hmmm....)
• Edmonton averaged under 17,000 fans per game between 90/91 and 02/03. In those 13 seasons of lukewarm support, they averaged under 14,000 3 times, hitting a low of 12,335 per game in 95/96.
• Calgary had a rough patch between 97/98 and 03/04, averaging under 17,000 each year and hitting a low of 15,320 in 99/00.

Winnipeg and Quebec City lost their teams.

So are we "better" than anyone? I have no idea.

But if your metric is attendance, other Canadian markets don't seem to like losers either.

And if we're ranking fans, we should rank other things:

• Where do the Senators rank in terms of on-ice results compared to other Canadian teams?
• Where do the Senators rank in terms of arena accessibility and proximity to restaurants/bars/entertainment compared to other Canadian teams?
• How long, on average, would it take a person in other cities to get from the downtown core (where most people work) to the rink on a weekday, compared to Ottawa?
• How easy is it to get to the rink via public transit in Ottawa, compared to other Canadian teams?

I think one way measure our market is by the number and amount owners are willing to pay to get into this market.

 

[DaveMatthew]

I think one way measure our market is by the number and amount owners are willing to pay to get into this market.

There are many other things that go into that calculation, though.

The arena, for example.

If we had a centrally-located/downtown arena that was, let's say, 10 years old, the value of this franchise would be significantly more than it is right now, where we have a 24 year old arena that's in a west-end suburb.

The price would be different, but the market would be the same.

We also don't know how many offers the NHL team would get should the team ever be put up for sale. Both Melnyk and the NHL have said there is no discussion of selling, so there's no way for anyone to know what the interest would be.

Using the situation in 2003 as an example isn't useful, since so much has changed: salary cap, revenue sharing, TV contracts, NHL brand value, online media landscape, etc.

It's a completely different world.

 

[Stylizer1]

I agree that there is value in good management ... but I find it outrageous that “we” are suggesting the Sens have a poor commitment to winning because they didn’t pay $30 million a season for 8 more years of EK, MD, and MS.

Trading those three players will likely ensure more winning than keeping those players would have.

Players use the term “commitment” to winning as their PR term to talk about “players getting paid”.... I think it is foolish for us to make the same connection, especially with aging/injured UFA’s.

Goal.....................................................Post.

Had better management been in place with the emergence of Stone, Karlsson, Hoffman, Zibanejad, Silfverberg, we could of had a core to build around. The fact that the team imploded shouldn't negate the fact that we had developed our own players to build around. Incompetent coaching, general managers and owner are the reason for the demise not the players.

This team has shown no loyalty to players but we are supposed to be loyal to the team?

The chemistry was gone for them to re-sign Stone, Duchene, and Karlsson as seen by the way the team perform that season. Everyone wanted out and made sure they got out. When you lose the players you lose the fans.

 

[Sweatred]

There are many other things that go into that calculation, though.

The arena, for example.

If we had a centrally-located/downtown arena that was, let's say, 10 years old, the value of this franchise would be significantly more than it is right now, where we have a 24 year old arena that's in a west-end suburb.

The price would be different, but the market would be the same.

We also don't know how many offers the NHL team would get should the team ever be put up for sale. Both Melnyk and the NHL have said there is no discussion of selling, so there's no way for anyone to know what the interest would be.

Using the situation in 2003 as an example isn't useful, since so much has changed: salary cap, revenue sharing, TV contracts, NHL brand value, online media landscape, etc.

It's a completely different world.

I agree but it doesn’t totally dismiss the low of level interest towards ownership of this franchise.

I feel like there is a lot of push back from the notion that Ottawa just isn’t a great sports town.

 

[Sweatred]

Goal.....................................................Post.

Had better management been in place with the emergence of Stone, Karlsson, Hoffman, Zibanejad, Silfverberg, we could of had a core to build around. The fact that the team imploded shouldn't negate the fact that we had developed our own players to build around. Incompetent coaching, general managers and owner are the reason for the demise not the players.

This team has shown no loyalty to players but we are supposed to be loyal to the team?

The chemistry was gone for them to re-sign Stone, Duchene, and Karlsson as seen by the way the team perform that season. Everyone wanted out and made sure they got out. When you lose the players you lose the fans.

Bobby Ryan was one of our organizations biggest acquisitions ... not sure where your going there.

I didn’t like how we shied away from extending Zibby. I’m glad we moved Turris, EK, MD etc. I wish we could have kept Stone but we don’t know if he would of stayed anyway. EM May have you wear that one.

 

[Stylizer1]

Bobby Ryan was one of our organizations biggest acquisitions ... not sure where your going there.

I didn’t like how we shied away from extending Zibby. I’m glad we moved Turris, EK, MD etc. I wish we could have kept Stone but we don’t know if he would of stayed anyway. EM May have you wear that one.

We didn't need Bobby Ryan and was only a band aid for losing Alfie. Murnyk/Dohnyk handcuffed this organization after that.