Management Eugene Melnyk - Lawsuits, rants and more... Part Deux

[GCK]

Is there any documented interest ( from Lutke ) in owning any sports franchise?

Agree, not every billionaire cares about owning a sports team.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Lots of groundwork was completed already. Location is set, parameters of land acquisition and soil remediation are done, construction including soil work is about 3 years.

Melnyk will be out before the current local broadcast deals expire since he will only get a fraction of the existing deal.

For little Jim's Library... not entire site, IMO

Gonthier says the next three steps include a request for tender for early works such as excavation and site remediation, expected in August, followed by industry engagement through the fall of 2020 and the winter of 2021, and then a request for tender for building the facility in spring of 2021.

 

[DueDiligence]

Is there any documented interest ( from Lutke ) in owning any sports franchise?

None that I know of. He does like snowboarding though!

 

[BankStreetParade]

20,000 news jobs?! lmfao
Pretty much every single study ever done on the return on investment by a city into sports stadium shows that it generates very little additional income for the city. It implies that the money spent at the stadium and surroundings would not have been spent by the population in the community.
You want a stadium then use the only reasonable and defendable argument - a hockey team brings (or should) some Civic pride, some excitement etc to the sizeable chunk of the population that cares.
Any economic argument is silly, and has been debunked.

If we were only talking about the construction of an arena your point would be far, far more salient. We're talking about the construction of an entire neighbourhood with approx. 4,000 residential units, 2 event centers and dozens of local businesses. So now none of that has any economic value? Absurd.

 

[DueDiligence]

Agree, not every billionaire cares about owning a sports team.

Totally agree. But as I said you need the financial means and have the desire to own a sports team. The former is the tough part. There are only 45 Canadian billionaires and there are only 2 in Ottawa. 5 of those 45 either own all or part of an NHL team; and that list no longer has EM on it!

 

[Micklebot]

If we were only talking about the construction of an arena your point would be far, far more salient. We're talking about the construction of an entire neighbourhood with approx. 4,000 residential units, 2 event centers and dozens of local businesses. So now none of that has any economic value? Absurd.

So... none of that will occure without a public money going to a downtown arena?

The reason there was 4000 residential units in the proposal is because a need existed. Developers will likely build residential units to meet that need regardless, be it at lebreton, or somewhere else in the city. Local businesses will pop up to support the increased needs too. The arena isn't what drives those residences and businesses, at least not entirely, so you need to isolate what proportion of new economic growth was driven specifically by the arena, and then weigh that against the opportunity cost of public funds going elsewhere.

I'm sure for example, had the NCC handed the lebreton lands over to developers not including an arena in their plans, we'd have a crapload of economic growth too, with no need for public funds. It's the impact of including an arena vs not including one that is relevant, not the impact of the businesses and residences that were in the original lebreton arena plans because that plot of land in and of itself creates a lot of opportunity for economic growth when offered up for development.

 

[JD1]

So... none of that will occure without a public money going to a downtown arena?

The reason there was 4000 residential units in the proposal is because a need existed. Developers will likely build residential units to meet that need regardless, be it at lebreton, or somewhere else in the city. Local businesses will pop up to support the increased needs too. The arena isn't what drives those residences and businesses, at least not entirely, so you need to isolate what proportion of new economic growth was driven specifically by the arena, and then weigh that against the opportunity cost of public funds going elsewhere.

I'm sure for example, had the NCC handed the lebreton lands over to developers not including an arena in their plans, we'd have a crapload of economic growth too, with no need for public funds. It's the impact of including an arena vs not including one that is relevant, not the impact of the businesses and residences that were in the original lebreton arena plans because that plot of land in and of itself creates a lot of opportunity for economic growth when offered up for development.

the opportunity cost of public funds going elsewhere is something that is a just a losing battle all the way around....there will always be a better way to allocate public money....always...that said, as a mid sized north american city, i think we need to look at what makes this an attractive city and having that downtown world class facility is important....it appears to be important enough to jurisdictions pretty much all over north america to invest (or expend) funds towards its development....except here in ottawa ... today's reality is that cities compete against one another for investment dollars and while you likley couldn't draw a direct line from a major private sector investment in infrastructure and jobs, having a major current downtown facility would certainly be part of any marketing spiel put forward by the city when trying to attract investment dollars....

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Public funding for an arena is essential. If funding isn’t found I might
have to sell the team to somebody who might move it.” —Mario Lemieux
[Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 2001]

#LemieuxOUT

Civic Pride

 

[Micklebot]

the opportunity cost of public funds going elsewhere is something that is a just a losing battle all the way around....there will always be a better way to allocate public money....always...that said, as a mid sized north american city, i think we need to look at what makes this an attractive city and having that downtown world class facility is important....it appears to be important enough to jurisdictions pretty much all over north america to invest (or expend) funds towards its development....except here in ottawa ... today's reality is that cities compete against one another for investment dollars and while you likley couldn't draw a direct line from a major private sector investment in infrastructure and jobs, having a major current downtown facility would certainly be part of any marketing spiel put forward by the city when trying to attract investment dollars....

Yeah, that's fair, but the way the lebreton plot of land was rfp'd, they could and did require that bidders include a marquee item to lure future growth in marketting spiels. I think had we not been trying to ensure a bid with an arena win the rfp, we would have something that still included marketable highlights and not require public funds but who knows.

Its also worth noting we already have an arena, albeit not downtown, so we already market it. What's the added value to the city in marketing a downtown modern arena vs what we currently have?

I guess its a bit like buying an entry Lexus vs a loaded Toyota. You'll get better value out of the latter but the Lexus sure would be nice...

 

[Rand0m]

Public funding for an arena is essential. If funding isn’t found I might
have to sell the team to somebody who might move it.” —Mario Lemieux
[Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 2001]

#LemieuxOUT

Civic Pride

Honestly, I don't really support any public funding of pro sports arenas unless there's a measurable and reliable way to recoup that investment over a certain agreed upon time period. The minute a billionaire is using some "tax shelter" to avoid paying income tax in a country, they shouldn't be getting ANY public money since they're not putting their fair share into the proverbial pot. We all know what Melnyk's deal is, he doesn't live in Canada, he has likely earned most his income in Canada and had to come back here to get his liver transplant. Maybe he should have asked the residents of Barbados for a liver.

I think a big difference is that Mario Lemieux was not the most hated business person in the city and was likely willing to work WITH his partners to get a deal done.

 

[Masked]

Totally agree. But as I said you need the financial means and have the desire to own a sports team. The former is the tough part. There are only 45 Canadian billionaires and there are only 2 in Ottawa. 5 of those 45 either own all or part of an NHL team; and that list no longer has EM on it!

But how many of those billionaires who want to own an NHL team can own one in their hometown? Melnyk, back when he was a billionaire, would have much preferred to own one in Toronto but that clearly wasn't an option.

 

[JD1]

Yeah, that's fair, but the way the lebreton plot of land was rfp'd, they could and did require that bidders include a marquee item to lure future growth in marketting spiels. I think had we not been trying to ensure a bid with an arena win the rfp, we would have something that still included marketable highlights and not require public funds but who knows.

Its also worth noting we already have an arena, albeit not downtown, so we already market it. What's the added value to the city in marketing a downtown modern arena vs what we currently have?

I guess its a bit like buying an entry Lexus vs a loaded Toyota. You'll get better value out of the latter but the Lexus sure would be nice...

idk, it just seems to me that our current arena location fits perfectly in to our city's reputation as a boring place.....i remember about 10 years back being in Montreal for a huge Saturday night game against Boston....i was in the downtown core at 3 and the buzz was palpable....it was just electric....we hit 3 pubs, ate at one of them and eventually made our way to the rink....i've been in Winnipeg and been in a packed bar at 330, standing room only by 4 and watched it empty at 630....it's just such a buzz to get off work and have that facility right there....in all the times i've been to the CTC over 24 years, I've stopped once for a few pops in Kanata off terry fox, whatever they call that place....it's just not the same thing

 

[Do Make Say Think]

f*** giving public money to rich people who don't want to spend their own money just because they can extort elected officials.

 

[Stylizer1]

idk, it just seems to me that our current arena location fits perfectly in to our city's reputation as a boring place.....i remember about 10 years back being in Montreal for a huge Saturday night game against Boston....i was in the downtown core at 3 and the buzz was palpable....it was just electric....we hit 3 pubs, ate at one of them and eventually made our way to the rink....i've been in Winnipeg and been in a packed bar at 330, standing room only by 4 and watched it empty at 630....it's just such a buzz to get off work and have that facility right there....in all the times i've been to the CTC over 24 years, I've stopped once for a few pops in Kanata off terry fox, whatever they call that place....it's just not the same thing

When Melnyk bought the Sens didn't he get all of the land around the building too? Did he even try to develop and of that land? He wanted to build a soccer stadium, casino, and hotels. How was he going to pay for that?

 

[ottawah]

Public funding for an arena is essential. If funding isn’t found I might
have to sell the team to somebody who might move it.” —Mario Lemieux
[Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 2001]

#LemieuxOUT

Civic Pride

I think this illustrates why public money is also not a great idea, at least in paying for itself with benefits. If these arenas could possibly make money, even break even, then owners would not need public money. Of course they would want it, but I do not think anyone can question Lemieux on his commitment to Pitt and his personal lack of money (in terms of the least rich team owner). He just did not have the money to do this. If it made fiscal sense, he could have got the deal done.

We have already seen with Melnyk that even with free land he does not have the monetary resources to build a rink. So without significant public money, it just will not happen with Melnyk at the helm, unless he hits a real home run with one of his companies.

And I agree with the Civic pride part. But in Ottawa we have one big issue. The owner is near universally disliked (bordering on despised), especially by the local politicians. There is no sell to the city on "civic" pride.

 

[JD1]

When Melnyk bought the Sens didn't he get all of the land around the building too? Did he even try to develop and of that land? He wanted to build a soccer stadium, casino, and hotels. How was he going to pay for that?

back then he had a lot more net worth and IIRC the city turned down every proposal he submitted, including the soccer stadium and the casino

 

[JD1]

We have already seen with Melnyk that even with free land he does not have the monetary resources to build a rink. So without significant public money, it just will not happen with Melnyk at the helm, unless he hits a real home run with one of his companies.

there's not much that is correct about this statement....the land was not being given away for free and while there may have been monetary issues on Melnyk's end, the bigger more impactful issue appears to have been the arena deal not being particularly viable....unless you were expecting him to simply build a building out of the goodness of his heart

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

back then he had a lot more net worth and IIRC the city turned down every proposal he submitted, including the soccer stadium and the casino

Years of the same will be the death of this team.

Too much ask for so little in return.

 

[DueDiligence]

But how many of those billionaires who want to own an NHL team can own one in their hometown? Melnyk, back when he was a billionaire, would have much preferred to own one in Toronto but that clearly wasn't an option.

That's why I mentioned Lutke. He has lived in Ottawa 18 years; wife from Ottawa, 3 kids and for him right now buying the Sens would be "pocket change".

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

That's why I mentioned Lutke. He has lived in Ottawa 18 years; wife from Ottawa, 3 kids and for him right now buying the Sens would be "pocket change".

Smart businessmen don't waste money on losing causes.

 

[Masked]

That's why I mentioned Lutke. He has lived in Ottawa 18 years; wife from Ottawa, 3 kids and for him right now buying the Sens would be "pocket change".

Although much of his worth is probably tied up in Shopify stock, which he might not want to liquidate or borrow against. But other billionaires, who might not live in Ottawa, may very well want to own the Senators because owning a team where they live isn't possible.

 

[Emerica]

Smart businessmen don't waste money on losing causes.

Smart businessmen can see the bigger picture.

 

[DueDiligence]

Smart businessmen don't waste money on losing causes.

Smart and very rich business people have their hobbies as well. David Thompson ( worth $38 billion) was the money behind the Jets. Katz in Edmonton and Pegula in Buffalo are other examples of billionaires investing in "losing causes".

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Smart businessmen can see the bigger picture.

Maybe if we sign Tim Stützle, we can be assured some incoming Shopify dollars

 

[Stylizer1]

I think this illustrates why public money is also not a great idea, at least in paying for itself with benefits. If these arenas could possibly make money, even break even, then owners would not need public money. Of course they would want it, but I do not think anyone can question Lemieux on his commitment to Pitt and his personal lack of money (in terms of the least rich team owner). He just did not have the money to do this. If it made fiscal sense, he could have got the deal done.

We have already seen with Melnyk that even with free land he does not have the monetary resources to build a rink. So without significant public money, it just will not happen with Melnyk at the helm, unless he hits a real home run with one of his companies.

And I agree with the Civic pride part. But in Ottawa we have one big issue. The owner is near universally disliked (bordering on despised), especially by the local politicians. There is no sell to the city on "civic" pride.

Wasn't lemieux owed a lot of money from the Pens and the only way he would get it is if he became the owner?