Player Discussion Eric Staal Part II

[the halleJOKEL]

The offense is non-existent.

I don't get it. I watched E. Staal a lot these last few years. One of the strongest players on the boards and in the cycle in the league. What the **** happened?

But the thing mostly, is that we all knew what we were getting from E. Staal. Awesome at everything except scoring. We knew this was coming, why is everyone surprised?

he used to score a lot of his goals shooting off the rush. he would just skate past defenders and outmuscle them to get a quick wrister off that either went in or resulted in an easy tap in rebound for himself or linemates.

post-knee injury, he doesn't have the speed to do that anymore. there are way fewer complete pylon defensemen like there used to be which doesn't help at all either

rip

 

[Raspewtin]

he used to score a lot of his goals shooting off the rush. he would just skate past defenders and outmuscle them to get a quick wrister off that either went in or resulted in an easy tap in rebound for himself or linemates.

post-knee injury, he doesn't have the speed to do that anymore. there are way fewer complete pylon defensemen like there used to be which doesn't help at all either

rip

Oh I know that, no way was I expecting 60 point Eric Staal

But his ridic size and lower body strength are still there. What happened to those? He loses the puck so easily and is allergic to the boards.

 

[the halleJOKEL]

hmm not sure

he was still alright at that before he was traded from what i remember, not "chara can't take the puck off me along the boards" 09 playoffs good, but not noticeably awful. his possession stats were still outstanding all year.

our team's system is all about possession in the zone and cycling the puck to the points and crashing the net for rebounds

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

But his ridic size and lower body strength are still there. What happened to those?

He must not work out the way Martin St. Louis did.

 

[Inferno]

Surely you don't mean the Stalberg-Lindberg-Staal pairing, right?

Worked well? They had a few nice sustained shifts in the other teams zone. They also scored no points that entire time, and didn't really come close. Low-caliber shots and decent possession is far from working well.

It's like when people say Zuccarello and Brassard have chemistry. No they don't, they are two talented playmakers that happen to be on the same line. The last time this team had chemistry on offense was Jagr-Nylander-Straka.

It's sooo crazy how far out expectations have fallen for these guys.

total TOI of 37:56

GF/60 3.16
GA/60 0
GF% 100%
CF60 74.34
CF% 62.7%

They got mostly neutral zone starts with slightly more offensive zone starts than defensive zone starts.

To put that in perspective, who would you say is the Rangers best line? Maybe something like Stepan Zucc and Miller? for giggles?

Here are their totals...OBVIOUSLY its in a larger sample size.

total TOI of 60:57

GF/60 4.92
GA/60 4.92
GF% 50%
CF60 53.16
CF% 47.8%


What about something like Nash, Brassard, and Zucc? That line has played a lot together right? lots of offense there right?

total TOI of 351:25

GF/60 3.24
GA/60 2.39
GF% 57.6%
CF60 52.25
CF% 46.2%


So while again acknowledging that it was a small sample size, they did score goals, they had the puck way more than the opposition, and significantly more than the other lines ive put together here (at least using Corsi as the metric) and they didnt give up a single goal. again, super small sample size, but i never said it was a large sample size, i said in those few games, they looked terrific...these are the stats to bear them out. they did score goals they didnt give up goals, and they had the puck the entire time.

do you know how ludicrous a CF% of 62.7% is? particularly on the new york rangers? with boat anchors like girardi and staal on the blueline?

 

[True Blue]

He must not work out the way Martin St. Louis did.

Two trades that added nothing and just further depopulated the system.

 

[bathgate]

Two trades that added nothing and just further depopulated the system.

Two first rounders, two second rounders and Saarela. With the picks and prospect, retooling becomes easier. BTW, trading Yandle this year would have helped to offset these fiascos

 

[Edge]

The offense is non-existent.

I don't get it. I watched E. Staal a lot these last few years. One of the strongest players on the boards and in the cycle in the league. What the **** happened?

But the thing mostly, is that we all knew what we were getting from E. Staal. Awesome at everything except scoring. We knew this was coming, why is everyone surprised?

I think most people figured they weren't getting the 70 point version of Staal, but assumed even a 50-55 point version (like last season) would be a boost.

Unfortunately, it completely backfired and Staal either looks like a guy who needs a very specific system to put up some points, or whose offense is decreasing faster than expected.

 

[silverfish]

Two first rounders, two second rounders and Saarela. With the picks and prospect, retooling becomes easier. BTW, trading Yandle this year would have helped to offset these fiascos

Yep, and we'd be all enjoying our off-season watching the Flyers play the Penguins, and the Bruins play the Caps.

 

[Jersey Girl]

Yep, and we'd be all enjoying our off-season watching the Flyers play the Penguins, and the Bruins play the Caps.

Everyone knew all along these trades where we gave away the future for the present were short-term gain, long-term pain. It is what it is.

 

[Off Sides]

Yep, and we'd be all enjoying our off-season watching the Flyers play the Penguins, and the Bruins play the Caps.

Not sure I feel better that we get to watch the Rangers get trounced in the 1st round of the playoffs, and slowly over the next several years reach the bottom of their bell curve instead.

Seems like there could have been some happy medium there where they would still maybe make the playoffs and have somewhat of a future that did not include band-aiding together less than contending vet laden rosters in front of an aging goalie for the foreseeable future.

 

[Jersey Girl]

Not sure I feel better that we get to watch the Rangers get trounced in the 1st round of the playoffs, and slowly over the next several years reach the bottom of their bell curve instead.

Seems like there could have been some happy medium there where they would still maybe make the playoffs and have somewhat of a future that did not include band-aiding together less than contending vet laden rosters in front of an aging goalie for the foreseeable future.

Did you enjoy the run to the Stanley Cup finals two years ago?

 

[Off Sides]

Did you enjoy the run to the Stanley Cup finals two years ago?

Seems like a loaded question but,

Sure but even then I feel as if they would have done about the same had they just not traded for MSL. Last year similarly without Yandle. Longer back without Clowe, McCabe

 

[True Blue]

Two first rounders, two second rounders and Saarela. With the picks and prospect, retooling becomes easier. BTW, trading Yandle this year would have helped to offset these fiascos

Could not agree more

 

[silverfish]

You root for an organization actively trying to win every season... try and enjoy it

 

[Off Sides]

You root for an organization actively trying to win every season... try and enjoy it

I guess what I don't get, you like the numbers thing, the probability that adding Eric Staal, or even MSL, or even Yandle raises the probability that they will win a cup by how much?

It's pretty impossible to quantify so you kind of have to just take a guess, but say the series are all pretty close to 50/50 it's like a 6% probability you are going to win four 50/50 tosses in a row.

So even if these rentals changed the odds to like 52/48 it still basically the same probability.

But in my world these rentals really did not change the probability to even 52/48 for most of the series they were going to run into.

Even then after the addition this year they were still going to be the underdog to Washington and Pitt, and any team from out west, so it just did and does not make a ton of sense for them to be adding.

Makes even less sense when coaching upgrades Lindberg to E Staal instead of Lindberg to E Staal and Glass to Lindberg but the point remains, I don't think these rentals add much to a team who is still going to be the under dog or about even throughout the majority of the playoffs series they are going to have to play in.

If the team last year adds, I get it, they were winning the president trophy. Still I think they overpaid but in that case it makes some sense, they are probably the favorite headed into most series. An edge there maybe you win it more often. Guard against an injury derailing the whole thing.

This year, all the underlying numbers said they stank, there was obviously something wrong with the team and they still added.

 

[silverfish]

I guess what I don't get, you like the numbers thing, the probability that adding Eric Staal, or even MSL, or even Yandle raises the probability that they will win a cup by how much?

It's pretty impossible to quantify so you kind of have to just take a guess, but say the series are all pretty close to 50/50 it's like a 6% probability you are going to win four 50/50 tosses in a row.

So even if these rentals changed the odds to like 52/48 it still basically the same probability.

But in my world these rentals really did not change the probability to even 52/48 for most of the series they were going to run into.

Even then after the addition this year they were still going to be the underdog to Washington and Pitt, and any team from out west, so it just did and does not make a ton of sense for them to be adding.

Makes even less sense when coaching upgrades Lindberg to E Staal instead of Lindberg to E Staal and Glass to Lindberg but the point remains, I don't think these rentals add much to a team who is still going to be the under dog or about even throughout the majority of the playoffs series they are going to have to play in.

If the team last year adds, I get it, they were winning the president trophy. Still I think they overpaid but in that case it makes some sense, they are probably the favorite headed into most series. An edge there maybe you win it more often. Guard against an injury derailing the whole thing.

This year, all the underlying numbers said they stank, there was obviously something wrong with the team and they still added.

I have absolutely no idea how to respond to this post. I'm typing this so you don't think I'm ignoring it

EDIT - Well...

Yeah, the numbers were crap. The team wasn't great. They brought in a guy in Staal who had very good underlying numbers, and then AV proceeded to give him a carousel of **** wingers, this despite nailing the correct line combination (flanked by Lindberg and Stalberg) in Staal's third game in the lineup.

Staal's 2nd most common "icemate" in the regular season as a New York Ranger was Dan Boyle. A d-man. Not a forward.

I blame AV.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

hmm not sure

he was still alright at that before he was traded from what i remember, not "chara can't take the puck off me along the boards" 09 playoffs good, but not noticeably awful. his possession stats were still outstanding all year.

our team's system is all about possession in the zone and cycling the puck to the points and crashing the net for rebounds

The Rangers do not do this. Quite the opposite at this point haha

 

[Jersey Girl]

I guess what I don't get, you like the numbers thing, the probability that adding Eric Staal, or even MSL, or even Yandle raises the probability that they will win a cup by how much?

It's pretty impossible to quantify so you kind of have to just take a guess, but say the series are all pretty close to 50/50 it's like a 6% probability you are going to win four 50/50 tosses in a row.

So even if these rentals changed the odds to like 52/48 it still basically the same probability.

But in my world these rentals really did not change the probability to even 52/48 for most of the series they were going to run into.

Even then after the addition this year they were still going to be the underdog to Washington and Pitt, and any team from out west, so it just did and does not make a ton of sense for them to be adding.

Makes even less sense when coaching upgrades Lindberg to E Staal instead of Lindberg to E Staal and Glass to Lindberg but the point remains, I don't think these rentals add much to a team who is still going to be the under dog or about even throughout the majority of the playoffs series they are going to have to play in.

If the team last year adds, I get it, they were winning the president trophy. Still I think they overpaid but in that case it makes some sense, they are probably the favorite headed into most series. An edge there maybe you win it more often. Guard against an injury derailing the whole thing.

This year, all the underlying numbers said they stank, there was obviously something wrong with the team and they still added.

Just curious, at the time of the MSL/Yandle/Staal trades were you in the trade threads saying these trades were bad at the time? Or is this all in hindsight?

 

[Inferno]

I have absolutely no idea how to respond to this post. I'm typing this so you don't think I'm ignoring it

EDIT - Well...

Yeah, the numbers were crap. The team wasn't great. They brought in a guy in Staal who had very good underlying numbers, and then AV proceeded to give him a carousel of **** wingers, this despite nailing the correct line combination (flanked by Lindberg and Stalberg) in Staal's third game in the lineup.

Staal's 2nd most common "icemate" in the regular season as a New York Ranger was Dan Boyle. A d-man. Not a forward.

I blame AV.

that infograph is so interesting...it literally says...put these guys together and youre good to go:

Staaaaalberg with Boyle and Staal

What do we actually get?

Staal with Hayes and Fasth with Boyle and Yandle.

 

[Off Sides]

Just curious, at the time of the MSL/Yandle/Staal trades were you in the trade threads saying these trades were bad at the time? Or is this all in hindsight?

I'll look them up for you when I get a chance. Here is the first one I found

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=115537741&postcount=138

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

The offense is non-existent.

I don't get it. I watched E. Staal a lot these last few years. One of the strongest players on the boards and in the cycle in the league. What the **** happened?

But the thing mostly, is that we all knew what we were getting from E. Staal. Awesome at everything except scoring. We knew this was coming, why is everyone surprised?

I dont know.

But given this team's downward trajectory, maybe it's time to stop forking over assets for the corpses of formerly great players.

 

[mike14]

You root for an organization actively trying to win every season... try and enjoy it

We were 'trying to win' during the dark ages too, it wasnt that enjoyable...
The expectation of trying to win every season is a great message to fans, sponsors etc, but it's not actually realistic and you have to have some troughs to match the peaks. Good management teams will attempt to identify these troughs before they happen, not after. IMO the signs were there after the Tampa series loss that we might be going backwards a bit, even with winning the Presidents Trophy, and the teams play through most if this season reinforced that. Yet instead of identifying this and maybe trading Yandle and 1 or 2 others, we make a trade for Staal even though it seemed pretty clear that he wasn't going to be the difference between us actuvely trying to win

 

[trilobyte]

I am probably more forgiving than most when it comes to the addition of veteran players over the last few years. I always told myself it was in the context of the 'win now' mantra. BTW, I don't apologize for thinking that way.
However, I wasn't into the acquisition of E. Staal. I respect and like him but he was already slowing down. My point is simply that I think the Rangers front office thought that the Rangers roster would rejuvenate Eric; that he would put up a better performance simply because he would now be surrounded by better players. That has to be what they were thinking.
I can count the flashes of great play on one hand. Don't bother telling me about board battles, you damn well better get that with Eric Staal! We are talking about scoring, goals and assists. Not many flashes.
But, I am not surprised. He was already fading.

 

[bathgate]

Please go look it up. I was horrified by the three trades involving MSL, Yandle and Staal.We have given up much of our future for the next five years.Yandle is a horrible defenseman.E.Staal is over the hill.Four first round choices,two second round choices, Duclair and Saarela given away
Lundqvist,though a great goalie, may be on the decline.M.Staal, Girardi are on the decline.The hallmark of the team, defense is in deep trouble.The huge issue is the six choices noted above would have provided needed replacements.I am truly concerned that the dark ages will again be in our immediate future.