GWT: EPL - Matchweek 33

[JoVel]

I can't lie, seeing Chelsea players throw a fit over the penalty taker in a 4-0 was pretty hilarious.

 

[cgf]

In terms of pure performance VS minutes I'd argue he's there easily over some of those.

I think there's a good argument for that if you focus on the second half of the season, but for the season on the whole, he doesn't crack my top 10 either. Probably will be there next season though.

 

[Vasilevskiy]

In terms of pure performance VS minutes I'd argue he's there easily over some of those.

Easily over who?
All those mentioned are exceptional players as well, some of them playing at a super high level
Does not matter though, he's going to be a superstar barring misfortunes

 

[Evilo]

Easily over who?
All those mentioned are exceptional players as well, some of them playing at a super high level
Does not matter though, he's going to be a superstar barring misfortunes

Again I mentioned in terms of playing time.
If you expand his minutes stats wise, I'm pretty sure he's way better statistically than some of those.
Mind you I haven't checked it.

 

[robertmac43]

I can't lie, seeing Chelsea players throw a fit over the penalty taker in a 4-0 was pretty hilarious.

Chelsea is the gift that keeps on giving... lol

 

[cgf]

Again I mentioned in terms of playing time.
If you expand his minutes stats wise, I'm pretty sure he's way better statistically than some of those.
Mind you I haven't checked it.

We both know that's not how it works though. The extra workload drags down players' per36 & per100poss stats as well as their efficiency because the NBA season is ~20 games too long...and endurance is one of the big things Wemby still has to improve.

I honestly won't be surprised if he gets some All-NBA votes as a rookie and wouldn't argue with anyone putting him on their 3rd team, but top 10 is still a summer (or two) away IMO. The NBA just has a crazy amount of talent right now.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Just saw that Chelsea penalty footage. What the hell was that?!

 

[Evilo]

We both know that's not how it works though. The extra workload drags down players' per36 & per100poss stats as well as their efficiency because the NBA season is ~20 games too long...and endurance is one of the big things Wemby still has to improve.

I honestly won't be surprised if he gets some All-NBA votes as a rookie and wouldn't argue with anyone putting him on their 3rd team, but top 10 is still a summer (or two) away IMO. The NBA just has a crazy amount of talent right now.

You thought he had trouble with a heavier workload in the stretch?
I don't.

And I know most NBA fans don't value defense but he's easily the best defenseman of that group.

 

[bluesfan94]

You thought he had trouble with a heavier workload in the stretch?
I don't.

And I know most NBA fans don't value defense but he's easily the best defenseman of that group.

A heavier workload over a short run is different than a heavier workload over a ~75 game season.

 

[cgf]

A heavier workload over a short run is different than a heavier workload over a ~75 game season.

Pretty much this. 2000 minutes is a lot, but 2500+ minutes over that same time frame is more than just 25% more exhausting.

I won't be surprised if Wemby wins an MVP & DPOY while still on his rookie deal, but atm I think I have him in the 10-20 range.

 

[Evilo]

Pretty much this. 2000 minutes is a lot, but 2500+ minutes over that same time frame is more than just 25% more exhausting.

I won't be surprised if Wemby wins an MVP & DPOY while still on his rookie deal, but atm I think I have him in the 10-20 range.

So the best Dmn in the league and total threat on both sides, making 3 on 1 look like losing counters and scoring from anywhere is not a top 10 player because we don't know if his fatigue would kick in.

 

[cgf]

So the best Dmn in the league and total threat on both sides, making 3 on 1 look like losing counters and scoring from anywhere is not a top 10 player because we don't know if his fatigue would kick in.

And because he's not as good offensively (yet). He'll be the face of the NBA very soon if his body holds up, but soon isn't the same is already

If Wemby held a different passport and I suggested he could win an MVP & DPOY on his rookie deal, you'd be laughing at me for suggesting something so insanely unprecedented...but since he is French, that's not effusive enough for you. Never change evilo

 

[Evilo]

Erh what?
Where did I say Wemby should be MVP?
That's not moving the goalposts it's firing them to the other part of the world lol.
Please never change the lying in every argument. Always fun.

 

[hatterson]

Wembanyama is not the best defensive player in the league right now, come on. He's not even the best defensive big man.

 

[Jack Straw]

Wembanyama is not the best defensive player in the league right now, come on. He's not even the best defensive big man.

Yeah, that's quite a stretch. How that is voted on for DPOY is one thing but he will never be the defender that say, prime Kawhi was. He'll be an elite rim protector and defensively he'll be more in the Rudy Gobert mold. Personally I don't think that kind of defender should be DPOY but obviously people with actual votes think differently. Wemby will win that at some point, probably sooner rather than later.

 

[hatterson]

Yeah, that's quite a stretch. How that is voted on for DPOY is one thing but he will never be the defender that say, prime Kawhi was. He'll be an elite rim protector and defensively he'll be more in the Rudy Gobert mold. Personally I don't think that kind of defender should be DPOY but obviously people with actual votes think differently. Wemby will win that at some point, probably sooner rather than later.

Don't get me wrong, he certainly looks like he'll get there. Maybe even a DPOY next year, but he's not there now.

Just like being a top 10 player. He looks like he'll likely be there next year, but he wasn't top 10 in his rookie season

 

[cgf]

Wembanyama is not the best defensive player in the league right now, come on. He's not even the best defensive big man.

I dunno if he's already DPOY caliber, but I think he's already the best defensive big man...or at least he has been since they took the training wheels off. Brunson goes at guys like Gobert & Davis hard more often than not, but Wemby makes him pull up and explore his options.

Kid's just an unreal deterrent at the rim and his mobility lets him make insane plays that others just can't. I think Mitchell Robinson should've gotten more recognition in recent years for his ability to defend both parts of a PnR on his own or make plays like this:

...but Wemby makes that look like an every day play.

Yeah, that's quite a stretch. How that is voted on for DPOY is one thing but he will never be the defender that say, prime Kawhi was. He'll be an elite rim protector and defensively he'll be more in the Rudy Gobert mold. Personally I don't think that kind of defender should be DPOY but obviously people with actual votes think differently. Wemby will win that at some point, probably sooner rather than later.

Wemby's so insanely special he might be both Kawhi & Rudy in his prime.

 

[Evilo]

Wembanyama is not the best defensive player in the league right now, come on. He's not even the best defensive big man.

No whom?
He torches Gobert in every defensive stat. And overall impression.

 

[cgf]

Erh what?
Where did I say Wemby should be MVP?
That's not moving the goalposts it's firing them to the other part of the world lol.
Please never change the lying in every argument. Always fun.

You didn't. I said I think that Wemby can win an MVP before his rookie contract expires...next three seasons...but that wasn't enough Wemby love for you.

And accusing others of lying is a little bit rich, don't you think? ;-)

 

[Evilo]

You didn't. I said I think that Wemby can win an MVP before his rookie contract expires...next three seasons...but that wasn't enough Wemby love for you.

And accusing others of lying is a little bit rich, don't you think? ;-)

Not really.
I argued Wemby was a top 10 player and you accused me of nationalistic bias, which has nothing to do with the point obviously, something good Ole Trumpists all over the globe do so well : deflect the argument on another to avoid the entire argument. Well known rhetoric trick.
I never argued he was MVP nor that he would win it in his rookie deal.
I argued he was shielded which prevented him from being named with the list given above but IMO he's already better than a couple of them.
Stats per minute show it so you argued that he'd feel tired (based on opinion).
I then pointed out he's a way better defensive presence than almost all of not all of those guys. Which does count as an element of rating IMO.

Gobert might win the DPOY but only a fool can't see Wemby is already having much more of a defensive impact. Heck 3 guys alone on him and they turn down the shot. That's unheard of. And doesn't even show on the stat sheet.

 

[cgf]

Not really.
I argued Wemby was a top 10 player and you accused me of nationalistic bias, which has nothing to do with the point obviously, something good Ole Trumpists all over the globe do so well : deflect the argument on another to avoid the entire argument. Well known rhetoric trick.
I never argued he was MVP nor that he would win it in his rookie deal.
I argued he was shielded which prevented him from being named with the list given above but IMO he's already better than a couple of them.
Stats per minute show it so you argued that he'd feel tired (based on opinion).
I then pointed out he's a way better defensive presence than almost all of not all of those guys. Which does count as an element of rating IMO.

Gobert might win the DPOY but only a fool can't see Wemby is already having much more of a defensive impact. Heck 3 guys alone on him and they turn down the shot. That's unheard of. And doesn't even show on the stat sheet.

You really don't see the irony here, do you? You're such a gem

 

[hatterson]

No whom?
He torches Gobert in every defensive stat. And overall impression.

Defensive win shares and defensive performance rating favor Gobert

I dunno if he's already DPOY caliber, but I think he's already the best defensive big man...or at least he has been since they took the training wheels off. Brunson goes at guys like Gobert & Davis hard more often than not, but Wemby makes him pull up and explore his options.

And yet opponents shoot significantly lower when Gobert is defending them as opposed to when Wemby is despite Wemby getting his hands on more balls.

Wemby has insane talent and he can make some insane flashy plays, but he still struggles with defensive positioning like all young players do. It takes time against the top level of competition to learn that. I have no doubt he'll get there, but he's not there yet.

 

[Peen]

I don’t really want to touch this wemby discussion

Obviously is already a dominant two way player.

But I’m not going to start ranking him relative to those top eight or so players until you see how he reacts in playoff games when things are tighter and he’s playing against guys who’ve been there and done that. And frankly, I think getting worked up about it makes no sense

It’s just a totally different game when teams are only playing 7-8 guys and trying to get the same switch over and over the last eight minutes - how does Wemby make those reads against elite teams in the playoffs? Odds are he kills it. I would bet he would. But you don’t know for sure until you’ve been able to see it and evaluate it.

Also the Gobert Utah stuff was always dumb when you account for how their defensive system worked and their personnel. I’m sure if those Jazz teams had current OG and Derrick White to be POA defenders, Gobert would be talked about differently

 

[cgf]

Defensive win shares and defensive performance rating favor Gobert


And yet opponents shoot significantly lower when Gobert is defending them as opposed to when Wemby is despite Wemby getting his hands on more balls.

Wemby has insane talent and he can make some insane flashy plays, but he still struggles with defensive positioning like all young players do. It takes time against the top level of competition to learn that. I have no doubt he'll get there, but he's not there yet.

Rim protection stats are weird, Hartenstein's a really awesome defender, but he's not the rim protector/deterrent that Robinson, Gobert, or Wemby are...and yet the #s say he's the best or one of the best, ya know?

Wemby certainly has more to learn and work to do on his body, but the advanced metrics are already ridiculous:

Wemby: +3.1 Def-EPM, +2.39 Def-DARKO, +2.97 D-LEBRON
Rudy: +2.2 Def-EPM, +3.87 Def-DARKO, +2.86 D-LEBRON
Davis: +1.9 Def-EPM, +2.30 Def-DARKO, +2.65 D-LEBRON

I put more stock in EPM & DARKO than LEBRON in general, but it's a lot better with bigs than perimeter guys.

 

[Evilo]

You really don't see the irony here, do you? You're such a gem

Indeed, it's quite hilarious how you have zero understanding of your own words.