Player Discussion Elias Pettersson | Quinn Hughes - Contract Discussion Thread

[StreetHawk]

Is your point that GMs don't do it because they might get blacklisted? I am not sure if that happens, I think it's more they don't want to damage their relationship with the GM on the receiving end. If you are Chris Drury, are you going to really worry about having damaged relationship with Benning? Benning is one of the worst GMs in the league and won't land another GM job or AGM job in the league. Hell if he makes that offer sheet and Benning can't match because of the bad cap, that will be the nail in Benning's coffin.

Out of all of the 2000 OS the only one that was a legit chance of happening was the SJ one to Hammer due to the constraints of the Hawks. Think Niemi needed a new deal around the same time as well and was traded to SJ. The others seemed more like a desperate move for the GM who was out within a short period of time afterwards.

I doubt drury wants one of his first moves to be a rfa setting OS.

history tells us this is an unlikely move. Teams should have been using the TB cap crunch last off season to pull away sergachev or cirelli but didn’t make an offer.

 

[arttk]

"So, Elias, why are you signing an extension for $9M x 4 when you could keep signing a $13M QO each year or cash in with immediate UFA status if they don't give you a QO?"

There is no way it would stand up. Not with Bettman, not with an arbitrator.

Well you can say because the team can’t compete with Petey taking up N% of the cap, especially with the figure being so damn high. It’s not the first time players take “less” to help the team win. It’s not that out of the ordinary. It’s not the first time a player take less than their QO.

 

[arttk]

Out of all of the 2000 OS the only one that was a legit chance of happening was the SJ one to Hammer due to the constraints of the Hawks. Think Niemi needed a new deal around the same time as well and was traded to SJ. The others seemed more like a desperate move for the GM who was out within a short period of time afterwards.

I doubt drury wants one of his first moves to be a rfa setting OS.

history tells us this is an unlikely move. Teams should have been using the TB cap crunch last off season to pull away sergachev or cirelli but didn’t make an offer.

It is unlikely but not impossible, that was my point. GMs are crazy conservative in this league and most of the offersheets do reflect their conservatism.

 

[Blue and Green]

Well you can say because the team can’t compete with Petey taking up N% of the cap, especially with the figure being so damn high. It’s not the first time players take “less” to help the team win. It’s not that out of the ordinary. It’s not the first time a player take less than their QO.

Would never pass the reasonable standards sniff test of contract law, for a young star player to accept a massive one-year offer sheet and then suddenly take a 30% pay cut for the next four seasons instead of cashing in huge with the ongoing QO's or via UFA. "Oh, well, because the team can't afford this every year" isn't an excuse for cap circumvention. The CBA is abundantly clear that side deals outside of the officially offered contract are not permissible and I guarantee that behaviour to the contrary would be especially punished when it involved the rights of a star young player who is the property of another team being poached via a circumventing offer sheet.

 

[StreetHawk]

It is unlikely but not impossible, that was my point. GMs are crazy conservative in this league and most of the offersheets do reflect their conservatism.

Anything is possible. But I prefer to deal with realistic options.

TB was crunched for space yet no gm OS their guys.
Lowe was desperate to get someone big to sign in Edm.
Gillis it was his first year as the offer was in 2008 and the draft pick comp would have been in 2009. He also left himself open with Bernier for a retaliation OS from STL.

holmgren went big due to Nashville’s tight internal budget. For the Preds future they had to match it. Same with Carolina. Kesler no brainer to match for a 2nd.

you have to really offer a premium to convince the other gm to back off.
GMs in a cap world can’t afford to Pay premium contracts.

 

[arttk]

Anything is possible. But I prefer to deal with realistic options.

TB was crunched for space yet no gm OS their guys.
Lowe was desperate to get someone big to sign in Edm.
Gillis it was his first year as the offer was in 2008 and the draft pick comp would have been in 2009. He also left himself open with Bernier for a retaliation OS from STL.

holmgren went big due to Nashville’s tight internal budget. For the Preds future they had to match it. Same with Carolina. Kesler no brainer to match for a 2nd.

you have to really offer a premium to convince the other gm to back off.
GMs in a cap world can’t afford to Pay premium contracts.

if you want realistic scenario then I can totally see a Aho type offer sheet thrown at Petey and we would struggle to match it. Tampa don’t get offersheet because everyone knows all the players on their roster are players that other teams want and they can create cap space by trading one away. It doesn’t take a genius to look at the Canucks cap and the players we have to conclude that not only do we not have cap, majority of the players we have are not tradable and it’s extremely difficult to create space.
Let’s put it this way, if Petey gets a 9.5M x3 and we match that and re-sign Hughes. We will end up with like 0 cap to fill out the rest of the roster that is missing a couple of D and F. So at that not so ridiculous number, there is a reasonable probability that we won’t match because we can’t.

 

[Hit the post]

if you want realistic scenario then I can totally see a Aho type offer sheet thrown at Petey and we would struggle to match it. Tampa don’t get offersheet because everyone knows all the players on their roster are players that other teams want and they can create cap space by trading one away. It doesn’t take a genius to look at the Canucks cap and the players we have to conclude that not only do we not have cap, majority of the players we have are not tradable and it’s extremely difficult to create space.
Let’s put it this way, if Petey gets a 9.5M x3 and we match that and re-sign Hughes. We will end up with like 0 cap to fill out the rest of the roster that is missing a couple of D and F. So at that not so ridiculous number, there is a reasonable probability that we won’t match because we can’t.

EP has to sign it though. Might be another reason why the Sedins were brought aboard.

 

[arttk]

EP has to sign it though. Might be another reason why the Sedins were brought aboard.

Well yeah of course. But NYR isn’t some unattractive place to be. The team would be stacked with Petey and being paid a boat load of money to live in Manhattan is uhh nice.

 

[bossram]

EP has to sign it though. Might be another reason why the Sedins were brought aboard.

Petey switched his agency to CAA - the biggest in hockey. Those guys get players paid. Petey's not in it to take a discount, and his agents surely will tell him not to.

 

[Peter10]

Anything is possible. But I prefer to deal with realistic options.

TB was crunched for space yet no gm OS their guys.
Lowe was desperate to get someone big to sign in Edm.
Gillis it was his first year as the offer was in 2008 and the draft pick comp would have been in 2009. He also left himself open with Bernier for a retaliation OS from STL.

holmgren went big due to Nashville’s tight internal budget. For the Preds future they had to match it. Same with Carolina. Kesler no brainer to match for a 2nd.

you have to really offer a premium to convince the other gm to back off.
GMs in a cap world can’t afford to Pay premium contracts.

The thing is, we don't know if anyone offersheeted the Tampa guys. Unless they sign it, it doesn't really become public.

 

[F A N]

if you want realistic scenario then I can totally see a Aho type offer sheet thrown at Petey and we would struggle to match it. Tampa don’t get offersheet because everyone knows all the players on their roster are players that other teams want and they can create cap space by trading one away. It doesn’t take a genius to look at the Canucks cap and the players we have to conclude that not only do we not have cap, majority of the players we have are not tradable and it’s extremely difficult to create space.
Let’s put it this way, if Petey gets a 9.5M x3 and we match that and re-sign Hughes. We will end up with like 0 cap to fill out the rest of the roster that is missing a couple of D and F. So at that not so ridiculous number, there is a reasonable probability that we won’t match because we can’t.

There's a difference between not having cap space to re-sign players and not having the cap space to improve the team. The Canucks belong to the latter not former.

The Canucks have a slew of free agents, especially on D where they literally only have 3 players signed.

They could match any offer sheet to Petey, buyout Holtby, bridge Hughes, don't bring Edler back, try and clear some cap space, and fill the rest of the openings with guys making the near minimum, especially on D. Obviously that's not something the Canucks want to to do but there's definitely an ability to do it.

 

[arttk]

There's a difference between not having cap space to re-sign players and not having the cap space to improve the team. The Canucks belong to the latter not former.

The Canucks have a slew of free agents, especially on D where they literally only have 3 players signed.

They could match any offer sheet to Petey, buyout Holtby, bridge Hughes, don't bring Edler back, try and clear some cap space, and fill the rest of the openings with guys making the near minimum, especially on D. Obviously that's not something the Canucks want to to do but there's definitely an ability to do it.

I mean we are kinda are close to that area. When I threw out the 13M number, yeah that is crazy. Less crazy is like 9M, would 10M or 10.5M be crazy? Not so sure, it’s high but not that bad.
Bridging Hughes will still coat like 6M I think. So a 9.5 offersheet and 6M Hughes will put us over the cap already. 10.5 and we will need to buyout Virtanen, Holtby to get under and have some money to sign min wage guys to ice a team. Yes the team will not be able to improve , normally you would see teams suck it up but we are talking about Benning who NEEDS to make the playoffs to save his own ass.

also depends on the timing too.. if Benning doesn’t get Petey signed before July 1st and actually goes out and do some dumbass shopping and make it so that he has to get Hughes and Petey signed for 15M max, then you really could see a scenario where we can’t match.

 

[Orr4Norris]

I mean we are kinda are close to that area. When I threw out the 13M number, yeah that is crazy. Less crazy is like 9M, would 10M or 10.5M be crazy? Not so sure, it’s high but not that bad.
Bridging Hughes will still coat like 6M I think. So a 9.5 offersheet and 6M Hughes will put us over the cap already. 10.5 and we will need to buyout Virtanen, Holtby to get under and have some money to sign min wage guys to ice a team. Yes the team will not be able to improve , normally you would see teams suck it up but we are talking about Benning who NEEDS to make the playoffs to save his own ass.

also depends on the timing too.. if Benning doesn’t get Petey signed before July 1st and actually goes out and do some dumbass shopping and make it so that he has to get Hughes and Petey signed for 15M max, then you really could see a scenario where we can’t match.

There is no scenario where we *cannot* match. They may decide to take the picks but it will be a decision. There is a lot of tradable money. If Petey thinks he is worth 13 mil, then he better be prepared to carry a line like McDavid does. Cause BB or Miller would likely be the ones traded to make room.

 

[F A N]

I mean we are kinda are close to that area. When I threw out the 13M number, yeah that is crazy. Less crazy is like 9M, would 10M or 10.5M be crazy? Not so sure, it’s high but not that bad.
Bridging Hughes will still coat like 6M I think. So a 9.5 offersheet and 6M Hughes will put us over the cap already. 10.5 and we will need to buyout Virtanen, Holtby to get under and have some money to sign min wage guys to ice a team. Yes the team will not be able to improve , normally you would see teams suck it up but we are talking about Benning who NEEDS to make the playoffs to save his own ass.

also depends on the timing too.. if Benning doesn’t get Petey signed before July 1st and actually goes out and do some dumbass shopping and make it so that he has to get Hughes and Petey signed for 15M max, then you really could see a scenario where we can’t match.

The prevailing wisdom seems to be that teams don't bother with offer sheets unless there's a good chance of getting the player. So once you start lowering the AAV of the offer sheet to the under $11M range not only are you changing the compensations structure you are also making Petey's contract more palatable.

So if a team is willing to make Petey the highest paid player in the NHL then the Canucks have to think about whether it's worth matching even if they can. Is Petey worth $13M a year? No. Is he worth $12M a year? No. At $9.5M especially if it's a 6+ year deal the Canucks would probably be happy to match and move on.

Again, there's a difference between not having cap space to re-sign players and not having the cap space to improve the team. Bridging Hughes doesn't have to cost $6M. Worse case scenario they bridge Hughes for a year with or without a promise to sign him to a long term contract next year.

But yes, the priority should be to extend Petey and gain some cap certainty.

 

[bbud]

There's a difference between not having cap space to re-sign players and not having the cap space to improve the team. The Canucks belong to the latter not former.

The Canucks have a slew of free agents, especially on D where they literally only have 3 players signed.

They could match any offer sheet to Petey, buyout Holtby, bridge Hughes, don't bring Edler back, try and clear some cap space, and fill the rest of the openings with guys making the near minimum, especially on D. Obviously that's not something the Canucks want to to do but there's definitely an ability to do it.

I dont pay much attention to terms but i do believe many of the contracts holding cap are over in next 2 seasons should probably look ).
That said there should be room to keep core its diligence signing smart deals to fill roles that will make the difference and thats a common issue for probably 3/4 of the league.

 

[arttk]

There is no scenario where we *cannot* match. They may decide to take the picks but it will be a decision. There is a lot of tradable money. If Petey thinks he is worth 13 mil, then he better be prepared to carry a line like McDavid does. Cause BB or Miller would likely be the ones traded to make room.

That’s true, there is no number that we literally cannot accept, unless they leave Petey’s contract as the last piece and they cannot clear room within a week to match it since they are so tight.

 

[arttk]

You are right about the picks. But that's a huge gamble that I don't see the Rangers making. There's certainly a lot of "potential" on that roster but the 1st line C and 2nd C you are referring to are pending UFAs. Fox will need a new contract. Basically, after next season, the Rangers will have cap space but they will also need players to use that cap space on if they aren't bringing back guys.

11.6M+ for Panarin, $6.5M for Kreider, ~$11M+ for Petey and Zibanejad ain't accepting a home town discount.

I think to do something like this they will need to extend Zinbanejad and Fox first (they can after “july 1st”) and see if the Canucks stalls on the talks with Petey and then burn away cap on other UFAs.
But it is a long shot but I think something bold like this could take the Rangers to like contender status.

 

[Sinistril]

There is no scenario where we *cannot* match. They may decide to take the picks but it will be a decision. There is a lot of tradable money. If Petey thinks he is worth 13 mil, then he better be prepared to carry a line like McDavid does. Cause BB or Miller would likely be the ones traded to make room.

Miller or BB would not be traded because the Canucks do not match. They take the 1st round picks, flip a couple for a top center and laugh

 

[theguardianII]

Isn't there 8 other threads that deal with contracts? And at least 4 that have either Petersson or Hughes?

 

[rypper]

 

[Ita]

Makar and Heiskanen are currently much better players than Hughes. Makar is on another tier...

Tier:
Makar


Heiskanen

Hughes

It would be a pretty terrible contact if Hughes get as much money as them. I am not even sure he is as good as Chabot given his defensive warts.
Not saying Hughes won't improve but right now he doesn't deserve getting paid the same as Makar and Heiskanen.

 

[Luck 6]

I’d rather bridge these guys for 3 years, then sign them for 8 year deals. Then their deals expire around age 32 instead of 28/29.

 

[rypper]

I think Pettersson is on the verge of blowing up, so I want to get him locked up to term right now. I think he's a healthy year away from a Barzal rookie season type numbers.

Rather get him at say 8x8 now then 10-12 x8 in 3 years from now.

(But that being said I don't think the team can afford that. I think both get bridge deals.)

 

[Nucker101]

I think Pettersson is on the verge of blowing up, so I want to get him locked up to term right now. I think he's a healthy year away from a Barzal rookie season type numbers.

Rather get him at say 8x8 now then 10-12 x8 in 3 years from now.

(But that being said I don't think the team can afford that. I think both get bridge deals.)

This

 

[StreetHawk]

I think Pettersson is on the verge of blowing up, so I want to get him locked up to term right now. I think he's a healthy year away from a Barzal rookie season type numbers.

Rather get him at say 8x8 now then 10-12 x8 in 3 years from now.

(But that being said I don't think the team can afford that. I think both get bridge deals.)

You are also making the assumption that he wants to do term and in a sense not confident in his ability to break out in a bridge deal. 8x8 would net him just $3 mill more than a Barzal 3 year bridge term so your numbers are too low anyways.

ideal for a player is term of 5/6 years. Then max term to get those age 34-36 years on contract 3 rather than have to go to market at age 33.

I think ideal for Petey’s POV is getting the Aho deal at $8.45 per for 5 then he’s ufa at age 27 going on 28. Able to sign til he’s 35 going on 36.