Eastside Hockey Manager - Part VIII

[MikeK]

Glad your happy.

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

how do you kno they regens

My save is in 2038

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

Glad your happy.

Well, I’m just confused here. Your saying that EHM does a terrible job producing prospects in the future, but are you playing lengthy saves??

I’m just showing what I’m experiencing, would love to see if anyone else experienced prospect growth like me?

 

[MikeK]

Well, I’m just confused here. Your saying that EHM does a terrible job producing prospects in the future, but are you playing lengthy saves??

I’m just showing what I’m experiencing, would love to see if anyone else experienced prospect growth like me?

I don't save screen caps or saves of my careers in hopes that I can show them as references in the future so I can't show you anything. All I know is that from my experience playing without the prospect generator the game's default DB has been terrible creating prospects. Every draft there may be a hand full of future NHLer's but the vast majority of prospects, especially in the first round, are busts. It only gets worse the longer the career. I'm not the only one either, I have seen and been apart of more than a few conversations about this exact complaint with many other players. I imagine it's why the generator was created in the first place.

I've been playing this game for close to 15 years. I barely see any difference between then and now when it comes to prospect generation in later years when using the default DB. I play long careers. I usually start a new career at the start of the NHL season and it lasts me up until summer when I stop playing. On avg I'd say my careers are 30+ yrs long.

I didn't quote you because I wasn't interested in a debate or discussion about the topic. I've played long enough to where my mind is made up about it. I play my games with the prospect generator now so I really don't care about what the default DB does or doesn't do. I thought I was being polite by at least acknowledging you had quoted me.

 

[WeThreeKings]

The game itself has a period of dark ages.

You start a save and there a few good drafts because of the input prospects from IRL (like Lafreneire and Wright)

Once those kids are gone. Nothing gets generated by the game. Especially goalies. Until all the star players retire and Regen. Then you have a couple years of golden drafts before the same dark age happens again.

EHM 07 was better balanced because there were more stars at retirement age when you started your career so they regenned consistently through the years.

EHM 07 also did a better job of creating goalies.

 

[ImActuallyAnOtter]

The game itself has a period of dark ages.

You start a save and there a few good drafts because of the input prospects from IRL (like Lafreneire and Wright)

Once those kids are gone. Nothing gets generated by the game. Especially goalies. Until all the star players retire and Regen. Then you have a couple years of golden drafts before the same dark age happens again.

EHM 07 was better balanced because there were more stars at retirement age when you started your career so they regenned consistently through the years.

EHM 07 also did a better job of creating goalies.

This is exactly why I made the prospect generator. =]

 

[Nino33]

Testing has not supported some of the views being expressed.
I can understand not being interested in a debate or discussion about the topic; I too have tired of it

If anyone is interested, here's the most recent testing results

• testing data - "draft classes" (by YOB) - EHM The Blue Line
• testing data - database CA levels/distribution - EHM The Blue Line
• testing data - NHL forwards Attributes 2018/2050 - EHM The Blue Line
• testing data - Forwards (Player Roles & Attributes) - Page 3 - EHM The Blue Line

I've been doing such testing for close to a decade now


P.S. If I was asked "why are many people saying future players are so bad?" I think it's the game using the full range on many Attributes (when human researchers don't) that's having the biggest impact on people's perceptions

I passed feedback and the links above on to Riz; we'll see what the next update brings when it comes

 

[Beauterham]

@xECK29x to start, I just to emphasize I really admire the work you, and your team, put into these databases. It really keeps the game fun for me, so thank you!

Now a question: usually before I start a new save (mostly with the Blues), I 'fix a few mistakes' in the database. We're mostly talking about player roles, attributes, PA, etc. For example: Nikita Alexandrov has the player role of goal-scoring forward, but IMO should be a two-way forward. I'm not looking for a fulltime database editor-job, but is there a place where we can pass on these kind of small changes now and then?

 

[Nino33]

If I was asked "why are many people saying future players are so bad?" I think it's the game using the full range on many Attributes (when human researchers don't) that's having the biggest impact on people's perceptions

Here's some examples of the Attribute range differences from the TBL database testing (looking at the top 372 NHL forwards by CA)

• at startup the range for Work Rate is 9-20, and thirty years later the AI range is 2-20
• at startup the range for Determination is 9-20, and thirty years later the AI range is 1-20
• at startup the range for Anticipation is 7-20, and thirty years later the AI range is 1-20
• other Attributes where the human researcher never went below 6 or 7, and the AI uses the full range (as low as a 1)...Loyalty, Pressure, Bravery, Flair, Important Matches, Pass Tendency and Vision

From this thread testing data - database CA levels/distribution - EHM The Blue Line

 

[WeThreeKings]

This is exactly why I made the prospect generator. =]

Yeah, it just needs more tweaking. Hoping to see how this one works out.

 

[Nino33]

PROSPECT GENERATOR V5.5 CHANGELIST -- huge thanks to @ImActuallyAnOtter:

OVERALL CHANGES:
- Reduced the number of players generated to better control database size. Previously 500 players per draft were created for 100 years, plus ~1,000 "sons" - Total ~51,000 players . Now it is 500 players forgot the first 20 years and 128 players for the subsequent 100 years, plus ~1,000 "sons". Total ~25,000 players. Will make for faster databases.
- Changed nation generation to better match current player distribution (more big countries, less small countries)

PLAYER GENERATION:
- Top end player generation is now more diverse. Previously I allowed -10 and -15 players to only generate 3-5 different roles within their position, that has been expanded and updated.
- Players can now have 2nd nationalities, be born in different countries, have ethnic family names etc.
- Increased the current ability of generated players across the board to compensate for EHM's lack of prospect development in pre-draft years.
- Reduced the potential ability of generated players across the board to reduce the likelihood of a situation where too many players are top liners.
- Changed reputation generation so that players generate with lower reputations than before, this works with the CA raise above so that players are more likely to join clubs, and initial testing is showing that the likelihood of American players sitting a year because they don't get signed by colleges is reducing (they tend to sign with AA junior clubs in Canada instead).
- Changed positional generation a bit, removed the ability for players to generate as both defenders and forwards.
- Ramped down the average consistency level generated to make it an average of 10.2 (was 11.1 before), but put in protection for all goalies, and for -10 and -15 players so it doesn't drop lower than 8 for those guys.
- Ramped down the average important matches level generated to make it an average of 10.2 (was 11.1 before), but put in protection for -10 and -15 players so it doesn't drop lower than 9 for those guys.
- Changed pass tendency for some roles for more diverse player generation
- Changed average injury proneness generation so players are more likely to get injured (average was around 7 before, now it's 10) - no protection for anyone
- Changed average natural fitness generation so players will degrade younger (average was around 13 before, now it's 10) - no protection for anyone
- Modified acceleration and speed generation so that players that generate at 15 yo or more (basically, the prospects in the first three drafts) are better generated.
- Further reduced potential ability generation as skaters were still getting too good
- increased goalie potential ability generation as good goalies were not frequent enough
- Generated 360 moderate ca / variable pa non-players between the ages of 25 & 40 to fix the long-term game staff issue better
- Reduced hidden stats generation in a way that the average hidden stats are lower, but generally don’t drop below 7. Added minimum of 9 for all -15 or higher prospects (3-4 skaters & 2-3 goalies per calendar year)
- Added a hard limit of 15 for most “growable” stats to stop op youth generation.
- Reduced top end ca generation as well to compensate for the hard limit above

Thanks so much for sharing these details!


It seems to me some of these adjustments are an attempt to address the issue I'm talking about here...

If I was asked "why are many people saying future players are so bad?" I think it's the game using the full range on many Attributes (when human researchers don't) that's having the biggest impact on people's perceptions

What an amazing tool! Very impressive!
Thanks so much for your efforts ImActuallyAnOtter

As @Nino33 said before, adding players to the starting configuration will allow for more creativity with the PA’s and more ‘star’ players will develop over time. (CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH)

...(Like adding young players in the starting config)

This is exactly what the Prospect Generator does! And as you can see in the changelist above, the Prospect Generator deals with far more than just PA!

The most recent testing (2018-19 databases) used the TBL database (with and without additional players added) & the ECK database with the (old version of the) Prospect Generator.

 

[xECK29x]

@xECK29x to start, I just to emphasize I really admire the work you, and your team, put into these databases. It really keeps the game fun for me, so thank you!

Now a question: usually before I start a new save (mostly with the Blues), I 'fix a few mistakes' in the database. We're mostly talking about player roles, attributes, PA, etc. For example: Nikita Alexandrov has the player role of goal-scoring forward, but IMO should be a two-way forward. I'm not looking for a fulltime database editor-job, but is there a place where we can pass on these kind of small changes now and then?

I love getting fan feedback like this and I’m happy to incorporate it, feel free to PM me here and add me on Steam. We also have a Discord channel where most of the researchers collaborate it not everyone is there.

 

[Bieronymus Trotz]

I love getting fan feedback like this and I’m happy to incorporate it, feel free to PM me here and add me on Steam. We also have a Discord channel where most of the researchers collaborate it not everyone is there.

From glancing at the roster and just looking at the skating attributes (which seem like the most straightforward to judge), it looks like the Capitals' players need some work. For example, Vrana/Jensen/Stephenson/Fehervary, the four fastest skaters besides Hagelin who have played this year, have 14/15/12/10 speed, respectively. Backstrom, who's quite a bit slower than any of them, has 14 acc/14 speed.

 

[Beauterham]

I love getting fan feedback like this and I’m happy to incorporate it, feel free to PM me here and add me on Steam. We also have a Discord channel where most of the researchers collaborate it not everyone is there.

Great!

Made a list and send it to you.

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

Testing has not supported some of the views being expressed.
I can understand not being interested in a debate or discussion about the topic; I too have tired of it

P.S. If I was asked "why are many people saying future players are so bad?" I think it's the game using the full range on many Attributes (when human researchers don't) that's having the biggest impact on people's perceptions

I passed feedback and the links above on to Riz; we'll see what the next update brings when it comes

As always Nino, you are the master when it comes to uncovering all the details!

I did not mean to come across as hasty or upset, (but as always) it’s just the data does not support the claim that star players don’t appear later on. The pictures that I uploaded do show proof that players do come along with time.

I will have to try this Prospect Generator a go with the newest database. Will have to see how it goes with 10+ years.

@xECK29x - so is the starting DB smaller now? Or can I still max it out? And is the prospect generator something programmed in already? Or do we have to sideload it with the game?

 

[xECK29x]

@xECK29x - so is the starting DB smaller now? Or can I still max it out? And is the prospect generator something programmed in already? Or do we have to sideload it with the game?

The starting DB is smaller then in past releases, and the prospects are already seeded in, no need to do anything else.

By maxing it out, do you mean using Full size DB or all leagues selected or something else?

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

The starting DB is smaller then in past releases, and the prospects are already seeded in, no need to do anything else.

By maxing it out, do you mean using Full size DB or all leagues selected or something else?

I usually play with Full DB + Extra junior players + extra national team pool players. Bigger the better for me lol.

 

[xECK29x]

I usually play with Full DB + Extra junior players + extra national team pool players. Bigger the better for me lol.

I mean you can if you want, I just wouldn’t enable all leagues

 

[Green Snow Storm]

I mean you can if you want, I just wouldn’t enable all leagues

Just wanted to thank you for you work. Amazing stuff from you and the people who contribute. I'm sure you've been over this a million times, but what starting settings do you recommend when it comes to league and database size?

 

[xECK29x]

Just wanted to thank you for you work. Amazing stuff from you and the people who contribute. I'm sure you've been over this a million times, but what starting settings do you recommend when it comes to league and database size?

For Pivot:

For TBL because it does not have the extra prospects you can do the same here but I would uncheck 'Disable All Extra Staff' and click 'Add Extra Junior Players' and 'Add Players to National Team Pools'.

For either DB: Adding 'Key Staff' is optional but recommended if you are starting your GM career on a lower-level or non-major junior club as it will make sure you have a Chairman, assistant GM, at least one scout and physio to start.

 

[filip85]

For Pivot:

View attachment 264285

For TBL because it does not have the extra prospects you can do the same here but I would uncheck 'Disable All Extra Staff' and click 'Add Extra Junior Players' and 'Add Players to National Team Pools'.

For either DB: Adding 'Key Staff' is optional but recommended if you are starting your GM career on a lower-level or non-major junior club as it will make sure you have a Chairman, assistant GM, at least one scout and physio to start.

Aren't Pivot and TBL rosters now "one body" if I understood correctly ?!

 

[xECK29x]

Aren't Pivot and TBL rosters now "one body" if I understood correctly ?!

As of this exact release they are very close, Pivot has a higher NHL salary cap and the added prospects.

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

As of this exact release they are very close, Pivot has a higher NHL salary cap and the added prospects.

Loving the new TBL update so far. Been a while since i played with an updated DB..

 

[xECK29x]

Loving the new TBL update so far. Been a while since i played with an updated DB..

Knowing how long you have been in the community it’s really great to hear you are enjoying it!

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

Knowing how long you have been in the community it’s really great to hear you are enjoying it!

It’s nice to see the community so strong. before when it was just the TBL group doing the databases, I would get a good 20-30 years into it before the new season came along.

After when you, BK, and even TBL started to put out new DBs, it became overwhelming for me and I just wanted to do something simple. That’s when I started to play with the first rosters that came with the game (2015 TBL fake names database) and went from there. I never had the HockeyEttan issue (which is another thing that’s worrisome with a long term save - even though I only have the NHL enabled??) and prospects develop fine for me.