Early Norris trophy candidates?

[olli]

It's gotta be Josh. Even the NHL confirms it.

Josh Norris Stats and News

I thought he was a D when he was first traded to ottawa

 

[FeatherHead]

What about last year then? What's your excuse for Josi getting it over Carlson despite Carlson putting up over a PPG and 10 more points then Josi?

The reality is, especially in today's game in order to be a truly high end Dman you have to be capable of generating offense for your team, no longer are Dmen in the league expected to just be big slow dummies who hit hard clear the crease and dump the puck out of the zone whenever they can. It's much more about controlling the game, owning the puck, and being able to efficiently transition from defense to offense quickly and smoothly.


Guys like Josi, Hedman, Makar, McAvoy are all high point producers, but that's not because they suck defensively and are just trying to play the game as 4th forwards. It's because they are all extremely talented skaters, and smart players who know how to flip the game around fast from defense to offense, they know when they can jump into plays and make offensive opportunities happen, but they also know when to play more consistently and hold back if the situation requires it.


The game is evolving literally every night. Try keeping up with it.

ok. So what. Carlson outpeoduced him by 10 points. This isn’t the trophy for the league’s scoring race. Scoring the most points still isn’t the sole factor in determining the Norris. It’s just too much of one. Josi is one of the league’s better defenders. Actually defending. Couple that with a very good offensive output and he was very deserving of the trophy.

 

[RealisticLeaf55]

Doughty, Hedman, and Makar.

Petry, Nurse and McAvoy also in proximity.

 

[LGB]

Makar. Faulk deserves consideration from St. Louis he's been outstanding.

 

[The Macho King]

Crosby barely spent any time on the PK. Does that mean he wasn't one of the top two-way forwards in the league since he didn't play the PK? You don't waste talent like Crosby and Makar on the PK.

There are 12 forwards on a roster. 6 Dmen.

Also - I mean yeah Crosby is not a top two-way forward.

 

[PAZ]

There are 12 forwards on a roster. 6 Dmen.

Also - I mean yeah Crosby is not a top two-way forward.

Crosby Selke votes:

2014 - 18th
2015 - 19th
2016 - 7th
2017 - 10th
2018 - 9th
2019 - 4th

The league disagrees with you.

 

[The Macho King]

Crosby Selke votes:

2014 - 18th
2015 - 19th
2016 - 7th
2017 - 10th
2018 - 9th
2019 - 4th

The league disagrees with you.

It doesn't take a ton of ballots to get you top 20th in Selke voting. The 4th place finish was weird but it was clearly media driven to explain how he was still OMG SO GOOD when so many players passed him by in scoring.

 

[Bounces R Way]

McAvoy has been incredible. Men want to be him, women want to be with him, a titan amongst mere mortals.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

It doesn't take a ton of ballots to get you top 20th in Selke voting. The 4th place finish was weird but it was clearly media driven to explain how he was still OMG SO GOOD when so many players passed him by in scoring.

Oh man, you really don't have any clue what you are talking about hey? This isn't just some act, yikes.

 

[rocketdan9]

McAvoy has been incredible. Men want to be him, women want to be with him, a true titan amongst mere mortals.

He has been skating like the wind this season

He has been a very strong 2 way D

Hedman is probably number 1. But I would put McAvoy above Makar due to the defense/pk aspect

 

[2020 Cup Champions]

McAvoy has been incredible. Men want to be him, women want to be with him, a true titan amongst mere mortals.

Thunder God is not impressed.

 

[Jets012]

But forreal Makar

 

[not a troll]

McAvoy has been incredible. Men want to be him, women want to be with him, a true titan amongst mere mortals.

It’s 2021. Men also want to be with him and women want to be him.

 

[Regal]

The obsession with PKing is funny. It's not a sign of two-way play since it's actually a one-way situation, and can usually be handled by lower level players who aren't as good 5v5. Sure, it's a benefit if your top defenseman is playing there and that needs to be taken into account but it has no bearing on how good a two-way player a defensman is 5v5 and shouldn't hold anyone back from being considered for the Norris. The benefit of a star player over a replacement level one on the PK is far lower than in other situations.

 

[Mogo]

Here ya go:

View attachment 399948

He only leads one category but is pretty competitive otherwise.

Ekblad might be able to make a good cases by continuing to score goals, something he has been the best of the group at:

View attachment 399949

Ekblad's relative to teammate numbers don't help his case, though.

View attachment 399950


This is all 5v5, though. It doesn't take into account how players are affecting the game through PK or PP. There might be something in those numbers which sway things. For me, Makar is still a clear stand out.

Thanks m8

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

I think Hedman, Makar, and McAvoy are the clear leaders at this point.

Indeed. A fun trio to watch.

 

[The Macho King]

The obsession with PKing is funny. It's not a sign of two-way play since it's actually a one-way situation, and can usually be handled by lower level players who aren't as good 5v5. Sure, it's a benefit if your top defenseman is playing there and that needs to be taken into account but it has no bearing on how good a two-way player a defensman is 5v5 and shouldn't hold anyone back from being considered for the Norris. The benefit of a star player over a replacement level one on the PK is far lower than in other situations.

For forwards you have a point. Point doesn't PK but no one would criticize a coach for saving him.

Dmen no. You only have 6. And at least 4 are going to see time. And generally the delta between your best D and worst D in that situation is significant. Maybe some teams are so deep that your 5 is good enough to replace the 1 in that situation, but that is incredibly rare.

And yeah - the value of Hedman in that situation is more than any #5 in the league. Its crucial for a Dman and pretending it's not is really dumb.

 

[Regal]

For forwards you have a point. Point doesn't PK but no one would criticize a coach for saving him.

Dmen no. You only have 6. And at least 4 are going to see time. And generally the delta between your best D and worst D in that situation is significant. Maybe some teams are so deep that your 5 is good enough to replace the 1 in that situation, but that is incredibly rare.

And yeah - the value of Hedman in that situation is more than any #5 in the league. Its crucial for a Dman and pretending it's not is really dumb.

It's a benefit, but it's really not crucial and pretending it is, is really dumb. You have 6 defensemen in every situation so I'm not sure why the PK it suddenly matters more. The delta is still going to be significantly more between 1 and 5 at 5v5 and on the PP than on the PK, where skill is less important. Even moreso when you factor in fatigue. Yea, teams tend to use only one dman on each PP unit these days but that also means you have more roster room for your lesser defensemen to be decent on the PK.

Hedman's PK ability and ice time is part of his value, but if another defensemen was better both 5v5 and on the PP, then putting a lot of stock into the PK is rather asinine. The PK is important, but individual players don't have nearly the same impact on it.

 

[NuxFan09]

But forreal Makar

If the Norris were awarded to the true best defensive defenseman then yes Severson would be my pick so far. Alas, we know it doesn't work like that.

Makar has the insane metrics plus provides the offense.

 

[13th Floor]

If the Norris were awarded to the true best defensive defenseman then yes Severson would be my pick so far. Alas, we know it doesn't work like that.

Makar has the insane metrics plus provides the offense.

No the answer would still be Hedman.

 

[FeatherHead]

Defense wins championships. In all sports. Give me the top 6 actual defenders in the game, and I don’t care what their contribution is on the offensive side of the rink. Hell, give me the top six defenders in the league and you can almost put any goaltender in the league in the net and they’re going to face 18-22 shots a night on average, or some absurdly low number. If you’re giving up goals, you don’t need many to win.

Martin Brodeur was a fantastic goaltender. But one has to wonder what he’s have been without Stevens and Niedermayer, neither of which were offensive dynamos. Those two were Norris level d-men.

 

[13th Floor]

Defense wins championships. In all sports. Give me the top 6 actual defenders in the game, and I don’t care what their contribution is on the offensive side of the rink. Hell, give me the top six defenders in the league and you can almost put any goaltender in the league in the net and they’re going to face 18-22 shots a night on average, or some absurdly low number. If you’re giving up goals, you don’t need many to win.

Martin Brodeur was a fantastic goaltender. But one has to wonder what he’s have been without Stevens and Niedermayer, neither of which were offensive dynamos. Those two were Norris level d-men.

I had a lot to write but then got to Niedermayer not being offensive and figured it's not worth it.

 

[KidLine93]

Honest question as I haven’t watched much of either team, but how has Makar been defensively?

Hedman is putting up better offensive numbers, more TOI, and is obviously great defensively. He seems like the clear front runner to me.

Hedman is the front runner. Makar is the shiny new toy though so hes getting all the attention.

 

[Martin Skoula]

For forwards you have a point. Point doesn't PK but no one would criticize a coach for saving him.

Dmen no. You only have 6. And at least 4 are going to see time. And generally the delta between your best D and worst D in that situation is significant. Maybe some teams are so deep that your 5 is good enough to replace the 1 in that situation, but that is incredibly rare.

And yeah - the value of Hedman in that situation is more than any #5 in the league. Its crucial for a Dman and pretending it's not is really dumb.

If icings were still a thing, you'd have a point. As it is, a guy like Polak is going to be more effective because all he has to do is make a hit and blindly dump the puck as hard as he can. You don't need to make a smart first pass, you don't need to skate it out, you just need to separate the puck and dump it anywhere there isn't an opponent. There's barely any neutral zone defense, your gaps barely matter, you just need to be physical and have >0 hockey sense to block a shot or two.

 

[Harvey Birdman]

Markstrom should get a vote or two for his hits.