Speculation: Duchene VS MacKinnon VS Landeskog *(Read OP before voting)

[chet1926]

This is a legit question...

So if we are offering Duchene for a high end dman, what high/higher end dman is actually available? They don't exactly grow on trees and sure as hell aren't offered in trade packages often. So realistically who do you think the Avs could even target?

 

[AvalancheFan19]

There is an argument to be made that the offense is much easier to fix through other avenues like drafting and free-agency than the defense.

Yes you most likely have to draft that #1 guy on the back end, but that is very difficult to do even when drafting said player at the top of the draft.

People also say that you should also pick BPA in the trade, because if later you have a surplus at one position and a need at another then you deal with it at that point in time.

Well with how difficult defense is to trade for, is that always the best choice?

I'd say this, if Roy and Sakic trade one of those guys for a defender. It will be much easier to replace the pure offensive production than it is to draft/develop a #1 defender.

More often that not you are right, offence is easier to replace than defence. A Gabriel Landeskog type player however, if very hard to replace. Duchene and Mackinnon are gamebreakers. The year we went to the playoffs Duchene had 70 points in 71 games. I have no idea why this guy gets the short of end of the stick. Mackinnon will develop into an absolute stud. The first 35 games of this season I was seriously considering him as a top 10 player. The wheels came off and I'm not sure why but hey, growing pains. Kids 20.

Roll EJ, Barrie, Beauch, Bigras, Zadorov and sign a vet/proben #5/6 and implement a system next year. Forget these long passes and flicks to the opposing team. Unfortunately, I don't think Roy is capable of doing that.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

This is a legit question...

So if we are offering Duchene for a high end dman, what high/higher end dman is actually available? They don't exactly grow on trees and sure as hell aren't offered in trade packages often. So realistically who do you think the Avs could even target?

A mix of young prospects/picks. Which is exactly why he shouldn't be traded.

 

[Ararana]

I choose Duchene, only if we HAVE to trade one. Having Mack as a #1 C and trying to find a #2 C will be the easiest solution going forward.

If they do end up trading Duchene, I'm going to be pissed that we probably could have gotten Seth Jones earlier in the year.

Plus going to Nashville probably wouldn't be the worse thing in the world for Duchene, he seemed to enjoy himself during the all star break.

 

[RockLobster]

Edited the Poll per Cobra's request.

It now asks "Which core forward would you choose to trade?"

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

Awesome idea, let's lose yet ANOTHER core forward from this lineup. We can go from having a core of Duchene, Landeskog, MacKinnon, Stastny and ROR to just two of Duchene, Landeskog and MacKinnon.

This is a core which can get the job done. Just equip them with the system to do it. We're handicapping ourselves every game with a system which by its very nature puts us at a disadvantage.

I can't vote because I wouldn't trade any of them. I really like the idea of them returning next year with Boedker and Rantanen on Duchy and MacK's wings. Or even moving Sods up and having MacK/Duchy on the wing.

 

[The Kingslayer]

Not cool with trading Mackinnon at all. I see what Seguin is doing in Dallas and I cant help but think Mackinnon can be that caliber player here for us one day. Of the three I would trade Duchene first but I dont want to do that either.

 

[missionAvs]

If I had to pick one it would be Dutchy but now because I want to. I'm absolutely against trading any of those guys. We should be adding top 6 players not subtracting them. If we can manage to keep all 3, bring Rantanen up full time next year, and keep Boedker then that's 5/6 and we look much better than when we started the year.

Edit: Honestly though, ask me again next week and I might answer differently since that's how close it is for me especially between MacK and Dutchy. Lando I wouldn't trade at all to be honest.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Edited the Poll per Cobra's request.

It now asks "Which core forward would you choose to trade?"

Thank you for fixing my booboo, lol.

I think that happen because I'm about as conflicted as everyone else with even having to be asked the question.

Unfortunately as even me and you have argued about before, it's one that we may be forced to face.

I never believed they would have a volatile enough attitude about this team to actually do it, but Roy is scary.

 

[chet1926]

A mix of young prospects/picks. Which is exactly why he shouldn't be traded.

Bingo! We have a winner, no one is going to give us an already established higher end dman. When we trade Duchene we better be prepared for a **** ass prospects return that we have to wait multiple years to see if it was any good or not, setting us back another 5 years if not more.

 

[AvalancheFan19]

Bingo! We have a winner, no one is going to give us an already established higher end dman. When we trade Duchene we better be prepared for a **** ass prospects return that we have to wait multiple years to see if it was any good or not, setting us back another 5 years if not more.

You mean we can't trade one of these forwards for a replica of talent and youth on the defensive end?

 

[CobraAcesS]

Not cool with trading Mackinnon at all. I see what Seguin is doing in Dallas and I cant help but think Mackinnon can be that caliber player here for us one day. Of the three I would trade Duchene first but I dont want to do that either.

Duchene is definitely the easier choice, but you're likely not going to materialize a trade that's worth trading Duchene.

I mean, if MacKinnon was able to pull someone like OEL or McDonagh. Then he broke out into a PPG player... It would be a lot easier to deal with than if Duchene was traded and the same thing happened yet we ended up with another Zadorov + Grigorenko + Compher + 2nd package IMO. Both Duchene and MacK have the potential to make us very sorry for trading either one, however as crazy as it sounds. I do actually believe that if a trade happens, we'd regret losing MacK less because of the return.

That's where I'm at anyways.

I think Duchene = a Hamonic +, and Mack is more likely to = OEL/McDonagh

This is a legit question...

So if we are offering Duchene for a high end dman, what high/higher end dman is actually available? They don't exactly grow on trees and sure as hell aren't offered in trade packages often. So realistically who do you think the Avs could even target?

I do believe you could potentially pull a true #1 with MacK, but maybe not. Lets say you call Phoenix about OEL & Duchene, and they say nah we're not trading him for Duchene, you have to offer us a franchise potential player in MacKinnon for our franchise defender.

What do you do?

 

[chet1926]

Duchene is definitely the easier choice, but you're likely not going to materialize a trade that's worth trading Duchene.

I mean, if MacKinnon was able to pull someone like OEL or McDonagh. Then he broke out into a PPG player... It would be a lot easier to deal with than if Duchene was traded and the same thing happened yet we ended up with another Zadorov + Grigorenko + Compher + 2nd package IMO. Both Duchene and MacK have the potential to make us very sorry for trading either one, however as crazy as it sounds. I do actually believe that if a trade happens, we'd regret losing MacK less because of the return.

That's where I'm at anyways.

This pretty sums up my feelings as well. Solid post. MacK's return would be much higher than Duchene's making the blow of losing him more tolerable because at least we got something decent back. Whereas Duchene moving would be similar to what ROR returned, which right now is a pretty meh return especially with it looking like Compher might not sign and pull the NCAA BS, so it hinges on Grigorenko and Zadorov taking huge leaps which may or may not happen.

 

[AvalancheFan19]

I do believe you could potentially pull a true #1 with MacK, but maybe not. Lets say you call Phoenix about OEL & Duchene, and they say nah we're not trading him for Duchene, you have to offer us a franchise potential player in MacKinnon for our franchise defender.

What do you do?

I pack Mackinnon's bags for him. I just don't believe any #1s are available unfortunately, not even for Mack.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

First it was ROR vs Stastny vs Duchene and now it's Duchene vs Landy vs Mackinnon.

How about we stop the bleeding of the core players and fix the obvious flaws in this team?

 

[CobraAcesS]

I pack Mackinnon's bags for him. I just don't believe any #1s are available unfortunately, not even for Mack.

Go ask NYR fans if they'd trade McDonagh for MacK still, I seen one bring it up again the other day.

It's fairly pointless to make an OEL thread on the main board lol, there is like three dedicated Phoenix fans around haha.

However, MacK does fit the age of their rebuild much better than OEL. There is no guarantee they are competitive while hes at his peak as he is now.

Then there is teams like Anaheim or or STL, who still have more than one #1 defender. Although I think Anaheim is more 'Duchene' territory. STL has been looking for a #1 center for so long, and has tried to use that mid level option guys like Stastny & Backes and what not for a long time. Do they believe another one of those in a Shatty for RNH is worth it?

With the depth they have and pure quality, would they really balk at something around Petro & MacK? Maybe, but maybe not. They probably wouldn't accept Duchene unless you are after Shatty or Pyrako (spelling).

Just to add in the difference between trading the two forwards IMO.

I haven't brought up Subban, but that's because I don't like him the same way some people do. I wouldn't trade Duchene for him, but that's another unpopular opinion. I'm not all about these pure offensive #1s.

 

[klozge]

Misread the question and chose MacKinnon. I wouldn't trade any of them.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Misread the question and chose MacKinnon. I wouldn't trade any of them.

It's a 'gun to your head' type of situation, that's exactly why I didn't put that option in there.

 

[klozge]

It's a 'gun to your head' type of situation, that's exactly why I didn't put that option in there.

In that case it would be Landeskog.

 

[chet1926]

Duchene is definitely the easier choice, but you're likely not going to materialize a trade that's worth trading Duchene.

I mean, if MacKinnon was able to pull someone like OEL or McDonagh. Then he broke out into a PPG player... It would be a lot easier to deal with than if Duchene was traded and the same thing happened yet we ended up with another Zadorov + Grigorenko + Compher + 2nd package IMO. Both Duchene and MacK have the potential to make us very sorry for trading either one, however as crazy as it sounds. I do actually believe that if a trade happens, we'd regret losing MacK less because of the return.

That's where I'm at anyways.

I think Duchene = a Hamonic +, and Mack is more likely to = OEL/McDonagh



I do believe you could potentially pull a true #1 with MacK, but maybe not. Lets say you call Phoenix about OEL & Duchene, and they say nah we're not trading him for Duchene, you have to offer us a franchise potential player in MacKinnon for our franchise defender.

What do you do?

That's a tough call. If Arizona offered me OEL straight up for MacK, no other pieces involved, I think I make the deal. Only because I think OEL is one of the 5 best dmen in the league. If were not talking one of the 5 best players at the position in the league then no deal.

For example, I don't trade MacK if the player we are offered is PK Subban. The only person I'd be willing to move for him is Duchene.

So basically it's a tough line to walk, and personally I don't think any higher end dmen even enter the equation as Duchene isn't good enough to warrant a top end guy and the likelihood of MacK being offered as trade bait is practically 0. So I'm not really sure what in the hell Roy thinks he'll be able to pull off by attempting to trade Duchene.

 

[ArWKo]

Ultimately, even if we can get a equal value defensive asset for one of these guys (which I doubt) it still isn't going to make a meaningful difference if they continue to play in a system with no discernible method for successfully working the breakout.

They MADE a "core forward for defense" trade already - it was the O'Reilly trade, so maybe they should give that a season to pan out before hitting the panic button and trading ANOTHER core forward. Unless for whatever reason they signed some deal with the devil that requires them to unload a #1/#2 center every damn offseason.

 

[klozge]

Ultimately, even if we can get a equal value defensive asset for one of these guys (which I doubt) it still isn't going to make a meaningful difference if they continue to play in a system with no discernible method for successfully working the breakout.

They MADE a "core forward for defense" trade already - it was the O'Reilly trade, so maybe they should give that a season to pan out before hitting the panic button and trading ANOTHER core forward. Unless for whatever reason they signed some deal with the devil that requires them to unload a #1/#2 center every damn offseason.

That's a very good point.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Ultimately, even if we can get a equal value defensive asset for one of these guys (which I doubt) it still isn't going to make a meaningful difference if they continue to play in a system with no discernible method for successfully working the breakout.

They MADE a "core forward for defense" trade already - it was the O'Reilly trade, so maybe they should give that a season to pan out before hitting the panic button and trading ANOTHER core forward. Unless for whatever reason they signed some deal with the devil that requires them to unload a #1/#2 center every damn offseason.

One thing that stood out to me not that long ago about Roy, was his comments about Zadorov when discussing leaving him in the minors.

He said something to the effect of "Letting our pride get in the way" "We could have kept him up and used him" or at least something to that effect.

Did they believe that he would come over and be a top four defender right away? Do they still believe they could have had more success this season if they had kept him in the NHL and in the top four?

Those comments seem to insinuate that, and I think he even mentioned something about Sakic being the one to push for sending Zadorov down while he might have kept him.

Does anyone else remember this collection of comments?

 

[The Kingslayer]

Duchene is definitely the easier choice, but you're likely not going to materialize a trade that's worth trading Duchene.

I mean, if MacKinnon was able to pull someone like OEL or McDonagh. Then he broke out into a PPG player... It would be a lot easier to deal with than if Duchene was traded and the same thing happened yet we ended up with another Zadorov + Grigorenko + Compher + 2nd package IMO. Both Duchene and MacK have the potential to make us very sorry for trading either one, however as crazy as it sounds. I do actually believe that if a trade happens, we'd regret losing MacK less because of the return.

That's where I'm at anyways.

I think Duchene = a Hamonic +, and Mack is more likely to = OEL/McDonagh



I do believe you could potentially pull a true #1 with MacK, but maybe not. Lets say you call Phoenix about OEL & Duchene, and they say nah we're not trading him for Duchene, you have to offer us a franchise potential player in MacKinnon for our franchise defender.

What do you do?

Ahh ok I see where your coming from. Indeed the sting would be less depending on who we get of course.

 

[ABasin]

****To be clear, this is a 'Gun to your head' type scenario. The reason I chose to leave out the option of "Don't trade either" or something like that is to force a choice. Some people have voted based on a different assumption.


I'm genuinely curious as to who we value the most long term.

In another thread I said that my opinion on keeping Duchene versus MacKinnon was not a popular one. Well IceRat said that's not as unpopular as I might think.

Personally for me I think the only reason to trade one of the three core forwards would be in order to pull a upgrade at defense, enough of one that would be an upgrade on everyone we currently have.

So to me, I think MacKinnon is really the only way that realistically happens.

So again, if this is a legit conversation or worry who would you prefer to use, and for what reason?


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I'm not including Barrie or Varly because they are the easiest answer and cause the least amount of pain for various reasons.

Cobra, can we have that voting option of 'none of them'? Please?

There's a pretty massive drop in talent from those three down to the next forward. Ugly scenario.