Speculation: Duchene trade looking back

[SpezDispenser]

I’m not saying that now that Boedker has been traded for that Dorion will now trade Karlsson. I’m saying that Boedker never would have been targeted if Dorion didn’t already know that he was going to deal Karlsson. To me it only makes sense from Dorions perspective if the team has already made up their minds on EK. With the amount of financial ambiguity that has plagued the Sens recently, allocating 6 million dollars to a player when you don’t have to just doesn’t make sense. If they want to sign the trio, that 6 million would be better spent on their extensions rather than a tweener like Boedker. If I’m Dorion, and I wanted the trio signed, Vanek on a very cheap one year deal makes way more sense than Boedker for example.

It's an intriguing discussion. I don't think you can do better than 3 million a year real dollars for a player like Boedker, I think you'd be settling for someone like Vanek - who I can tell you our coach would not like and would not give prime minutes to. I also think it's going to be a tough sell for UFAs to sign here, so you're looking at the dregs on July 1-3. Might as well turn a disgraced player into a short term, low money risk that can actually help the team than just another guy who you don't really want, but will settle with. Boedker is made for Boucher's system. I don't necessarily love Boucher, but I think the fit is there for sure.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Agree,if Col get Hughes ,then all the Col fans can rip even more into us .....Until then we still got the best player in the trade

We'll see about that. I think Sens fans are letting the Duchene from the last 40 games of the season really cloud there judgment on who Duchene the player really is. Completely forgetting about his first 20 games with the team.


And I'm sure you'll come back with the arguments about how Duchene is a #1C and he proved it in those 40 games, I'm clueless to suggest otherwise and all of that.... Fact of the matter is I(And countless other Avs fans) have watched Duchene for the last decade now go through seasons exactly like the one he just went through. The one where he puts together a 35-40 game stretch where you're left with no doubt that he's a legit #1C and a potential Top 10 Center in the league. But then he follows that up with a 25-30 game stretch where he struggles to record 5 assists. That's just who Duchene is. When he's on he's on and an elite player, but as soon as he goes through even the smallest stretch of struggling, it always snowballs out of control and he goes ice, ice cold for a very long period of time.


You can argue against it all you want but like I said we Avs fans seen this story for years play itself out. Only once in his career did he really put it all together for a full season. That was the miracle season for the Avs where literally everything went right. Since then it's just been a roller coaster for Duchene and there's really nothing to suggest that's going to change now.


Personally, I would prefer the consistency and the better two way game of Turris over Duchene. Neither guy is a 1C on a team trying to win a cup or even contend for playoffs. Both guys are best suited as quality 2Cs and in that role I much prefer the consistency of Turris over Duchene. And I felt this way long before Duchene was traded to Ottawa. And I wasn't the only Avs fan who felt this way either, lots of posts in our trade threads last summer said the same things.



Hell at this point I wouldn't even trade Sam Girard for either Turris or Duchene. That one piece alone made the trade more then worth it for the Avs. He's going to be a Top 4 Dman in the NHL for a long time, with the upside still of a top pairing guy. And again there's a number of people who feel this way.



It's good that Ottawa is happy with Duchene. Hopefully he works out for you guys long term. I have my doubts that he does but we'll see. I still think regardless the Sens gave up far too much to get him. Giving up Turris, a now unprotected 1st and 3rd round pick, and a very good prospect in Bowers is just way too much for at best a marginal upgrade over Turris.

 

[John Eichel da GOAT]

We'll see about that. I think Sens fans are letting the Duchene from the last 40 games of the season really cloud there judgment on who Duchene the player really is. Completely forgetting about his first 20 games with the team.


And I'm sure you'll come back with the arguments about how Duchene is a #1C and he proved it in those 40 games, I'm clueless to suggest otherwise and all of that.... Fact of the matter is I(And countless other Avs fans) have watched Duchene for the last decade now go through seasons exactly like the one he just went through. The one where he puts together a 35-40 game stretch where you're left with no doubt that he's a legit #1C and a potential Top 10 Center in the league. But then he follows that up with a 25-30 game stretch where he struggles to record 5 assists. That's just who Duchene is. When he's on he's on and an elite player, but as soon as he goes through even the smallest stretch of struggling, it always snowballs out of control and he goes ice, ice cold for a very long period of time.


You can argue against it all you want but like I said we Avs fans seen this story for years play itself out. Only once in his career did he really put it all together for a full season. That was the miracle season for the Avs where literally everything went right. Since then it's just been a roller coaster for Duchene and there's really nothing to suggest that's going to change now.


Personally, I would prefer the consistency and the better two way game of Turris over Duchene. Neither guy is a 1C on a team trying to win a cup or even contend for playoffs. Both guys are best suited as quality 2Cs and in that role I much prefer the consistency of Turris over Duchene. And I felt this way long before Duchene was traded to Ottawa. And I wasn't the only Avs fan who felt this way either, lots of posts in our trade threads last summer said the same things.



Hell at this point I wouldn't even trade Sam Girard for either Turris or Duchene. That one piece alone made the trade more then worth it for the Avs. He's going to be a Top 4 Dman in the NHL for a long time, with the upside still of a top pairing guy. And again there's a number of people who feel this way.



It's good that Ottawa is happy with Duchene. Hopefully he works out for you guys long term. I have my doubts that he does but we'll see. I still think regardless the Sens gave up far too much to get him. Giving up Turris, a now unprotected 1st and 3rd round pick, and a very good prospect in Bowers is just way too much for at best a marginal upgrade over Turris.

This guy gets it^

 

[topshelf15]

We'll see about that. I think Sens fans are letting the Duchene from the last 40 games of the season really cloud there judgment on who Duchene the player really is. Completely forgetting about his first 20 games with the team.


And I'm sure you'll come back with the arguments about how Duchene is a #1C and he proved it in those 40 games, I'm clueless to suggest otherwise and all of that.... Fact of the matter is I(And countless other Avs fans) have watched Duchene for the last decade now go through seasons exactly like the one he just went through. The one where he puts together a 35-40 game stretch where you're left with no doubt that he's a legit #1C and a potential Top 10 Center in the league. But then he follows that up with a 25-30 game stretch where he struggles to record 5 assists. That's just who Duchene is. When he's on he's on and an elite player, but as soon as he goes through even the smallest stretch of struggling, it always snowballs out of control and he goes ice, ice cold for a very long period of time.


You can argue against it all you want but like I said we Avs fans seen this story for years play itself out. Only once in his career did he really put it all together for a full season. That was the miracle season for the Avs where literally everything went right. Since then it's just been a roller coaster for Duchene and there's really nothing to suggest that's going to change now.


Personally, I would prefer the consistency and the better two way game of Turris over Duchene. Neither guy is a 1C on a team trying to win a cup or even contend for playoffs. Both guys are best suited as quality 2Cs and in that role I much prefer the consistency of Turris over Duchene. And I felt this way long before Duchene was traded to Ottawa. And I wasn't the only Avs fan who felt this way either, lots of posts in our trade threads last summer said the same things.



Hell at this point I wouldn't even trade Sam Girard for either Turris or Duchene. That one piece alone made the trade more then worth it for the Avs. He's going to be a Top 4 Dman in the NHL for a long time, with the upside still of a top pairing guy. And again there's a number of people who feel this way.



It's good that Ottawa is happy with Duchene. Hopefully he works out for you guys long term. I have my doubts that he does but we'll see. I still think regardless the Sens gave up far too much to get him. Giving up Turris, a now unprotected 1st and 3rd round pick, and a very good prospect in Bowers is just way too much for at best a marginal upgrade over Turris.

The short end is ,did we upgrade on a player that was older and wanted a long term contract???Yes,did we keep our best prospects out of the deal??Yes...The potenial of giving up a top 5 pick not withstanding Ottawa didnt lose anything it couldnt afford to lose...

This constant reassurance Col fans seem to want to give themselves,at our expense isnt nessesary ,you guys got fair to maybe more than fair value for a very good player...

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

The short end is ,did we upgrade on a player that was older and wanted a long term contract???Yes,did we keep our best prospects out of the deal??Yes...The potenial of giving up a top 5 pick not withstanding Ottawa didnt lose anything it couldnt afford to lose...

This constant reassurance Col fans seem to want to give themselves,at our expense isnt nessesary ,you guys got fair to maybe more than fair value for a very good player...

Like I said. Ask Avs fans who have watched Duchene play for the last decade. You'll be surprised at just how many of them will argue that you didn't upgrade at all. Duchene will always have the potential to be an actual upgrade... After 10 years he hasn't shown that he'll ever actually reach that level at a level consistent enough for it to be true.


But that's not what you want to hear so you're going to continue with your statement posts that provide no value. Carry on...

 

[topshelf15]

Like I said. Ask Avs fans who have watched Duchene play for the last decade. You'll be surprised at just how many of them will argue that you didn't upgrade at all. Duchene will always have the potential to be an actual upgrade... After 10 years he hasn't shown that he'll ever actually reach that level at a level consistent enough for it to be true.


But that's not what you want to hear so you're going to continue with your statement posts that provide no value. Carry on...

And you want exactly ???Some vindication ???Please just stop with insisting we got hosed statements and maybe i wont call out your bullshit ok

 

[topshelf15]

So again without the top 5 pick,which may not happen???What did Ottawa give up in the deal???This was as big a quantity for quality deal as it gets ..Maybe one of those prospects pans out and becomes better than Duchene,maybe not..But the senseless bashing of our team based on what may happen in the coming years needs to end ....

 

[Cousin Eddie]

There was a small rumor in September that Ottawa wanted to trade Turris for Duchene. There were many Avs fans who were completely ok with that trade straight up. Instead they got Turris and Bowers and Hammond and a 1st and a 3rd. Then on top of it they basically on paper flipped Turris for Girard, Kamenev and a 2nd.

You won’t find an Avs fan out there who aren’t still doing cartwheels over this trade. Especially when you look at how bad the Senators look to be as they hold their 1st.

 

[YP44]

i know it is still early but just look at this trade.
The avs gave up a guy that is very overrated in duchene. What they got for a second line centre?

A first
A second
A third
Shane Bowers (2017 first)
Sam Girard (super stud d prospect)
Vladislav kamenev (future second line centre)
Andrew Hammond (solid backup goalie, meh)

I mean kamenev alone could end up better than duchene, who knows. I think Girard is going to be special. Plus basically two first rounders with Bowers involved...

I think turris alone is worth more than duchene if you look at their success on their new teams..

How did Sakic ever pull this one out?? Everyone was ripping him over mishandling the duchene situation but wow!!! He murdered it.

Could this be one of the best trades ever for the avs since they have been a team? Or even from the Quebec days...

There was a certain Lindros trade that set the team up for multiple cup runs.

 

[tucker3434]

So again without the top 5 pick,which may not happen???What did Ottawa give up in the deal???This was as big a quantity for quality deal as it gets ..Maybe one of those prospects pans out and becomes better than Duchene,maybe not..But the senseless bashing of our team based on what may happen in the coming years needs to end ....

Turris. He was a pretty big piece.

 

[topshelf15]

There was a small rumor in September that Ottawa wanted to trade Turris for Duchene. There were many Avs fans who were completely ok with that trade straight up. Instead they got Turris and Bowers and Hammond and a 1st and a 3rd. Then on top of it they basically on paper flipped Turris for Girard, Kamenev and a 2nd.

You won’t find an Avs fan out there who aren’t still doing cartwheels over this trade. Especially when you look at how bad the Senators look to be as they hold their 1st.

No there werent,the major piece requested was one one Thomas Chabot

 

[topshelf15]

Turris. He was a pretty big piece.

So a UFA forward neither team wanted to ink to a multi year deal,was the major piece???Honestly who did we give up that is better than Duchene or better than Chabot the piece most Avs fans wanted???

 

[tucker3434]

So a UFA forward neither team wanted to ink to a multi year deal,was the major piece???Honestly who did we give up that is better than Duchene or better than Chabot the piece most Avs fans wanted???

Turris is the reason we were able to get Girard which is the piece we wanted most in this deal, so he’s far from irrelevant. Realistically, he’s only a slight downgrade from Duchene. So if Duchene is such a great pickup, you can’t ignore that you had to give an almost-Duchene to get him.

 

[topshelf15]

Turris is the reason we were able to get Girard which is the piece we wanted most in this deal, so he’s far from irrelevant. Realistically, he’s only a slight downgrade from Duchene. So if Duchene is such a great pickup, you can’t ignore that you had to give an almost-Duchene to get him.

Lets make a poll and see who hold more value???Duchene or Girard.....

 

[tucker3434]

Lets make a poll and see who hold more value???Duchene or Girard.....

I don’t know what that’d prove. He was one of about 7 assets we received in the deal. But if you want to make a 1 for 1 poll from this deal, I’d imagine the Sens 2019 1st currently has more value than Duchene.

 

[topshelf15]

I don’t know what that’d prove. He was one of about 7 assets we received in the deal. But if you want to make a 1 for 1 poll from this deal, I’d imagine the Sens 2019 1st currently has more value than Duchene.

Again ,what doesnt make this a quantity for quality deal???The possible top 5 pick that may or not happen that would be a given...

But otherwise we gave fair value on a very good top 6 player that is still in his 20,s,and can play center and score 30 goals....We didnt give up any of our best prospects like one Thomas Chabot,and that does hold value to us as well ...

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

So a UFA forward neither team wanted to ink to a multi year deal,was the major piece???Honestly who did we give up that is better than Duchene or better than Chabot the piece most Avs fans wanted???

[MOD]


Countless people are in here telling you we prefer Turris to Duchene. You're just choosing to ignore those posts. [MOD]



As for the Duchene/Girard poll. I'm sure a lot of people who haven't watched Girard every game for his last 70 games will take Duchene simply on name sake alone. Once again, you wont find many Avs fans who would reverse that trade just involving those two pieces alone.


I'm done responding to you. [MOD]

 

[SpezDispenser]

Turris is the reason we were able to get Girard which is the piece we wanted most in this deal, so he’s far from irrelevant. Realistically, he’s only a slight downgrade from Duchene. So if Duchene is such a great pickup, you can’t ignore that you had to give an almost-Duchene to get him.

Which one is the almost Duchene? It 100% isn't Turris, believe me. And I like Turris a lot, but again, not even remotely close.

I understand that Ottawa paid a lot, but they weren't satisfied with Turris as a 1C - and he was about to be paid like one, so they upgraded him. At the time, the 1st was generally shrugged off, it's just now that it hold major value - and even then, a lot can happen in the course of a year. Turris for Duchene - any day of the week. Turris + 1st + 3rd + B prospect - any day of the week. It's only when Ottawa crapped the bed - because of bad work by our GM bolstering our D and a locker room drama that got solved this week, that the pick took on value.

I'd still take that risk for an elite player like Duchene - any day. And in the end, isn't that all that matter? Ottawa got the player they wanted, sent a 1st - which is always risky - and now they have to wait and see what happens. That's life.

 

[topshelf15]

[MOD]

Countless people are in here telling you we prefer Turris to Duchene. You're just choosing to ignore those posts. [MOD]



As for the Duchene/Girard poll. I'm sure a lot of people who haven't watched Girard every game for his last 70 games will take Duchene simply on name sake alone. Once again, you wont find many Avs fans who would reverse that trade just involving those two pieces alone.


I'm done responding to you. [MOD]

[MOD]How is this deal not a quantity for quality deal??What if you get the 24th OA next season and none of those supposed blue chippers pan out then what??Are you guys wanting us to constantly drill you guys on and on about how you screwed up ???

[MOD]

 

[branch]

[MOD]

Countless people are in here telling you we prefer Turris to Duchene. You're just choosing to ignore those posts. [MOD]



As for the Duchene/Girard poll. I'm sure a lot of people who haven't watched Girard every game for his last 70 games will take Duchene simply on name sake alone. Once again, you wont find many Avs fans who would reverse that trade just involving those two pieces alone.


I'm done responding to you. [MOD]

Obviously Colorado got a great return I don’t think we need to hear anything more that hasn’t been said on behalf of Avs fans ad nauseum for the past 7 months. Sakic return=good Matt Duchene=good. Just let it go. We’re already dead, Joe Sakic killed us.

 

[tucker3434]

Which one is the almost Duchene? It 100% isn't Turris, believe me. And I like Turris a lot, but again, not even remotely close.

I understand that Ottawa paid a lot, but they weren't satisfied with Turris as a 1C - and he was about to be paid like one, so they upgraded him. At the time, the 1st was generally shrugged off, it's just now that it hold major value - and even then, a lot can happen in the course of a year. Turris for Duchene - any day of the week. Turris + 1st + 3rd + B prospect - any day of the week. It's only when Ottawa crapped the bed - because of bad work by our GM bolstering our D and a locker room drama that got solved this week, that the pick took on value.

I'd still take that risk for an elite player like Duchene - any day. And in the end, isn't that all that matter? Ottawa got the player they wanted, sent a 1st - which is always risky - and now they have to wait and see what happens. That's life.

Not remotely close? Really? And as bad as I always wanted him to be, Duchene isn’t elite. He has the ability but not the consistency, and if he hasn’t found it almost 10 years in, I don’t think he ever will.

 

[SpezDispenser]

Not remotely close? Really? And as bad as I always wanted him to be, Duchene isn’t elite. He has the ability but not the consistency, and if he hasn’t found it almost 10 years in, I don’t think he ever will.

No, not even close.

What separated Turris from being a true 1C - which he still might be for some teams - is that he didn't go into corners and really fight for the pucks the way Duchene does, nor did he (often) carry the puck in and create plays out of nothing - which Duchene does a lot. The strength seems to be lacking for Turris, but again, for Duchene it's part of his game. In close, Duchene's ability to lift the puck quickly and accurately are incredible. Alfie could do it, but really, not many other Senators forwards have ever been able to do what he does.

I agree about the consistency, although with the proviso that for the first 20 games or so, he was playing a great game but there were no results. I guess it translates the same way into a consistency problem, but I really have no issues with it if the player is making things happen and the results aren't there.

 

[SpezDispenser]

Obviously Colorado got a great return I don’t think we need to hear anything more that hasn’t been said on behalf of Avs fans ad nauseum for the past 7 months. Sakic return=good Matt Duchene=good. Just let it go. We’re already dead, Joe Sakic killed us.

I was gonna say the same. People take it way too personally. It was a good transaction - right up until the part Ottawa soiled themselves and put themselves in a position to blow going forward (I still like the trade, because I friggin love Duchene).

 

[tucker3434]

No, not even close.

What separated Turris from being a true 1C - which he still might be for some teams - is that he didn't go into corners and really fight for the pucks the way Duchene does, nor did he (often) carry the puck in and create plays out of nothing - which Duchene does a lot. The strength seems to be lacking for Turris, but again, for Duchene it's part of his game. In close, Duchene's ability to lift the puck quickly and accurately are incredible. Alfie could do it, but really, not many other Senators forwards have ever been able to do what he does.

I agree about the consistency, although with the proviso that for the first 20 games or so, he was playing a great game but there were no results. I guess it translates the same way into a consistency problem, but I really have no issues with it if the player is making things happen and the results aren't there.

Yeah, that’s Duchene. A lot of people that never watch him try to say it’s attitude or effort based. It isn’t. He’s always putting the effort in. He just goes through long stretches where he can’t buy a point. You’d think it was an anomaly if it didn’t happen to him every year but one

 

[SpezDispenser]

Yeah, that’s Duchene. A lot of people that never watch him try to say it’s attitude or effort based. It isn’t. He’s always putting the effort in. He just goes through long stretches where he can’t buy a point. You’d think it was an anomaly if it didn’t happen to him every year but one

That sucks. I wonder why that happens. With the skill set he has, you would expect the only way he'd stop producing is if he stopped driving the net. Well, we'll have to hope it stops next year. Maybe he and Stone can mess some things up and avoid the long stretch.